Denominations?

[Dragoon]

When one follows the Holy Spirits teachings, and not their own understanding, there are no personal opinions. This is one thing you fail to recognize. Yet, there is not one person who can follow His Spirit perfectly, for we are still flesh and blood, where we see in a mirror, dimly, or we see through a glass, darkly, depending on which version you choose to read.

How do you assure yourself that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not just following your own understanding?

Does scripture tell us how know that we are following the Spirit of Truth?

I think it does:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Please note what John says about who the 'we' are:

Our sins are forgiven by God, not by men.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)

It is Jesus Christ alone who forgives sin.

...Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:1-2)

We must walk as He did.

Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. (1 John 2:6)

Does not love the world.

Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. (1 John 2:15-16)

Those anointed with the Spirit know the truth... not only a few priests.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth (1 John 2:20)

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

(1 John 2:27)

The Catholic Church is part of the origin of Christianity.

It has and continues to do many good works.

Salvation never lay with the Catholic Church though... but with Jesus Christ alone.

[Smalcald]

But Protestantism is not a Church.

It depends on your view of what the Church is in particular. There are many non-Catholic Churches that are apostate so yeah if you include them we have some real problems.

The core Truth of Christ has indeed been brought to us by the Apostles and is taught in truth in many Churches. Minor contradictions don't take away from that fact.

Jesus did build a Church. How do you determine if your Church is being led in the fullness of Truth?

What does the fullness of Truth mean? How do we determine if a Church body is true or not? Do we base it on actions, teachings or history, what would be the attributes of the one true Church that Christ built?

A Church being led in the fullness of Truth means that all of it's doctrines are true and guided by the Holy Spirit.

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines then we know that one or both are not being led in the fullness of Truth.

Is Truth based on doctrine alone or do faith action and the Holy Spirit matter? Once we are beyond the basics of the Christian faith, meaning acceptance of the Universal Creed's, I am not sure doctrine is that massively important. Doctrine will not save any individual in and of itself.

[OneLight]

When one follows the Holy Spirits teachings, and not their own understanding, there are no personal opinions. This is one thing you fail to recognize. Yet, there is not one person who can follow His Spirit perfectly, for we are still flesh and blood, where we see in a mirror, dimly, or we see through a glass, darkly, depending on which version you choose to read.

How do you assure yourself that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not just following your own understanding?

Does scripture tell us how know that we are following the Spirit of Truth?

I think it does:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

This is what many have a hard time with. When God speaks to you, you know it. He never contradicts Himself or scripture. If one is in tune with His Spirit, it becomes easier to know when He speaks and when you speak. There is no foolproof way to prove it until the action begins to bear fruit or it causes harm. Then you will know. The same question can be asked about anyone who studies scripture. How do you know? How do you know you are saved? You hold your life up to scripture, so it is when you learn something new. You hold it up against scripture.

Yes, it does, but I would look at the fullness of scripture and not just one verse ... 1 John 4:1-6

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

God tells you how to test the spirits. Do they tell you what the Church tells you? Do you listen to those sent by Jesus.

You claim that you know when God speaks to you. Does that mean that everyone who believes something different is not listening to God, or that God is telling different people different things?

Who did Christ ask the Father to send to testify of Him, to teach us, to guide us in all truth, to comfort us, to empower us, to change us, and to give us gifts and offices in which to operate? IT was not the church, but the Holy Spirit.

As I told you before, we see through a glass darkly. I also will add that we are to search the scripture to find if what we believe is of Him or not. It would be best if a discussion on the subject be done in love, as Christ commands, where iron will sharpen iron, even if some sparks fly.

By your questions you show me that you don't feel capable to discern if what someone is telling you is right or wrong. Instead of prayerfully searching scripture for yourself, would you go to your church for an answer, accepting whatever they give as an answer? If this is your course of action, how do you know what the church tells you is right or not?

[Fez]

When one follows the Holy Spirits teachings, and not their own understanding, there are no personal opinions. This is one thing you fail to recognize. Yet, there is not one person who can follow His Spirit perfectly, for we are still flesh and blood, where we see in a mirror, dimly, or we see through a glass, darkly, depending on which version you choose to read.

How do you assure yourself that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not just following your own understanding?

Does scripture tell us how know that we are following the Spirit of Truth?

I think it does:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

This is what many have a hard time with. When God speaks to you, you know it. He never contradicts Himself or scripture. If one is in tune with His Spirit, it becomes easier to know when He speaks and when you speak. There is no foolproof way to prove it until the action begins to bear fruit or it causes harm. Then you will know. The same question can be asked about anyone who studies scripture. How do you know? How do you know you are saved? You hold your life up to scripture, so it is when you learn something new. You hold it up against scripture.

Yes, it does, but I would look at the fullness of scripture and not just one verse ... 1 John 4:1-6

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

God tells you how to test the spirits. Do they tell you what the Church tells you? Do you listen to those sent by Jesus.

You claim that you know when God speaks to you. Does that mean that everyone who believes something different is not listening to God, or that God is telling different people different things?

