Who is the man in Dan 10:5

[Dutch42]

Hello... all,

Maybe this is not the right place for this question.. So the mod. got of course permission to put it in the right forum.. if it doesn't fit here. (But I didn't know where I have to put this question)

I was studying Dan 10

And this is the Bible Scripture:

4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel,

5 I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, a man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with pure gold of Uphaz:

6 his body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as flaming torches, and his arms and his feet like unto burnished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

When we read Rev 1:13-15 we can read this:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle.

14 And his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 and his feet like unto burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters.

So we could think this is the same person:

But now we have to think about Dan 10:13,21 and 11:1

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia

21 But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

1 And as for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to confirm and strengthen him.

What we know is:

* This person isn't Michael.

* This person is a kind of warrior.. (with respect) And fight against the prince of Greece and Persian..

* He doesn't like at Gabriel -> because in Dan 8 we can see that Gabriel met Daniel.

* Michael was helping this person in his fight against the prince of Persia.

* This person was helping Michael in his battle too..

The strange part is.. the prince of Persia withstood him for 21 days. So,.. can it be Christ? Or is this a non-(biblical) named heavenly person...

My question: Who do you think that this person is. And why do you think that.

Edited September 18, 2011 by Dutch42

[Dutch42]

Hello... all,

Maybe this is not the right place for this question.. So the mod. got of course permission to put it in the right forum.. if it doesn't fit here. (But I didn't know where I have to put this question)

I was studying Dan 10

And this is the Bible Scripture:

4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel,

5 I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, a man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with pure gold of Uphaz:

6 his body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as flaming torches, and his arms and his feet like unto burnished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.

When we read Rev 1:13-15 we can read this:

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And having turned I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 and in the midst of the candlesticks one like unto a son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle.

14 And his head and his hair were white as white wool, white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 and his feet like unto burnished brass, as if it had been refined in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters.

So we could think this is the same person:

But now we have to think about Dan 10:13,21 and 11:1

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia

21 But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

1 And as for me, in the first year of Darius the Mede, I stood up to confirm and strengthen him.

What we know is:

* This person isn't Michael.

* This person is a kind of warrior.. (with respect) And fight against the prince of Greece and Persian..

* He doesn't like at Gabriel -> because in Dan 8 we can see that Gabriel met Daniel.

* Michael was helping this person in his fight against the prince of Persia.

* This person was helping Michael in his battle too..

The strange part is.. the prince of Persia withstood him for 21 days. So,.. can it be Christ? Or is this a non-(biblical) named heavenly person...

My question: Who do you think that this person is. And why do you think that.

anybody?

[joi]

Hi Dutch! Looks like you got left standing alone on your question. I am sorry about that.

We know about Michael and Gabriel, but undoubtedly God has many princes whom He uses to do His bidding. I can not think that we know them all.

Since He uses the number 12 often, perhaps there are twelve of these princes who do battle on our behalf, until the return of Christ.

I had read your title yesterday so when I went to bed last night I read that chapter in Daniel to refresh my mind.

[mizzdy]

Most think this is the Messiah. The Angel of the Lord, if that is also the Messiah, some say it is some no, but we see Him wrestling with Jacob and persevering till the end. We will never understand the ways of God, many question why Yeshua needed to wrestle or fight with anyone, after all He is God. But we see Him also as dying on the cross, as being tempted by the advesary and still being God, all for our benefit to show how we also can overcome. Not sure if that answered anything for you.

[Dutch42]

Hi Dutch! Looks like you got left standing alone on your question. I am sorry about that.

We know about Michael and Gabriel, but undoubtedly God has many princes whom He uses to do His bidding. I can not think that we know them all.

Since He uses the number 12 often, perhaps there are twelve of these princes who do battle on our behalf, until the return of Christ.

I had read your title yesterday so when I went to bed last night I read that chapter in Daniel to refresh my mind.

Hello Joi

Well it is an interesting question because a lot of commentary point Dan 10 at Jesus. The ESV-Studybible don't... because vs 13,14.

So you think it is one of the other 'princes'.. Do I understand you correct? Why do you think that?

Thank you for your imput!

[Dutch42]

Most think this is the Messiah. The Angel of the Lord, if that is also the Messiah, some say it is some no, but we see Him wrestling with Jacob and persevering till the end. We will never understand the ways of God, many question why Yeshua needed to wrestle or fight with anyone, after all He is God. But we see Him also as dying on the cross, as being tempted by the advesary and still being God, all for our benefit to show how we also can overcome. Not sure if that answered anything for you.

Thank you for your reaction Mizzdy. Do I understand you correct that you think it is the Messiah? And how do you think that it fit with 10:13

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Do you think that God needs help? That it is possible that the prince of Persian could withstood God?

[mizzdy]

Most think this is the Messiah. The Angel of the Lord, if that is also the Messiah, some say it is some no, but we see Him wrestling with Jacob and persevering till the end. We will never understand the ways of God, many question why Yeshua needed to wrestle or fight with anyone, after all He is God. But we see Him also as dying on the cross, as being tempted by the advesary and still being God, all for our benefit to show how we also can overcome. Not sure if that answered anything for you.

