Women Pastors

[Guest koppen]

What is God's greatest gift and are women excluded from receiving this gift? I Tim 2:3-5 Does "men" (anthropos) mean men and women or male humans? To whom did Paul write the book of Ephesians? Ephesians 1:1. Does this include women? Are the gifts in Ephesians 4:7-12 given to anthropos, men or men and women? Would women prophesy, Acts 2? What did Catherine Booth, co-founder of Salvation Army, teach about female ministry back in 1859? Do the spiritual gifts of I Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 have gender destinctives? What command do we have concerning spiritual gifts I Pet 4:10b? What is God's greatest gift and are women excluded from receiving this gift? 1 Timothy 2:3-5 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men (anthropos) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (anthropos), the man Christ Jesus; Well, women, can we receive the gift of salvation or can't we? It says that God would have all MEN to be saved. Let's check the NIV translation. Vs 4 ...who wants all men (anthropos) to be saved... NAS translation, Vs 4 ...who desires all men (anthropos) to be saved... Maybe it's like the little girl who said, "In regular school men means "men", but in Sunday School men means "men and women?" Does "men" (anthropos) mean men and women? NRSV translation Vs 4 "...who desires everyone (anthropos) to be saved... Vs 5 there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind (anthropos), Christ Jesus, HIMself human,.." New Living Translation Vs 4 "for he wants everyone (anthropos) to be saved ... Vs 5 only one God and one mediator who can reconcile God and people (anthropos). He is the man Christ Jesus. NIV Inclusive translation Vs 4 "who wants all people (anthropos) to be saved... Vs 5 one God and one mediator between God and human beings (anthropos), Christ Jesus, HIMself human, From John 3:16, Romans and Galatians and other places, we can conclude that (anthropos) does mean "men and women." Ephesians 2:8 NIVI For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-- and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God." To whom did Paul write the book of Ephesians? Can we conclude that Ephesians is also for women? Ephesians. 1:1 "...to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus." Can women be "saints" and "faithful in Christ Jesus?" Are women believers, children of God, Christians, and part of the Church? Are the the gifts in Ephesians 4:7-12 given to anthropos? Ephesians 4:7-12 KJV But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men (anthropos). (...) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ" A woman receives salvation through faith in Christ the same as a man. Women believers receive power to witness of Christ after the Holy Spirit comes upon them, the same as for men believers. Is the Holy Spirit's power to witness of Christ to be limited or silenced in women believers? Does the meaning of men (anthropos) change here in Ephesians 4:8 to mean only men, not women, and if so, why? Paul was speaking to the "saints and faithful in Christ Jesus", is he now just speaking to the men? The RSV, NIVI and New Living translations use the word "people", here in Vs 8. Can women really be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers? Consider this: Romans 16:7 Paul sends greetings to Andronicus and Junia, "my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was." It is impossible to tell from the Greek text whether Junia was a man or a woman. However, St. John Chrysostom, one of the early Church Fathers, wrote that Junia was a woman. In Acts 2 When the day of Pentecost came, they (men and women) were all together in one place. And Peter stood up and told the crowd, Vs 15 (NIVI), "These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 17 `In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams. 18 Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy...'" Sounds like men and women, old and young, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and would be prophesying? Acts 5:14 KJV "And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Both men and women were obeying Christ and witnessing by the power of the Holy Spirit. Under the great persecution, they were all scattered abroad Acts 8:1. Therefore they that were scattered abroad went everywhere preaching the word, Vs 4. No wonder Saul, the persecutor, committed both men AND women to prison , Vs 3. Acts 21:8-9 "And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and come unto Caesarea; and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven, and abode with him. And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy." Were Philip's daughters preaching? 1 Corinthians. 11:5 "...any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head..." Does this say women would be praying and prophesying in the church assembly? Romans 16:1 KJV "I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea:" Diakonos, used to describe Phoebe's ministry is also used by Paul to describe the ministries of Apollos, Timothy, Tychicus, Epaphras, and even Paul himself. Diakonos appears twenty times in Paul's writings and in the KJV is translated "minister" sixteen times and "deacon" three times. Only in the case of Phoebe is diakonos translated servant. Has Phoebe's work been obscured by bias and poor translation? We are instructed to be servant-leaders, therefore, servant would be a proper translation for diakonos, but only if both man and women diakonos' were translated "servant". Catherine Booth, co-founder of the Salvation Army, whom we have lauded as a great Christian woman, in her pamphlet (24 Pages) "Female Ministry: Woman's Right to Preach the Gospel", 1859, reprinted by The Salvation Army 1975, p 10 says, "I would draw attention to the fact that Phoebe, a Christian woman whom we find in our version of the Scripture (Romans xvi:1) spoken of only as any common servant attached to a congregation, was nothing less than one of those gifted by the Holy Spirit for publishing the glad tidings, or preaching the Gospel. The manner in which the Apostle (...) speaks of her, shows that she was what he in Greek styled her, a deacon or preacher of the Word." And again on page 15, Catherine Booth says, "'The lord gave the word, and great was the company of those that published it' (Psalm lxviii:11) In the original Hebrew it is, "Great was the company of women publishers, or women evangelists."... "How comes it that the feminine word is actually excluded in this text: That it is there as plainly as any other word no Hebrew scholar will deny. it is too much to assume that as our translators could not alter it, as they did "Deaconon" when applied to Phebe, they preferred to leave it out altogether rather than give a prophecy so unpalatable to their prejudice. But the Lord gives the word, and he will choose whom He pleases to publish it, notwithstanding the condemnation of translators and divines." However, the main thrust of Ephesians 4:7-12 is in Vs 12 "for the work of the ministry and the edifying of the saints." However, credentialing and ordination is not a requirement for ministry and serving; many churches do use it for organizational purposes. Dwight L Moody definitely was a person with a ministry and he was never ordained. When I attended Wheaton College, we would go into Chicago on weekends to programs and concerts at the Moody Bible Institute. Something to think about: The NIV Application Commentary: Ephesians, Copyright 1996, Zondervan pp 212-213 has this to say about Ephesians 4:7-12: "Gifts for ministry. The discussion of spiritual gifts is enriched by this passage. ...Spiritual gift inventories supposedly help people find their gift. But this approach is naive and does not do justice to the biblical accounts. In fact, it is a self-centered approach. The New Testament never asks us to identify our gifts. ...1 Corinthians 12:4-7 shows that a gift is the same thing as a working or a service; a gift is namely the way the Spirit works through a person for the good of the community. Consequently, no one should assume a gift is a lifelong possession." "In Ephesians 4:ll certain leaders are viewed as gifts to the church, but actually this is true of all Christians. All have received grace and have a responsibility to build up the church. As the Spirit works through each person for the good of the community, each person is a gift to the church. We would do well to have less concern about identifying gifts and more concern about being a gift, that is about how the Spirit functions through us to strengthen the body." My question is this: Should not women today emulate those early women believers who received the Holy Spirit and became public witnesses of Christ to the uttermost parts of the earth as Christ commissioned? Is Jesus, the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts limited in a woman because she is female? Do true spiritual gifts have sexist attributes? To whom is 1 Corinthians written? Chapter 1, Vs 2 KJV "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus," 1 Corinthians 12 considers gifts and their use? Is there any mention of sexual distinctions in the discussions? No. Vs 7 NRSV "To each is given...for the common good." Vs 11 "All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses." Is it the church's job to choose who has what gift, or does the Spirit choose? The third place gifts are listed is in Romans 12:4-8. Seven gifts are listed, and there is no mention of sexual distinctives. The command concerning gifts is: I Pet 4:10b "serve one another with whatever gift each of you has received." I hope these comments give all of us inspiration and a fresh outlook on how God works in his people