Who did Christ ask the Father to send to testify of Him, to teach us, to guide us in all truth, to comfort us, to empower us, to change us, and to give us gifts and offices in which to operate? IT was not the church, but the Holy Spirit.

As I told you before, we see through a glass darkly. I also will add that we are to search the scripture to find if what we believe is of Him or not. It would be best if a discussion on the subject be done in love, as Christ commands, where iron will sharpen iron, even if some sparks fly.

By your questions you show me that you don't feel capable to discern if what someone is telling you is right or wrong. Instead of prayerfully searching scripture for yourself, would you go to your church for an answer, accepting whatever they give as an answer? If this is your course of action, how do you know what the church tells you is right or not?

You are still confusing the words of Jesus to the apostles with more general teachings.

The promises made to the leaders of the Church are not meant for you and I.

You want to appoint yourself as leader, but that is not scriptural nor is it how the Church has operated for 2000 years.

Our task is to listen to the message of those sent by Jesus, not to try to create our own message.

Ever heard of the Borgia's? Man they sure appointed themselves, often by the use of poison, knife, war etc.

Everyone a cardinal, every cardinal wanting to be the Pope

[OneLight]

When one follows the Holy Spirits teachings, and not their own understanding, there are no personal opinions. This is one thing you fail to recognize. Yet, there is not one person who can follow His Spirit perfectly, for we are still flesh and blood, where we see in a mirror, dimly, or we see through a glass, darkly, depending on which version you choose to read.

How do you assure yourself that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not just following your own understanding?

Does scripture tell us how know that we are following the Spirit of Truth?

I think it does:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

This is what many have a hard time with. When God speaks to you, you know it. He never contradicts Himself or scripture. If one is in tune with His Spirit, it becomes easier to know when He speaks and when you speak. There is no foolproof way to prove it until the action begins to bear fruit or it causes harm. Then you will know. The same question can be asked about anyone who studies scripture. How do you know? How do you know you are saved? You hold your life up to scripture, so it is when you learn something new. You hold it up against scripture.

Yes, it does, but I would look at the fullness of scripture and not just one verse ... 1 John 4:1-6

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

God tells you how to test the spirits. Do they tell you what the Church tells you? Do you listen to those sent by Jesus.

You claim that you know when God speaks to you. Does that mean that everyone who believes something different is not listening to God, or that God is telling different people different things?

Who did Christ ask the Father to send to testify of Him, to teach us, to guide us in all truth, to comfort us, to empower us, to change us, and to give us gifts and offices in which to operate? IT was not the church, but the Holy Spirit.

As I told you before, we see through a glass darkly. I also will add that we are to search the scripture to find if what we believe is of Him or not. It would be best if a discussion on the subject be done in love, as Christ commands, where iron will sharpen iron, even if some sparks fly.

By your questions you show me that you don't feel capable to discern if what someone is telling you is right or wrong. Instead of prayerfully searching scripture for yourself, would you go to your church for an answer, accepting whatever they give as an answer? If this is your course of action, how do you know what the church tells you is right or not?

You are still confusing the words of Jesus to the apostles with more general teachings.

The promises made to the leaders of the Church are not meant for you and I.

You want to appoint yourself as leader, but that is not scriptural nor is it how the Church has operated for 2000 years.

Our task is to listen to the message of those sent by Jesus, not to try to create our own message.

I am not confusing anything, You are denying the fulness God offers. Your only defense is to accuse me of appointing myself as a leader when Christ is the only true leader there is. He gives us a gift, His Holy Spirit, and you fear to accept it because it may go against your church doctrine? What a loss for you and all those who your church has placed this burden upon. You talk about my appointing leadership on myself where I never once remotely inferred such a thing, while all along you have placed it on a denomination that has strangled Gods people by telling them they can't understand scripture and need to have someone tell them what God is saying. No wonder you live in such fear.

I do so pray that God removes this burden from around your neck so you can truly look up and realize that He is your Father and has offered you all He has. Do you not understand that we are sons of God?

[Guest jpendl10]

"Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and caspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven."

See Also: Matt. 22:14; Acts 9:5; 26:14; 1 Pet. 5:3 (1-3)

[OldShep]

"Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and caspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Hence many are called, but few are chosen.

No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;

That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death.

Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy cconfidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven."

See Also: Matt. 22:14; Acts 9:5; 26:14; 1 Pet. 5:3 (1-3)

Matthew 22:14

Many are called, but few are chosen. - Our Saviour often uses this expression. It was probably proverbial. The Jews had been the first to be called, but few of them had been chosen to life. The great mass of the nation was wicked, and they showed it by their lives they refused to beleive in Chirst, so that they were not chosen to salvation. The Gentiles also were invited to be saved, Isa_45:22.

Nation after nation has been called; but few, few have yet to showed that they were real Christians, the elect of God. It is also true that many who are in the church may prove to be without the wedding garment. Many may show that they were not the chosen of God. This remark in the 14th verse is the inference from the “whole parable,” and not just the part about the man without the wedding garment. It does not mean, therefore, that the great mass in the church are simply called and not chosen, or are hypocrites; but the great mass in “the human family,” in the time of Christ, who had been “called,” had rejected the mercy of God.

