Woman Who Killed Infant Freed by Canada’s Pro-Abortion Law

[UndecidedFrog]

We cannot undo the past, but we can do our best to determine the most appropriate course of action. What do you think is an appropriate sentence, and what would you do to ensure that these things are less likely to occur?

D-9,

You are right. If you read the article I cited, it showed the precedent sentences for infanticide in Canada. IMO, what Effert received as her sentence was in line with what the other women received for the same crime.

Regards,

UF

[Shiloh62]

But this was not an abortion, the baby was already born. In either case, its still murder.

[UndecidedFrog]

But this was not an abortion, the baby was already born. In either case, its still murder.

Yes indeed Shiloh62, it is not abortion, and this has nothing to do with abortion as the article that nebula cited would have you think. If you read the other article on the same subject I cited, you will note no mention of abortion. This is infanticide.

The article that nebula cited was published by Lifenews.com, a website that is unabashedly anti-abortion. It is not surprising that it would interpret every event through this perspective. It is often useful to read and understand different viewpoints to determine the truth.

Regards,

UF

[ColeTurner]

How could someone let someone like her go?

[UndecidedFrog]

How could someone let someone like her go?

From my reading of like cases in Canada, the judge applied a sentence that aligned with precedent. If Canadians dislike the result, they are free to speak to their legislative representatives to change the law.

Regards,

UF

[Nakosis]

Abortion is murder.

Secular leftism is just another guise for Nazi style eugenics.

This is the logical end of the culture of death.

I kind of doubt her intent was a political stance on abortion.

It's sad, really, really sad and hard to deal with emotionally but what about forgiveness? People make really, really bad mistakes. Punishment does not fix anything. She needs help and counseling. She will have to live with her actions for the rest of her life. That's pretty punishing.

According to some if she is or becomes Christians her sin will be forgiven. However many want her punished out of a sense of personal justice?

Worse for her she is to be used as a political pawn to forward an anti-abortion agenda. While I'm personally against abortion, it's also sad to see people using each other like this.

Who's willing to be forgiving...

[MorningGlory]

Abortion is murder.

Secular leftism is just another guise for Nazi style eugenics.

This is the logical end of the culture of death.

I kind of doubt her intent was a political stance on abortion.

It's sad, really, really sad and hard to deal with emotionally but what about forgiveness? People make really, really bad mistakes. Punishment does not fix anything. She needs help and counseling. She will have to live with her actions for the rest of her life. That's pretty punishing.

According to some if she is or becomes Christians her sin will be forgiven. However many want her punished out of a sense of personal justice?

Worse for her she is to be used as a political pawn to forward an anti-abortion agenda. While I'm personally against abortion, it's also sad to see people using each other like this.

Who's willing to be forgiving...

I'm going to agree with you here, Nakosis. This case really has nothing to do with abortion and I'm not sure how anyone could connect it with that issue. The woman does need the Lord and she will be forgiven if she comes to Him......only He has the power to do that. And, if she repented, Christians could not hold her deed against her. This is an emotionally charged story and there is much we don't know.

[winsomebulldog]

I'm not sure if there is or is not any real connection - however small - to Canadian abortion laws in this case. It seems the Judge did make some small comparison to the struggles of women who are pregnant and unsupported, thus seeking abortions. However, the real point to me is less about whether abortion law played any role in the sentence and more about the trend developing to excuse crimes committed by teens because they're, well, teens. On the one hand, I realize that it is well established that teen (and even into the early 20's) minds are not fully developed and are thus not necessarily capable of making fully rational decisions. Surely, it's obvious that teens often make poor choices based significantly in part on their inability to fully comprehend the potential consequences of those choices. Looking back at my teen years, I can remember a few things I did that held the potential to go horribly wrong, and I was what most would consider a "good" kid. Meaning I never got drunk, did drugs, or went through a rebellious "phase" where I hated my parents. Still, I can think of a few choices I made that now make me cringe.

Having said all this, though, I still find myself routinely put off by how popular the "they're just a kid" argument has become. We recently had an incident in our area where a group of kids found it amusing to toss chunks of cement off bridges at cars passing on the interstate below. Needless to say, MANY accidents resulted and one woman was almost killed when one of the chunks hit her in the head. When they were caught, it was revealed that they came from an impoverished, inner-city background. And so began all the arguments about how their background was some kind of excuse. They were poor. They were stressed. They had poor role models. They had absentee parents. The list goes on and on. And then there were the ones who pulled out the, "they're just kids, they don't know what they're doing" line.