[Guest Gladiator4God]

lol.....ok

[Guest koppen]

there are many verses that encourage both men and women to preach the Gospel. The Bible teaches that God is not a respecter of persons, and He will use any and all who will yield to Him, regardless of race, age, or sex. Galatians 3:28 - "...neither male nor female...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Acts 10:34 - "...God is no respecter of persons...." Moses said in Numbers 11:29, "Would God that all the Lord's people were prophets, and that the Lord would put His spirit upon them!" The crying need of the hour is for more laborers. It is a trick of the enemy to try to down rate thousands of our faithful laborers just because they were born females. The Great Commission, Mark 16:15, "Preach the Gospel," is to ALL believers, and to all the church of Jesus Christ. The command to "preach the Gospel" is to both male and female. It is an undeniable fact that God has called and anointed thousands of women to preach the Gospel. The Full Gospel organizations have hundreds of licensed and ordained women who are preaching, teaching, evangelizing, pastoring, and doing mission work with the signs following their ministry. God is using them for the salvation of the lost, deliverance from sin, gifts of the Spirit, and infilling of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says, "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophets no harm." And may we be reminded of the Scripture in Acts 5:39, "If it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." When someone says, "God does not call women to preach," it is like saying that God does not baptize with the Holy Spirit today. We know better, because we have witnessed and experienced it with our own ears and eyes. I would be afraid to condemn women preachers, lest I would be found to be fighting against God, and to be committing the vile sin of attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil. Women preachers are a fulfillment of Bible Prophecy and another sign of Christ's soon return to earth (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17-18). The Bible declares that women will prophesy: 1 Cor. 11:5, "For every woman that prayeth or prophesieth...." Both the Hebrew (Nebrah), and Greek (Proph) used for prophetess means (female preacher). (See Young's Concordance, Pg. 780.) The word "Prophet" means a public expounder. The word "Prophesy" means to speak forth, or flow forth. The Bible says in 1 Cor. 14:3, "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto MEN to edification, and exhortation and comfort." The dictionary says, prophesy is "to speak under divine inspiration...to preach." Therefore we learn from the original translation, from the Bible interpretation, and from the dictionary, that to prophesy means more than to tell the future, but it is to speak publicly about the past, present, or future. It is to preach under the anointing of the Holy Spirit. The Old and New Testament prophets and prophetesses were preachers of God's Word. Even if the words prophet and preacher could be separated, how could anyone prophesy to bring exhortation, comfort and edification to the church, if she were forbidden to speak in church and was to keep silent? Would God inspire and anoint someone to do something that was wrong and sinful??? * (There is a difference between a prophet, and the gift of prophecy.) God called and used women preachers in the Old Testament. a. DEBORAH - Judges 4:4-5. Deborah was a Judge for both civil and criminal cases. The children of Israel came to her for judgment. She was the chief ruler of Israel for 40 years, giving orders to the Generals and all the army. She did the work of an evangelist, prophetess, Judge, and a preacher. God gave her authority over the mighty (Judges 5:13). b. MIRIAM - Exodus 15:20; Numbers 12:1; Micah 6:4. She was a Prophetess and a Song Leader in Israel. c. HULDAH - 2 Kings 22:14. Five men went to Sister Huldah and communed with her. She spoke to a congregation of men concerning the book of the Law. A female preached to a man's congregation, and her message was taken to the nation and produced a revival. d. MAHER-SHALAL-HASH-BAZ'S MOTHER - Isaiah 8:3. She was a prophetess. God called and used women preachers in the New Testament. a. The first message of the Resurrection of Christ was spoken by women to a group of men. b. Anna - Luke 2:36-38. She must have prophesied in church, because she did not depart from the temple. c. Phillip had 4 daughters who prophesied. Acts 21:9. d. Priscilla assisted Paul in his revival meeting and even taught Apollos in the way of the Lord more perfectly. e. Phebe - Romans 16:1-2. Paul commended Phebe to the Church at Rome and requested that they assist her in her business. She was one of Paul's assistants in the work of the Lord and delivered the Book of Romans to the people from the hand of Paul. There is no sound reason why a woman or man should not preach the Gospel. There is a desperate need in the church for more workers. Laborers