It does not have anything to do with the priesthood, it has to do with individaul salvation, which leads all of those who accept it, to be adopted son's of God. Which means all can turn to Abba Father without a middle man called a Priest.

Matthew 22:14

Mat_7:13-14, Mat_20:16; Luk_13:23-27 see below.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Mat 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Mat 20:16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

Luk 13:23 Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" He said to them,

Luk 13:24 "Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

Luk 13:25 Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.'

Luk 13:26 "Then you will say, 'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.'

Luk 13:27 "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!'

By the way, I believe that there are a number of well defined Denominations out there in the world and all that meet the requirements of teaching the main core of Salvation to those members of the church are doing God's work. The differences in the customs we may follow is not enough to cause such church to be seen as anything other then a true christain church of Jesus.

May Christ Jesus Bless You All.

Dennis.

[nebula]

When one says "charismatic" one thinks of speaking in tongues, experiencing God's presence in such a way that you fall to the floor, prophecying, etc.

How much of that existed before the Azusa Street meetings?

Charisms

799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church's shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm

I fail to see how this answers the question I gave.

The charismatics within the Catholic Church are results of the Azusa Street Outpouring, same as with the Charismatics in all other churches.

And if you want to talk about miracles, look up Bethel Church in Redding, California.

[nebula]

My point is that the charismatic movement of the Spirit is much broader and older than some modern sects history. Charismatic gifts have always been part of the Church.

The sites you gave were poor evidence of the Body of Christ receiving the fullness of the Spirit.

Oh, the gifts were there, ever since the outpouring on the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) in Acts 2. But "the Church" leaders chose doctrine and ritual and control methods over the moving and ministering of the Holy Spirit.

A few received Him. But the majority were alienated from Him.

[OneLight]

When one follows the Holy Spirits teachings, and not their own understanding, there are no personal opinions. This is one thing you fail to recognize. Yet, there is not one person who can follow His Spirit perfectly, for we are still flesh and blood, where we see in a mirror, dimly, or we see through a glass, darkly, depending on which version you choose to read.

How do you assure yourself that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not just following your own understanding?

Does scripture tell us how know that we are following the Spirit of Truth?

I think it does:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

This is what many have a hard time with. When God speaks to you, you know it. He never contradicts Himself or scripture. If one is in tune with His Spirit, it becomes easier to know when He speaks and when you speak. There is no foolproof way to prove it until the action begins to bear fruit or it causes harm. Then you will know. The same question can be asked about anyone who studies scripture. How do you know? How do you know you are saved? You hold your life up to scripture, so it is when you learn something new. You hold it up against scripture.

Yes, it does, but I would look at the fullness of scripture and not just one verse ... 1 John 4:1-6

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

God tells you how to test the spirits. Do they tell you what the Church tells you? Do you listen to those sent by Jesus.

You claim that you know when God speaks to you. Does that mean that everyone who believes something different is not listening to God, or that God is telling different people different things?

Who did Christ ask the Father to send to testify of Him, to teach us, to guide us in all truth, to comfort us, to empower us, to change us, and to give us gifts and offices in which to operate? IT was not the church, but the Holy Spirit.

As I told you before, we see through a glass darkly. I also will add that we are to search the scripture to find if what we believe is of Him or not. It would be best if a discussion on the subject be done in love, as Christ commands, where iron will sharpen iron, even if some sparks fly.

By your questions you show me that you don't feel capable to discern if what someone is telling you is right or wrong. Instead of prayerfully searching scripture for yourself, would you go to your church for an answer, accepting whatever they give as an answer? If this is your course of action, how do you know what the church tells you is right or not?

You are still confusing the words of Jesus to the apostles with more general teachings.

The promises made to the leaders of the Church are not meant for you and I.

You want to appoint yourself as leader, but that is not scriptural nor is it how the Church has operated for 2000 years.

Our task is to listen to the message of those sent by Jesus, not to try to create our own message.

I am not confusing anything, You are denying the fulness God offers. Your only defense is to accuse me of appointing myself as a leader when Christ is the only true leader there is. He gives us a gift, His Holy Spirit, and you fear to accept it because it may go against your church doctrine? What a loss for you and all those who your church has placed this burden upon. You talk about my appointing leadership on myself where I never once remotely inferred such a thing, while all along you have placed it on a denomination that has strangled Gods people by telling them they can't understand scripture and need to have someone tell them what God is saying. No wonder you live in such fear.

I do so pray that God removes this burden from around your neck so you can truly look up and realize that He is your Father and has offered you all He has. Do you not understand that we are sons of God?

You claim that the authority given to the apostles was also given to you.

I believe that you are mistaken.

You are incorrect. If God chooses to move through me, it is He who has the authority to do so. Nobody can command God to work for them, it is the other way around. Men are moved by His Spirit to do His work. If you choose to deny His works through you because the church tells you you can't, then that is something you have to take up with Christ when you answer for what you do in Him.