What ELSE Happens at the Gathering of the Saints?

[Eccl12v13]

First let’s use the word of God and some plain common sense to establish some FACTS:

Let’s start with the Great Tribulation Period (GTP) and what God’s word tells us about it.

Dan.12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Matt.24

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now how many times like this can there be? There can only be ONE time that was not since the beginning of the world, or since there was a nation, nor to the time that Jesus was speaking, nor ever shall be! So we know for a fact that the period of time spoken of in Dan.12 and in Matt.24 are the SAME time.

Now let’s use common sense; If a time period comes around that is very terrible….but then another time period comes AFTER that is worse than the previous….could that first time period be the GTP? NO! Because God’s word tells us when the GTP comes there will NOT be a time worse than it; before OR after! And the entire time…the WHOLE time, however long it will last, is known as the Great Tribulation Period (GTP). God’s word does NOT say it is broken up into (2) half’s! Because if the 2nd half is worse than the first, then how could the first half be known as the GTP? God would have lied to us!

By the same token consider this; The Battle of Armageddon happens AFTER the GTP! And just from the description given to us we know it will be a very, very bad time,

“By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails

were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.”

But will IT be worse than the GTP? Again….God’s word tells us NO! It can’t because scriptures tells us the GTP will be, “…a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation…”, and “…shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

So not even the battle of Armageddon will be as bad as what God’s word tell us the GTP will be!

So again….just so we are clear, the GTP can only happen ONCE! The ENITRE period is known as the GTP and NOTHING, no time period can be worse than it; before OR after!

Next; let’s read who will rule during this GTP!

Rev 13

[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev.13

[12] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So that man of sin will rule bycausing miracles and having both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond receive a mark!

Now one fact we know for sure is that the man of sin, also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one WILL rule at some point for a certain amount of time and he will cause all to receive a mark. And it will be this time that the GTP begins! Now those that believe in the pre-rapture, believe they will be taken from this earth BEFORE this tribulation period occurs and will not be subjected to having to make the choice to receive the mark of the beast or not!

Well……Let's read what God's word tells us, then use that to figure it all out;

1 Thes.4

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now BOTH of these scriptures are describing the SAME event, the gathering of the saints! And thus far we know for a fact that at this time there will be;

- A shout from the Lord Himself!

- The voice of the archangel!

- The sounding of the trump of God!

- The gathering of the saints unto Him!

- AND the revealing of the man of sin also known as the son of perdition!

Before going any further…..does this sound like an event that will be a secret? Hardly!

Now Paul tells us these things SHALL not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Let's continue;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what is Paul telling us here? That the man of sin, which is also the son of perdition AND that Wicked one will be consumed when Jesus gathers the saints. Now let's confirm this;

Dan.7

[25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Above we are told of the same event; the man of sin will have his dominion taken away and it will be consumed.

Dan.8

[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Here we have the same person being spoken of with Jesus doing the same as Paul tells us in 2Thes.2, here in Dan.8 it tells us that his power was not his own. Let's confirm this in 2 Thes.2

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So this same person spoken of in Dan.8 is the same spoken of in 2 Thes.2. We are also told in Dan.8 he will stand against Jesus and will be broken without hand, just as Paul told us in 2Thes.2;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what information have we just read from God's word?

- When Jesus returns there will be the gathering of the saints!

- At the same time the man of sin also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one will be consumed and broken without hand by the Prince of princes; Jesus Christ!

Now let’s use some common sense again here to figure this all out;

If the saints are to be gathered so that they do not go through the GTP, BUT the man of sin is consumed at this same time, “…consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”, WHEN does the GTP happen? WHEN does the man of sin have time to rule and cause all to receive a mark if he is consumed at the same time the saints are gathered?

Think about it…..When did the wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition have time to cause all, both small and great, to receive a sign so that they can buy and sell? God’s word tell us he WILL do it because THAT is the GTP! But if he is consumed when Jesus returns HOW and WHEN does he have the time to rule as the scriptures state? Because when Jesus returns there will be NO time for him to rule for he will be, "...consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" and, "...shall be broken without hand." Let's confirm all of what we just read;

Matt.24

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again we have the gathering of His elect all happening AFTER the tribulation period!

And again…..if the man of sin is consumed when Jesus returns to gather the saints WHEN does the GTP happen?

So.....will the saints be here during the Tribulation period? We can only go with what thus saith the Lord!

And God’s word tells us YES….we will!

.

[rollinTHUNDER]

First let’s use the word of God and some plain common sense to establish some FACTS:

Let’s start with the Great Tribulation Period (GTP) and what God’s word tells us about it.

Dan.12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Matt.24

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now how many times like this can there be? There can only be ONE time that was not since the beginning of the world, or since there was a nation, nor to the time that Jesus was speaking, nor ever shall be! So we know for a fact that the period of time spoken of in Dan.12 and in Matt.24 are the SAME time.