are few, and God will use any and all who will go for Him. Some say God will not use a woman to preach, because "The woman was deceived," but remember Romans 5:12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." It seems to indicate that Adam was just as guilty as Eve in the fall of man. If anyone should be kept from preaching because of sin, it would be Adam. But God does not forbid anyone from preaching, because of Adam's or Eve's sin. 1 Cor. 14: 34-35 does not say anything about women preachers. If Paul intended this verse as a general rule to bar all women from speaking in church, then they cannot teach Sunday School, testify, pray, prophesy, sing, or even get saved, and this would contradict the rest of the Bible (Acts 2:4; Acts 2:16-18). Paul was rather dealing with a particular problem in the church. Women were not educated as were the men in that day; therefore the women would talk back and forth to their husbands in church and ask questions concerning the sermon. Paul said, "If they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." If they want to talk things over let them wait until they get home. This rule is still good for the church today, where people are talking and causing confusion in the church service. They should not speak in church. (Not in the back of the church either before or after services.) If a woman cannot speak in church, then she cannot speak in prayer meeting, young people's service, etc., for who can deny that Sunday School and Prayer meeting, and Youth work are parts of church? Christ's Church is not a building, but rather it is found where two or three are gathered together in His name, whether at a street meeting, in a tent, a home, church, classroom or anywhere else. 1 Timothy 2:12 is not a blanket rule for all women of all churches. If it were, then the women could not speak at all, for the same verse that tells them not to teach also tells them to be silent. If all women had to keep silent in church, then that would be promoting disobedience to God, for they could not prophesy, pray, testify, sing, exhort, do personal work, or even get saved. Whenever an interpretation to a verse contradicts the rest of the teaching of the Bible, we know this interpretation is incorrect, for the Holy Spirit will never contradict His own Word. This is the chief verse that is used to oppose women preaching and yet it says nothing about preaching, nor does it say anything about a public worship or church service. But, on the contrary, this verse is giving instructions to wives as to how they were to conduct themselves in regard to their husband. Paul says in 1 Cor. 14:35, "And if they will LEARN anything, let them ask their husbands at home." Now he states in 1 Tim. 2:12 that the woman should learn in silence, and should not usurp authority over the man. Paul is dealing with more of a home problem than a church problem. This verse still applies to us today. It is wrong for a woman to usurp authority over her husband (in church, home, or any place else) as was the case in Paul's day. She should not try to teach him or speak words that would cause discord and confusion, but should rather be silent and in subjection to her husband. It is also to be understood that if anyone, whether man or woman, is usurping authority over the God-given leadership of the church, she or he is to be silent, and not to teach, or act in such a way that would create discord in the assembly. Some have used Titus 1:6-7, "If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children...", but there is a difference between a preacher and a bishop. For I was an Evangelist and now am a Pastor, but I am not a Bishop (Overseer), and most Pastors are not. If God called a single man with no children to be a Bishop, as Paul was, surely this verse is not opposed to it, nor would this scripture oppose a woman Bishop if she was called of God for the work, as was Deborah. What this verse does teach is that a person who is to be a Bishop must not have two living companions, either husbands or wives. The Bible often speaks of "man" when it refers to both men and and women inclusively. The word "mankind" also includes both men and women. For an example of this word usage see 1 Cor. 13:1 - "Though I speak with the tongues of MEN and angels...." This word "MEN" includes women as well, for we do not have one language for men and another for women. To condemn women preachers and women church workers is a serious offense, because God has stamped His approval on them by His Spirit over and over again, and who is man to fight against the Spirit of God? To condemn women preachers and women church workers is in a sense to claim they are doing wrong and committing sin...and all those who support them and listen to them are having a part in that sin. For anyone to do this, he must condemn approximately 99% of all the Spirit-filled believers and the vast majority of all of Christianity. "Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons..." (Acts 10:34).

