Denominations?

[nChrist]

ChestertonRules

Try again:

Acts 10

27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean.

Acts 15

6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Question for you:

Why did Paul travel to Jerusalem to consult with the Church leaders about the necessity of circumcision for gentile converts?

I don't need to try anything again - you dodged the issue of disagreement completely. Peter was most obviously an Apostle to the Jews (The Circumcision), and I have already provided proof of that. It's such a basic Bible fact that it shouldn't have been an issue. Whether you accept this fact or disregard it is not my problem. I won't be spending any more time trying to teach you basic Bible facts. You have a Catholic agenda, and that's more important to you than the truth, so you're on your own.

[nChrist]

Do you really believe that God would send the Holy Spirit to give gifts and set up offices while not allowing the Holy Spirit to guide them and teach them?

Of course the Holy Spirit guides us and teaches us. However, it does not contradict the Church.

The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. Protestantism is full of contradictory teachings. Those who teach these contradictory things claim to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Are they?

You have a one-track mind - the RCC and then the RCC. You call it the Church, and it ISN'T the CHURCH WHICH IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. The RCC is nothing more than a church made with human hands, and the Pope has zero authority. Some people are saved in the RCC, but it would be in spite of the RCC - not because of it. The RCC has many false teachings that are contrary to God's Word. Just for information, Jesus Christ is the head of the Church Which is the Body of Christ. God's Word is the authority to measure all truth, and by that measurement - the RCC is a man-made mess. The RCC needs to subject itself to God and God's Word - not the Pope.

If you're here for converts to the RCC, you're wasting your time. We don't want what you're selling. Those who have tasted of the REALITY of CHRIST AND GOD'S WORD will never go back to man-made doctrines. Read about the RCC and see how God's Word measures it:

http://carm.org/roman-catholicism

[nebula]

Ah, this is the part of the circle where I say "The point, which you keep ignoring, is that the church Jesus started was not the Roman Catholic Church, but His body of believers that had not real name. It was not until later that congregations started having names. You want to step back in time, but refuse to step all the way back. Jesus came to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. You seem to forget that. "

Did I get it right?

Why do you continue to dodge my questions?

He's good at not answering questions like this. This is why I quit communicating with him.

There comes a time when you need to shake off the dust.

[OneLight]

Ah, this is the part of the circle where I say "The point, which you keep ignoring, is that the church Jesus started was not the Roman Catholic Church, but His body of believers that had not real name. It was not until later that congregations started having names. You want to step back in time, but refuse to step all the way back. Jesus came to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. You seem to forget that. "

Did I get it right?

Why do you continue to dodge my questions?

He's good at not answering questions like this. This is why I quit communicating with him.

There comes a time when you need to shake off the dust.

I understand, but he is not an unbeliever who rejects the gospel of salvation, but one who comes in His name teaching falsely. If this were a church setting, then he would of already been removed, but as long as he remains and is allowed to continue, it is hard for me to allow him to teach falsely about those who are in the Lord. Basically, he is no different then any other church that teaches that they are the only ones who hold the truth, which automatically makes it a lie.

[enoob57]

Ah, this is the part of the circle where I say "The point, which you keep ignoring, is that the church Jesus started was not the Roman Catholic Church, but His body of believers that had not real name. It was not until later that congregations started having names. You want to step back in time, but refuse to step all the way back. Jesus came to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. You seem to forget that. "

Did I get it right?

Why do you continue to dodge my questions?

He's good at not answering questions like this. This is why I quit communicating with him.

There comes a time when you need to shake off the dust.

I guess that is why you are called Nebula... dust among other things in the heavens

[Dragoon]

Sorry to take so long to reply. I tend to lose track of some threads.

What you've given is the Catholic perspective... one that is not held by the Eastern Orthodox Church as far as I understand it.

"The Orthodox Church teaches that all bishops are equal."

"Orthodoxy teaches that every bishop, "the living icon of Christ," and his flock constitute the Church in a certain place; or, as St. Ignatius the God-bearer says, the Church of Christ is in the bishop, his priests and deacons, with the people, surrounding the Eucharist in the true faith. All bishops and their flocks so constituted, together composing the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church."

(http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html)

Might I suggest you read over what the Eastern Orthodox Church says upon the matter of Orthodox belief and Roman Catholic belief?

If you choose in good conscience and in your best understanding of Christ to follow the teachings and leadership of the Roman Catholic Church, then so be it.

Please do not propagate biased information in seeking to lead others down that path though.

I agree that I have given the Catholic perspective, but how did I illustrate this perspective?

I demonstrated that the early Eastern Fathers accepted the current Catholic view of the papacy.