Postpartum depression is no joke. Depression of any sort is no joke. I should know, since I've lived with it my entire adult life. And one of my favorite quotes I've ever seen about depression is "depression lies." Simple, but profoundly true. Depression skews every thought that comes through your head. It can make you believe all kinds of crazy things.

Still, in spite of my understanding of depression and my clear memories of how easily a teen can do something utterly stupid, even when they're a "good" kid, I do not think this young woman received an appropriate sentence. The fact that her sentence is in line with others that have been handed down for similar crimes only makes it worse, to me. Because the fact remains that this young woman out and out murdered her child. A child that she could, presumably, have taken to numerous "safe haven" drop off sites. (Assuming that Canada has similar laws about this that the US does.) The fact is that she did not do this because she was 1) afraid of making her parents mad and 2) wholly unconcerned that she was literally choking the life out of her own child. Could she have been suffering from postpartum depression? Certainly. Could she have felt overwhelmed by the unwanted pregnancy and the fear of being found out? Obviously. But does any of this excuse the fact that she murdered her child? Absolutely not.

She may have been depressed, stressed to the point of breaking, and under the belief that she had no help and no way out. I've been there myself and know how overwhelming it can be. But the reality is that there are and should be consequences for everything we do. I never murdered anyone while caught in the depths of my depression. (Even when I was in my teens, which is when it first manifested in my life.) If I had, I would fully expect to pay the consequences for that crime, however.

As to this specific case, I agree with some that a life sentence is probably too severe. There were mitigating factors and those should be taken into account. that does not mean that she should have been let off with what amounts to a slap on the wrist. Which is exactly what has happened. "Time served" because the other inmates were "mean" to her in jail and because she felt overwhelmed by her situation are pitiful excuses to allow someone who murdered her child to walk free. If, as someone else suggested, it was determined that she had some kind of massive brain tumor that physically prevented her from distinguishing right from wrong, that would be an entirely different situation. It's obvious, though, that she knew very well that what she was doing was wrong, regardless of how "stressed" she was. She hid not only the pregnancy, but the birth and then the body. This demonstrates a conscious knowledge that she was committing a crime and a desire to not get caught.

I believe that "mitigating factors" should be considered in any legal case. I do not think those factors should be used to excuse the crime committed. And that is becoming a more and more popular trend. Shame on the court system for buying into the "Twinkie" defense.

[nebula]

Well, answered, winsomebulldog!

[winsomebulldog]

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about how the sentence is not appropriate, and how it doesn't show the value of human life. However, I haven't seen anyone talk about how they would have shown more value in the life taken or what sentence would have been more appropriate, or even what steps should be taken to ensure that stuff like this happens less often (ideally never again) by anyone who feels that the case was handled wrongly.

I know this is an old thread, but I recall that this point was essentially ignored while the thread was active, and I'd still like to see how you think it should have been done by those of you who believe it should have been handled differently. Us pro-choice people got bashed for not demonstrating the value of human life by saying that the sentence was basically appropriate, but what specifically should have been different to better show the sanctity of life, a more appropriate sentence, and what measures taken to ensure this doesn't happen again, and of course why?

"I'd still like to see how you think it should have been done by those of you who believe it should have been handled differently...what specifically should have been different to better show the sanctity of life?"

As many others have said, none of use knows all the specifics of the case. Generally, I make the assumption (believe me, I know how foolish that can be!) that the girl hid the pregnancy from her parents because she knew they would be angry and/or disappointed in her. Assuming that is the case, then I think it follows that she killed the child for much the same reason. She didn't want to get "caught" and thus get into "trouble." Having been a teen myself, I remember very clearly how much I did not want to get caught when I'd done something I knew my mother would not approve of. While I did not wind up pregnant, I still remember that feeling of near panic at the thought of my mother finding out about something I'd done when I knew good and well that it would lead to punishment of some kind and (honestly, worse in my mind) her being disappointed in me. I have a niece who had this exact thing happen to her. She got pregnant at 14 and hid it until she just couldn't hide it any longer. Then she lied about how and when it had happened. It took forever for the whole story to come out. And she did all this because she knew she shouldn't have been having sex in the first place. So, IF this was this young woman's motivation for the infanticide, then I think she deserved far more than a few months in prison. Because this is a wholly selfish motivation. IF, on the other hand, her parents were some kind of lunatics who she feared would beat her within an inch of her life, or who would have been likely to literally throw her out of the house and totally disown her, then that, in my mind, would be a mitigating factor that should be taken into account. (Please understand that I am just tossing out scenarios here, not accusing anyone of anything.)