[Guest koppen]

If we encourage our women to keep silent while God is inspiring them to speak out in a teaching or a prophecy, it is sin because sin is turning away from God. While the husband is the head of his wife, he is not the head of everyone else's wife or woman for that matter. The husband is the head of the wife for organization of the family not because he is automatically the best or strongest spiritually or any other way. Men and women are exact equals before God, Who judges the heart since He can help anyone overcome all other obstacles that they might have to compete in. We want different things during courtship fases. If a husband is perfectly happy with his wife as Senior Pastor because he views his business with her at home differently then her job at church, then who ever makes it a problem is trouble making. We should be lovers of TRUTH and able to recognize the TRUTH even if it comes out of the mouth of a two year old.......which I have seen God use many times....You 'll miss an important message if your heart doesn't be still and listen with great purity and humbleness......those are the most important listening tools.........especially when receiving a personal message when WHOEVER is inspired to speak......God Bless the Bride......Men are a part of that body called the BRIDE OF CHRIST! Woman have a natural talent for being verbal and communicating. The women of Corinth were out of control is very distracting ways.....their dress, jewlry, interrupting etc. Paul had to help them remember how to organize and submit to get the exceedingly abundant blessing from God....the personal message for personal growth!! The scriptures not only say Wives submit unto your husbands, it says HUSBANDS.....SUBMIT UNTO YOUR WIVES......ONE TO ANOTHER...The only Boss is God who has used man as the head to serve the family as Christ served the church......willing to die for them.......May Jesus' God... The Almighty Father Give us revelations.