This proves that there was a change in the Eastern Church at some point and that the Catholic Church has maintained the position of the early Church.

I suggest you take this up with Eastern Orthodox believers, as they would strongly disagree with you. One would think they know their beliefs and positions better than you would.

If you choose to follow church 'fathers', saints and popes, then you are entirely welcome to. When I read your posts though, it does not inspire love for the Roman Catholic church, but rather a deep sadness that men would love human traditions vs. our Father.

How could they disagree with the quotes I provided from Eastern Fathers?

Did you even read the quotes? Why bring up a point if you don't even care about the Truth of the matter?

How could they disagree? Perhaps you should follow the link to the Orthodox website I posted and read for yourself.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Truth? Yes, I care passionately about the Truth, and the Truth is Jesus Christ.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

The point, which you keep ignoring, is that Jesus started a single Church. There was no such thing as the Orthodox Church for several hundred years after Christ walked the earth.

Jesus is the way, and he started a Church to guide us.

Yes, Jesus Christ started a single church...

and as you know, the word church is a translation of the Greek ekklesia.

ekklesia means those who are 'called out'/'assembled'/'a congregation'. It is a false modern usage to use it for a building. Christ created a single church of those he called out, and these faithful believers who follow Him are the church; the body of Christ.

The church never meant a body of men under a human leader.

And please don't be silly, there wasn't even a Roman Catholic church until hundreds of years after Christ. There was only a Bishop of Rome who stood with other Bishops competing for primacy. Why do you think Paul goes to Jerusalem and not to Rome to speak to 'those who seemed to be leaders' (Gal 2:2)

You also are contradicting yourself.

Denominations came 1500 years later.

You now adjust that to say, "for several hundred years", which is very different.

Now that we've gone over ground that people have repeatedly gone over with you yet again, would you stop with the propaganda for the Roman Catholic church. If you desire to follow a Pope and claim he speaks for Christ, then so be it.

I'll stick with Christ Himself with no middle man.

The leaders of the Church Jesus built started in Jerusalem, but soon settled in Rome. Peter died in Rome and his successors remained in Rome. The location of the Church is irrelevant, what matters is following those sent by Jesus.

Also, the Orthodox Churches are not considered to be denominations.

Jesus told us to consult the Church when we have disputes.

How can we consult a body with no leader? Who speaks for the Church? How can we listen to a Church with no voice or a Church with a thousand voices?

The leader of the church is Christ.

And he (Jesus Christ) is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (Col 1:18)

If you follow another leader, then have you rejected Christ? Do you seek human 'kings' to replace the King?

Who speaks for the church? Not any man. The Holy Spirit speaks to us and guides us.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

If you do not hear the Spirit's voice, then what spirit is within you?

[nebula]

Which question didn't I answer?

OneLight:

"The point, which you keep ignoring, is that the church Jesus started was not the Roman Catholic Church, but His body of believers that had not real name. It was not until later that congregations started having names. You want to step back in time, but refuse to step all the way back. Jesus came to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. You seem to forget that. "

Did I get it right?