Since none of us knows the full details of this situation, I don't think any of us can give any kind of "specific" answer as to what should have been done differently or what exact sentence she should have been given. Even if she was literally afraid of her parents, though, I still believe that less than a year of jail time is inappropriate. I would not go so far as to say she should spend her life in prison or that she should be banned from having other children in the future or any such radical idea. Perhaps, with therapy, she can be a perfectly useful and healthy member of society. She may even one day wind up being a good mother, though I don't know how she'd ever explain this situation to her children. And with the pervasiveness of the internet, you can bet any future children she might have WILL find out about this incident. I simply believe that any life is worth more than a few months in jail.

Presumably, the judge knew all the details that we do not. Even if my worst case scenario were true, though, the problem arises with the fact that this young woman's sentence was on par with other similar cases. Were all of these other cases situations where the person who chose to murder their child lived in a house where they had reason to be deathly afraid of the consequences of giving birth to a child? That seems unlikely. Which was the point I was trying to make. It isn't so much this particular case that disturbs me, but the apparent trend of using issues that countless other people deal with on a daily basis as an excuse for not handing down a stiff sentence. My niece gave birth to her child, despite some who told her she ought to have an abortion. She also chose to keep her son. She finished high school and then went to a vocational college and now works as a nursing assistant. She has since married and given birth to a second child and has a third on the way. And believe me when I tell you that she did it all with virtually no support from her parents. (Her mother told her she wished the baby would die. Just in case you think I'm glossing over the situation.) The point is, teenage girls get pregnant all the time, yet the vast majority of them do not actually murder their own children. Just under 8 months in police custody for such a crime is shameful.

And that brings us to the next question, "what steps should be taken to ensure that stuff like this happens less often (ideally never again)?"

Well, I don't know what can be done to stop it. I'm quite certain that establishing a pattern of letting people who murder their children off with a few months of jail time is not going to prove to be much of a hindrance, though. To me, it is much like the issue of driving while intoxicated. I have no idea how many times I've seen reports of people who have literally dozens of DUI's on their record, yet continue to drive because they continue to receive a fine or a ticket but no or minimal jail time. Usually they finally wind up in jail after they finally cause an accident that kills someone. I do not advocate for the jailing of ever person who gets even a single DUI, but surely there should be some limit to how often it can happen before something more drastic is done? Perhaps like the "3 strikes" rule for felons? The point being, if you send the message that infanticide comes with almost no consequences, more teens (or others) are going to start viewing it as a viable solution to their "problem."

I'll be honest and say that I don't know how to fix things. On one hand, it's very easy to simply toss out something like, "teach kids to abstain!" While I do believe this is an important lesson and a viable one, I also know that it isn't the be all and end all of answers. Nor is "just make sure they're at least educated about how to be safe." Neither of these deals with the root problem. The fact is that young women have been getting pregnant outside of marriage pretty much forever. (Let's NOT take this and turn it into any kind of debate about whether or not Adam and Eve were married, okay? ) But I think there's been an uptick in teen pregnancies since more and more parents have started playing less of a role in their children's lives. My mother was always there. Not that she didn't have a job, she worked when I was very young, then spent several years as a "stay at home mom" before going back to work part time, then full time. Still, she was always THERE. I didn't go anywhere or do anything without her having all the details. I had a curfew and kept it. I went out with no boy without my mother meeting him and getting time to speak with him a bit first. I never went anywhere without my mother okaying the clothes I was wearing first. These days, teens start screaming about their rights being suppressed if their parents so much as hint that they observe any kind of rules. Worse, many parents will excuse reckless and sometimes outright dangerous behavior in their children by claiming that they don't want to "stifle" their creativity.

So I think the solution must begin in the home. I shudder to think how many teens (boys and girls) are out there pretty much living their lives on their own terms with very minimal participation or input from their parents. Again, I have no idea of the specifics of this particular case, but I can't help but wonder where her parents were when she was puking her guts out with morning sickness. Or when she gave birth in their house. (Holy cow, how'd they miss that?) And wasn't there blood? How did her mother not notice the blood on the sheets, clothes, towels, whatever? I'm not blaming the parents specifically, either, just wondering how involved they were in their daughter's life.

Basically, there are just too many factors that go into any given situation to necessarily say that they should all be handled in a set way or have specific consequences that are written in stone. Which is, again, what bothers me most about this case. Not just that the girl murdered her own child, but that there are multiple other similar cases and that in all of them, a few months was deemed to be adequate jail time for the crime. The perceived collective apathy towards the murder victims in favor of sympathy for their killers is frightening to me.