[Guest koppen]

LOL....I was inspired and led to to post....I am tired I will return later on..Good night and May God Bless you all..

[Guest kitkat]

If GOD calls a woman to preach, who are we here on earth to say, judge or condemn and say that they aren't called of God?

Kat

[apothanein kerdos]

Okay, I'm going to try and be as kind as possible here. If you don't know Greek then please do not act like you do. Of all the Greek you brought up, again you have the meanings or grammatical rules wrong on them. I'll get to them in a minute.

According to the Bible, it is "OK" to be different, and have different opinions on things.

We live for the Lord. We do the best we know how to please the Lord. It is up to us to conform our will, the best we understand, to what the Lord wants us to do.

If this is the case then I can become an alchoholic fornicator without any consequences as long as I'm witnessing to the people while I do it. When we remove Biblical restrictions from our life and say, "It's up to the LORD", we end up on dangerous ground. If you were asserting that Saturday was a better Sabbath than Sunday, you're right, we could disagree and there'd be no problem. However, you're asserting not only that a part of God''s word is no longer applicable, but that God Himself is telling you to contradict His Word. You say you aren't yet offer no counter-interpretation to 1 Timothy or 1 Corinthians that has held weight in this debate.

The word "church" comes from the Greek word "ecclesia" - which means "the called out". Jesus has called his church "out" of the world to be a people special to Him for his purpose.

Grrr, no, ekklesia does not mean "called out ones". It means "assymbly" or "gathering", not "called out ones". This has absolutely no point in the debate, just a pet peeve of mine I guess.

Now..I TRUELY believe in my heart and what the Lord has laid upon my heart concerning Women Ministers is PERFECTLY inline with the Lord...Now if it is not then that is between me and the Lord however, if you are wrong it is between you and the Lord on the day you meet the mkaer...I think I have made myself perfectly clear on whom I answer to. Thank you and God Bless!

Then what is your counter interpretation for 1 Timothy?

I can show you passages refering to how God has used women in the Bible. : 1. Judges 4:4 -- Deborah, a prophetess : 2. Who was the first evangelist? Read Matthew 28:1-8; Mark 16: 1- 13; Luke 24:10-12; John 20:18. : Other scriptures teaching about women in ministry (of some type): : Romans 16:3,6,12

I have responded to every single one of these in a previous post. You, however, have chosen to ignore them and instead continued to use it as evidence. This proves one of many things to me. You could realize you have met a challenge you cannot overcome and instead of seeing if what you believe is actually false, you instead choose to continue in "ignorance" hoping no one else will ever challenge you on what you say again. The other option is that you have absolute knowledge on this issue and feel it is below you to debate on this. You believe that you hold the truth on it and thus have no need to debate. If this is the case you do us a great disservice to not show us our faults in our theology.

What I'm getting at is, either respond to what I have posted about these women or drop them as evidence.

Miriam -- Exodus 15:20 : Huldah -- 2 Kings 22:14 : Noadiah -- Nehemiah 6:14 : Anna -- Luke 2:36 : Daughters of Philip -- Acts 21:9 :

Please refer to previous posts' analysis about female prophets and deacons.

Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 talks of women keeping silent in the church, and studies behind the background of Corinth shows that in that day many unlearned and ignorant women were proclaiming a truth that was not fully what the Bible states, and Paul was trying to rectify this problem. NOTE in verse 34 that he says "Let YOUR women..."

Please refer to previous posts' analysis on the arguement you've brought forth.