Why do you continue to dodge my questions?

~~~~~~

I'll be polite and answer. Although I believe it to be just as futile as the last time.

You have repeatedly stated that, in your opinion, the Catholic Church is not the Church Jesus built. However, you have yet to tell us which Church he did build.

I told you before -

He built an Assembly. It began as a Jewish sect. By the time the entity known as the RCC became established, all traces of Jewish heritage were rejected, replaced by elements of Gentile (pagan-based) traditions.

What Jesus founded had no name, it was just His body of believers. They called it "The Way" for the sake of identification. Individual Assemblies for each location existed within the greater Assembly. "Universal Church" is not in the Scriptures.

Which Church do you believe has authority to teach today? Which Church is being led in the fullness of Truth? Which Church has the authority to bind and loose and to forgive sins as the apostles did?

The Body of Believers has the authority to teach today.

The Body of Believers is being led in the fullness of Truth.

The Body of Believers are a Kingdom of Priests, with the authority of priesthood duties. (Rev. 5:9-10)

If two churches teach contradictory doctrines can both be led by the Holy Spirit?

God is so much bigger than our doctrinal hang-ups. I hope one day you can experience this.

[nebula]

I guess that is why you are called Nebula... dust among other things in the heavens

LOL!

[Dragoon]

Ah, this is the part of the circle where I say "The point, which you keep ignoring, is that the church Jesus started was not the Roman Catholic Church, but His body of believers that had not real name. It was not until later that congregations started having names. You want to step back in time, but refuse to step all the way back. Jesus came to the Jewish people, not the Gentiles. You seem to forget that. "

Did I get it right?

Why do you continue to dodge my questions?

He's good at not answering questions like this. This is why I quit communicating with him.

There comes a time when you need to shake off the dust.

I understand, but he is not an unbeliever who rejects the gospel of salvation, but one who comes in His name teaching falsely. If this were a church setting, then he would of already been removed, but as long as he remains and is allowed to continue, it is hard for me to allow him to teach falsely about those who are in the Lord. Basically, he is no different then any other church that teaches that they are the only ones who hold the truth, which automatically makes it a lie.

Did Jesus promise the apostles that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all Truth?

Did Jesus promise that he would be with them until the end of the world?

Did Jesus promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church?

What false information do you accuse me of teaching?

We could start with this:

"How can we consult a body with no leader? Who speaks for the Church? How can we listen to a Church with no voice or a Church with a thousand voices?"

Or this:

"The leaders of the Church Jesus built started in Jerusalem, but soon settled in Rome"

The leaders of the church in Jerusalem were James, Peter and John.

James the brother of Jesus continued at Jerusalem, and was the 1st Bishop there, suceeded by Simeon.

We do not know where the Apostle John went, though some suggest Asia. In any regard, there is no evidence of him going to Rome.

As to Peter, we know that there were Christians there well before he went to Rome (Priscilla and Aquila), and he is not mentioned in connection with any of the Biblical references to the Roman congregation up to rough 62 AD. While we believe he was martyred in Rome, there is little evidence that he 'settled' there or was even Bishop there.

Or this:

"Denominations came 1500 years later."

Which you then change by saying, "for several hundred years."

...and then adjust again by claiming, "Orthodox Churches are not considered to be denominations."

denomination- a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church (2011 Oxford University Press)

While the Roman Catholic church accepts the Eastern Orthodox church as a 'church', they are still autonomous and thus a denomination.

Are these 'falsehoods'? They certainly alter truth to suit your ends.

[Dragoon]

How could they disagree? Perhaps you should follow the link to the Orthodox website I posted and read for yourself.

http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/reading/ortho_cath.html

Truth? Yes, I care passionately about the Truth, and the Truth is Jesus Christ.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

The point, which you keep ignoring, is that Jesus started a single Church. There was no such thing as the Orthodox Church for several hundred years after Christ walked the earth.

Jesus is the way, and he started a Church to guide us.

Yes, Jesus Christ started a single church...

and as you know, the word church is a translation of the Greek ekklesia.

ekklesia means those who are 'called out'/'assembled'/'a congregation'. It is a false modern usage to use it for a building. Christ created a single church of those he called out, and these faithful believers who follow Him are the church; the body of Christ.

The church never meant a body of men under a human leader.

And please don't be silly, there wasn't even a Roman Catholic church until hundreds of years after Christ. There was only a Bishop of Rome who stood with other Bishops competing for primacy. Why do you think Paul goes to Jerusalem and not to Rome to speak to 'those who seemed to be leaders' (Gal 2:2)

You also are contradicting yourself.

Denominations came 1500 years later.

You now adjust that to say, "for several hundred years", which is very different.

Now that we've gone over ground that people have repeatedly gone over with you yet again, would you stop with the propaganda for the Roman Catholic church. If you desire to follow a Pope and claim he speaks for Christ, then so be it.

I'll stick with Christ Himself with no middle man.

The leaders of the Church Jesus built started in Jerusalem, but soon settled in Rome. Peter died in Rome and his successors remained in Rome. The location of the Church is irrelevant, what matters is following those sent by Jesus.

Also, the Orthodox Churches are not considered to be denominations.

Jesus told us to consult the Church when we have disputes.

How can we consult a body with no leader? Who speaks for the Church? How can we listen to a Church with no voice or a Church with a thousand voices?

The leader of the church is Christ.

And he (Jesus Christ) is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. (Col 1:18)

If you follow another leader, then have you rejected Christ? Do you seek human 'kings' to replace the King?

Who speaks for the church? Not any man. The Holy Spirit speaks to us and guides us.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16:13)

If you do not hear the Spirit's voice, then what spirit is within you?

In John 16 Jesus was speaking to the leaders of the Church, not to you and I.

John clarifies this point here:

1 John 4

6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

These are other commands that Jesus gives to his listeners in John:

Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. (John 13:14-15)

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father (John 14:12)

In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. (John 15:12)

Which of these will you also say that "Jesus was speaking to the leaders of the Church, not to you and I?"

Of this Holy Spirit, which you claim is only for the 'leaders' of the church, scripture tells us;

He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Cor 1:21-22)

This was not spoken to 'leaders', but;

To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia (2 Cor 1:1)

Which gospel are you seeking to proclaim CK? The gospel of the Roman Catholic church... or the Gospel of Jesus Christ?