Thank you for your reaction Mizzdy. Do I understand you correct that you think it is the Messiah? And how do you think that it fit with 10:13

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Do you think that God needs help? That it is possible that the prince of Persian could withstood God?

No God doesn't need help. If this is Gabriel would it make more sense in our minds? perhaps so lets look to see if there might be any clues to see if this might be Gabriel. Aside from the idea that the description given in Rev. and this looking so much like the Messiah we read this in verse 12 , Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that you did set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before your God, your words were heard, and I am come for your words. It does seem to read that an angel was sent out to give meaning to Daniels vision but that the person was delayed by the prince of persia. Daniel was told to stand up, something we read also told to others who have had angels sent to them. Gabriel is the one whom Gods sends out to give message and give the meanings of visions. Theres debate on both sides, personally I have always thought this was Gabriel, the description of the man correlates in many ways with the vision of Rev. but unless someone can show something else I haven't heard or read I still think it is Gabriel being spoken of here.

[Dutch42]

Most think this is the Messiah. The Angel of the Lord, if that is also the Messiah, some say it is some no, but we see Him wrestling with Jacob and persevering till the end. We will never understand the ways of God, many question why Yeshua needed to wrestle or fight with anyone, after all He is God. But we see Him also as dying on the cross, as being tempted by the advesary and still being God, all for our benefit to show how we also can overcome. Not sure if that answered anything for you.

Thank you for your reaction Mizzdy. Do I understand you correct that you think it is the Messiah? And how do you think that it fit with 10:13

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Do you think that God needs help? That it is possible that the prince of Persian could withstood God?

No God doesn't need help. If this is Gabriel would it make more sense in our minds? perhaps so lets look to see if there might be any clues to see if this might be Gabriel. Aside from the idea that the description given in Rev. and this looking so much like the Messiah we read this in verse 12 , Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that you did set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before your God, your words were heard, and I am come for your words. It does seem to read that an angel was sent out to give meaning to Daniels vision but that the person was delayed by the prince of persia. Daniel was told to stand up, something we read also told to others who have had angels sent to them. Gabriel is the one whom Gods sends out to give message and give the meanings of visions. Theres debate on both sides, personally I have always thought this was Gabriel, the description of the man correlates in many ways with the vision of Rev. but unless someone can show something else I haven't heard or read I still think it is Gabriel being spoken of here.

Well Mizzdy this posting is not mentioned to discus if I think what is right or wrong.. So I it is good that you gave your point of view. Like I wrote in the OP, there are several opinions.. And yes, Gabriel is one of them too.

But interesting is that Daniel met Gabriel in Dan 8:16-9:21.

Daniel recognize Gabriel.. and he doesn't look at the description in Dan 10.. It seems when Gabriel appear, he appear only in a earthly (human 'body') But I have to say... when I look at lc 1:11 it is possible.

So Mizzdy thank you for your input again...

[coelacanth]

I re-read that part of Daniel as well to refresh my memory. Who ever this is it sounds a bit like it could be Christ but if it is He is in a different capacity than the one that we are familiar with. I submit to you that this could be Christ because if you will read all of the old testament you will find that Christ was revealed to many different generations in a different form than what we are familiar with. In fact if you don't really diligently study with the guidance of the holy spirit it is hard to see Christ in some of the situations that He clearly is in. Now how can we begin to know this? Christ Himself showed His followers where He was in the midst of the old testament.

Then he said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,[f] beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ You are witnesses of all these things.

So we know that Christ can take any form that is required at any given time. That being the case I would submit to you that this man was/is Christ Jesus the one we know as our savior.

[Dutch42]

I re-read that part of Daniel as well to refresh my memory. Who ever this is it sounds a bit like it could be Christ but if it is He is in a different capacity than the one that we are familiar with. I submit to you that this could be Christ because if you will read all of the old testament you will find that Christ was revealed to many different generations in a different form than what we are familiar with. In fact if you don't really diligently study with the guidance of the holy spirit it is hard to see Christ in some of the situations that He clearly is in. Now how can we begin to know this? Christ Himself showed His followers where He was in the midst of the old testament.

Then he said, “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures. And he said, “Yes, it was written long ago that the Messiah would suffer and die and rise from the dead on the third day. It was also written that this message would be proclaimed in the authority of his name to all the nations,[f] beginning in Jerusalem: ‘There is forgiveness of sins for all who repent.’ You are witnesses of all these things.

So we know that Christ can take any form that is required at any given time. That being the case I would submit to you that this man was/is Christ Jesus the one we know as our savior.

Yes I agree all what you said.. it could be Christ. That is true..

How do you see Dan 10;13 that is actually a strange verse if it is Christ.. because.. is it possible that the Persian prince can stop Christ to come?

Thank for your point of view