I know women preachers and pastors, and they are as spirit-filled as any other pastor. People take one little passage like 1 Corintians 14:34,35 and they make it something out of proportion. : Remember, people also think that the saying "God helps those who help themselves" is in the Bible...

Yet you fail to give proper analysis as to why it's blown out of proportion. You simply say it is out of proportion. Why? Is it because you say it is or is there actually evidence that says it's out of proportion?

Women ministered to Jesus: "Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Matt 27:54-55 (KJV)

This does not place them in authority though. You've yet to establish a Biblical precidence for authority.

2) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. GAL 3:28

Refer to previous posts' analysis concerning this scripture.

3) In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created." Gen. 5:1 - 2 KJV 4)

This only seeks to prove that both men and women are created by God but fails to prove that they have the same exact roles in life.

In the gospels we read of several women messengers who proclaimed "GOOD NEWS" Check out (Matthew. 28:1-10; Luke. 24:9-11; John 4:28-30; 20:16-18)2) 5) In Acts 14-21 and Joel 2:28-31 God predicted and promised that He Himself WOULD POUR OUT HIS SPIRIT UPON all flesh (men @ woman) AND THEY WOULD PROPHESY. "He that prophesieth edifieth the church" (1st Corinthians 14:4). Prophesying is for the church and general public. (1st Corinthians. 12:1-31; 14:1-6; 12:24-26, 29-33) 6) In Acts 21:8-9 it is clear that PHILLIP'S FOUR DAUGHTERS WERE PROPHETESSES, THAT IS, THEY WERE EVANGELISTS LIKE THEIR FATHER. This is in perfect accord with Joel 2:28-29 which was fulfilled in the early church (Acts 2:16), and with Acts 2:17-18 which will be fulfilled in the last days 7) In Romans 16 we have record of a number of women servants of the Lord in various churches.

Again, this fails to set a Biblical precidence for female leadership.

CORINTHIAN WOMEN PROPHESIED AND PRAYED IN CHURCH (1st Cor. 11:4-5) so the scripture in 1st Cor. 14:34-35 that is used to condemn women ministers does not refer to preaching, but to disturbance in church services, asking or talking out to their husbands, as stated in 1st Cor. 14:35.

Again, this does not prove female authority. What it does prove is that women must have been saying something that was wrong or false or taking on some form of authority, thus Paul issued his edict.

You go on to repeat your point about prophets and then make a new point on sacrifices. I again ask you, what does this have to do with leadership? Thus far, everything has been quite irrelevant.

What is God's greatest gift and are women excluded from receiving this gift? I Tim 2:3-5 Does "men" (anthropos) mean men and women or male humans?

Let's dive into Greek, shall we?

The reason this is translated "men" is that the 2nd declinsion, nominitive, masculine ending is used. The only exception in this is that omicron sigma is generally suppose to be singular, however due to the verb endings and context we must translated it as plural. Thus, because of the noun ending, we translate it into "men", however for a person reading Greek, we easily pick up on that it can mean "human beings" as well as "the men". Again, the lexical form of anthropos is an omicron with a rough breathing mark, thus making it naturally a masculine word.

To whom did Paul write the book of Ephesians? Ephesians 1:1. Does this include women? Are the gifts in Ephesians 4:7-12 given to anthropos, men or men and women? Would women prophesy, Acts 2? What did Catherine Booth, co-founder of Salvation Army, teach about female ministry back in 1859? Do the spiritual gifts of I Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 have gender destinctives? What command do we have concerning spiritual gifts I Pet 4:10b? What is God's greatest gift and are women excluded from receiving this gift? 1 Timothy 2:3-5 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; Who will have all men (anthropos) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men (anthropos), the man Christ Jesus; Well, women, can we receive the gift of salvation or can't we? It says that God would have all MEN to be saved. Let's check the NIV translation. Vs 4 ...who wants all men (anthropos) to be saved... NAS translation, Vs 4 ...who desires all men (anthropos) to be saved... Maybe it's like the little girl who said, "In regular school men means "men", but in Sunday School men means "men and women?" Does "men" (anthropos) mean men and women? NRSV translation Vs 4 "...who desires everyone (anthropos) to be saved... Vs 5 there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind (anthropos), Christ Jesus, HIMself human,.." New Living Translation Vs 4 "for he wants everyone (anthropos) to be saved ... Vs 5 only one God and one mediator who can reconcile God and people (anthropos). He is the man Christ Jesus. NIV Inclusive translation Vs 4 "who wants all people (anthropos) to be saved... Vs 5 one God and one mediator between God and human beings (anthropos), Christ Jesus, HIMself human, From John 3:16, Romans and Galatians and other places, we can conclude that (anthropos) does mean "men and women."

I'm still waiting to see what your point is. You took that long to sum up what pretty much every Greek student already knows. anthropos[/] can be translated into "human being" or "man" and still maintain the same meaning.

A woman receives salvation through faith in Christ the same as a man. Women believers receive power to witness of Christ after the Holy Spirit comes upon them, the same as for men believers. Is the Holy Spirit's power to witness of Christ to be limited or silenced in women believers? Does the meaning of men (anthropos) change here in Ephesians 4:8 to mean only men, not women, and if so, why?

You finally begin to form a point (although a weak one) that states that women are capable of witnessing.

.........

Now that you've caught up and we can see that we agree on this, let us now try and prove that women are biblically allowed to hold authoritative positions within the church.

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists, and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of Christ" A woman receives salvation through faith in Christ the same as a man. Women believers receive power to witness of Christ after the Holy Spirit comes upon them, the same as for men believers. Is the Holy Spirit's power to witness of Christ to be limited or silenced in women believers? Does the meaning of men (anthropos) change here in Ephesians 4:8 to mean only men, not women, and if so, why? Paul was speaking to the "saints and faithful in Christ Jesus", is he now just speaking to the men?

The only point in here that substantiates your claim that women can be in authority within a church setting is that Paul says "...to some pastors...". However, because you have not refuted 1 Timothy or 1 Corinthians and have instead danced around it, we can safely assume that this "some" is an elect group of men, not women.

Romans 16:1 KJV "I commend unto you Phoebe our sister, which is a servant (diakonos) of the church which is at Cenchrea:" Diakonos, used to describe Phoebe's ministry is also used by Paul to describe the ministries of Apollos, Timothy, Tychicus, Epaphras, and even Paul himself. Diakonos appears twenty times in Paul's writings and in the KJV is translated "minister" sixteen times and "deacon" three times. Only in the case of Phoebe is diakonos translated servant.

Oh wow, multiple problems in this arguement.

First off, this is to assert that the translators had a bias in translating into English which nullifies all English translations of the bible.

Secondly, the proper word for servant is doulos, however this is more of a servant/slave relatinoship. The word used here, diakonos, derives from diako, which is an errand carrier. Whereas doulos is almost a forced servant or a servant under great restriction, diakonos is a voluntary servant. Thus if the word is interpreted minister (30 times in the NT), deacon (3 times in the NT) or servant (8 times in the NT), all three will have the same meaning. When translated minister, however, it does not mean it's the same as pastor. The Greek word for pastor is quite different and is the same word used for shepherd. Thus, the arguement that Phoebe held authority has fallen upon closer inspection.

Has Phoebe's work been obscured by bias and poor translation? We are instructed to be servant-leaders, therefore, servant would be a proper translation for diakonos, but only if both man and women diakonos' were translated "servant".

You can refer to my above analysis for a deeper understanding on the issue, but the word can be interpreted anyway and the meaning will stay the same.

You go on to post more articles (not written by your own hand I'm assuming) that talk about how women have the right to declare the Gospel. No one has denied them this right. No one has said it is wrong for women to declare the Gospel. The two things that scripture prohibits is (1) Women holding authority over men in a church setting and (2) Teaching (mentoring) a man.

I leave you with this article:

In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical?

    My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper.

   

    First of all, women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Instead, we must change and adapt to what it says.

    In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.(1) This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context. Let's take a look.

    "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.

    When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity"(1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.

    In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.

    Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.

    Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

What About Galatians 3:28?

    "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).

    This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.

    Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.

    This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority

    God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.

    In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14.

But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women?

    No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.

    Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family.  The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.

What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?

    There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation.  Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture.

    The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires?

What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?

    Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church?  In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?

    First of all, she should not be out there alone.  She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men.  Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.

    Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

Does this also mean that women shouldn't wear jewelry?

"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; 10 but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. 11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve," (1 Tim. 2:9-13).

    Some argue that if we are to forbid women to be elders then the context of 1 Tim. 2:9-13 demands that we require women to no have braided hair, wear gold, or have costly garments.  Since no one wants to put that sort of a demand on a woman (since it is cultural), then why should we also demand that they not be elders since it would logically follow that it was also a culturally based admonition?

    The problem here is that multifaceted.  First, the objection ignore what the scriptures plainly teach about the elder being the husband of one wife.  Second, it fails to address the real issue of biblical headship residing in the male.  Third, it fails to properly exegete the scripture in question.

    In 1 Tim. 2:9-13  Paul tells us that women should be modestly dressed.  He uses the example of then present day adornment as an example of what not to do, definitely culturally based assessment by Paul.  Notice that Paul emphasizes good works and godliness as a qualifier (as does Peter, see 1 Pet. 3:2).  This is not a doctrinal statement tied to anything other than being a godly woman in appearance as well as attitude.

    In verse 11, Paul says that a woman should quietly receive instruction.  Please note that "The word, he

[apothanein kerdos]

If GOD calls a woman to preach, who are we here on earth to say, judge or condemn and say that they aren't called of God?

Kat

David Koresh was "called by God"

Many pastors who were later kicked out of church or left churches in anger and bitterness were "called by God".

Just because someone claims to be called by God doesn't mean they are inherently called by God. We cannot fiat a calling by God. It must be brought into realization and held up to the word. If it doesn't match up to the Word, then we are not recognizing His proper calling in our lives.

[Guest kitkat]

If GOD calls a woman to preach, who are we here on earth to say, judge or condemn and say that they aren't called of God?

Kat

David Koresh was "called by God"

Many pastors who were later kicked out of church or left churches in anger and bitterness were "called by God".

Just because someone claims to be called by God doesn't mean they are inherently called by God. We cannot fiat a calling by God. It must be brought into realization and held up to the word. If it doesn't match up to the Word, then we are not recognizing His proper calling in our lives.

David Koresh wasn't a bit more called by God than the man in the moon Super Jew.

I can't believe you pulled David Koresh out of your hat in regards to this. LOL

Here's a reminder of what David Koresh was all about:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/wa...avidkoresh.html

You haven't a clue as to whom God has called and who He hasn't. God is the only one who knows who He has called. The determination of whether it matches up with the Word of God or not, is up to each individual to whom God has called, not to any outsiders. Not to you and not to me.

There is NO WAY you can say that anyone that IS called of God, is NOT called of God and MAKE IT SO, if indeed God has called him/her. Or do you think you know more than God does?

Kat

[apothanein kerdos]

If GOD calls a woman to preach, who are we here on earth to say, judge or condemn and say that they aren't called of God?

Kat

David Koresh was "called by God"

Many pastors who were later kicked out of church or left churches in anger and bitterness were "called by God".

Just because someone claims to be called by God doesn't mean they are inherently called by God. We cannot fiat a calling by God. It must be brought into realization and held up to the word. If it doesn't match up to the Word, then we are not recognizing His proper calling in our lives.

David Koresh wasn't a bit more called by God than the man in the moon Super Jew.

I can't believe you pulled David Koresh out of your hat in regards to this. LOL

You haven't a clue as to whom God has called and who He hasn't. God is the only one who knows who He has called. The determination of whether it matches up with the Word of God or not is up to each individual to whom God has called, not to any outsiders. Not to you and not to me.

There is NO WAY you can say that anyone that IS called of God, is NOT called of God and MAKE IT SO, if indeed God has called him/her. Or do you think you know more than God does?

Kat

Wow, you completely ignored the analysis given. I said that just because someone says they are called by God doesn't mean they are called by God. I "knew" I was called by God to be a youth pastor at a certain church, however after just being there a month, I realized it was not God's calling but my own ambition.

I will say with authority that a woman is NEVER called by God to be in a position of authority over a man in a church. I say this because the Bible backs it up. This is not my own saying, belief, or opinion. It is straight from the Bible. Do you think you know more than the Bible (which to assert that you do is inevitably to assert that you know more than God)?