Now let’s use common sense; If a time period comes around that is very terrible….but then another time period comes AFTER that is worse than the previous….could that first time period be the GTP? NO! Because God’s word tells us when the GTP comes there will NOT be a time worse than it; before OR after! And the entire time…the WHOLE time, however long it will last, is known as the Great Tribulation Period (GTP). God’s word does NOT say it is broken up into (2) half’s! Because if the 2nd half is worse than the first, then how could the first half be known as the GTP? God would have lied to us!

By the same token consider this; The Battle of Armageddon happens AFTER the GTP! And just from the description given to us we know it will be a very, very bad time,

“By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails

were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.”

But will IT be worse than the GTP? Again….God’s word tells us NO! It can’t because scriptures tells us the GTP will be, “…a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation…”, and “…shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

So not even the battle of Armageddon will be as bad as what God’s word tell us the GTP will be!

So again….just so we are clear, the GTP can only happen ONCE! The ENITRE period is known as the GTP and NOTHING, no time period can be worse than it; before OR after!

Next; let’s read who will rule during this GTP!

Rev 13

[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev.13

[12] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So that man of sin will rule bycausing miracles and having both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond receive a mark!

Now one fact we know for sure is that the man of sin, also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one WILL rule at some point for a certain amount of time and he will cause all to receive a mark. And it will be this time that the GTP begins! Now those that believe in the pre-rapture, believe they will be taken from this earth BEFORE this tribulation period occurs and will not be subjected to having to make the choice to receive the mark of the beast or not!

Well……Let's read what God's word tells us, then use that to figure it all out;

1 Thes.4

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now BOTH of these scriptures are describing the SAME event, the gathering of the saints! And thus far we know for a fact that at this time there will be;

- A shout from the Lord Himself!

- The voice of the archangel!

- The sounding of the trump of God!

- The gathering of the saints unto Him!

- AND the revealing of the man of sin also known as the son of perdition!

Before going any further…..does this sound like an event that will be a secret? Hardly!

Now Paul tells us these things SHALL not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Let's continue;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what is Paul telling us here? That the man of sin, which is also the son of perdition AND that Wicked one will be consumed when Jesus gathers the saints. Now let's confirm this;

Dan.7

[25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Above we are told of the same event; the man of sin will have his dominion taken away and it will be consumed.

Dan.8

[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Here we have the same person being spoken of with Jesus doing the same as Paul tells us in 2Thes.2, here in Dan.8 it tells us that his power was not his own. Let's confirm this in 2 Thes.2

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So this same person spoken of in Dan.8 is the same spoken of in 2 Thes.2. We are also told in Dan.8 he will stand against Jesus and will be broken without hand, just as Paul told us in 2Thes.2;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what information have we just read from God's word?

- When Jesus returns there will be the gathering of the saints!

- At the same time the man of sin also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one will be consumed and broken without hand by the Prince of princes; Jesus Christ!

Now let’s use some common sense again here to figure this all out;

If the saints are to be gathered so that they do not go through the GTP, BUT the man of sin is consumed at this same time, “…consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”, WHEN does the GTP happen? WHEN does the man of sin have time to rule and cause all to receive a mark if he is consumed at the same time the saints are gathered?

Think about it…..When did the wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition have time to cause all, both small and great, to receive a sign so that they can buy and sell? God’s word tell us he WILL do it because THAT is the GTP! But if he is consumed when Jesus returns HOW and WHEN does he have the time to rule as the scriptures state? Because when Jesus returns there will be NO time for him to rule for he will be, "...consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" and, "...shall be broken without hand." Let's confirm all of what we just read;

Matt.24

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again we have the gathering of His elect all happening AFTER the tribulation period!

And again…..if the man of sin is consumed when Jesus returns to gather the saints WHEN does the GTP happen?

So.....will the saints be here during the Tribulation period? We can only go with what thus saith the Lord!

And God’s word tells us YES….we will!

.

Hi Eccl,

Welcome to worthy!

It appears that the time of trouble that no nation has seen before, the tribulation that will never be equalled again, are all describing the Armageddon war. I also believe Ezek. 38 will be the beginning of that war, but it will be fought on many different fronts with several different stages, after the abomination of desolation. God will glorify Himself as He destroys the Russian/Arab armies that come to take a spoil, with an earthquake and other natural disasters, which will allow the remnant a brief time to flee to the hills and the elect to be gathered immediately. This, I believe, is when those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, but then the war will continue to the point where all nations will be gathered (Joel 3:2), as the nations will turn and fight against Christ and His army in the end. There will never be another time like this ever again.

Many assume that this time of trouble and/or tribulation is the seven year tribulation, but there is no such thing. Make no mistake, Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, otherwise it would be a false prophecy, which we know it is not. On the other hand, this war can be shortened and/or interupted with no problem, but the end will still come at the appointed time. Daniel gives the time remaining to the end, but nowhere are we told when the time of trouble or tribulation will end or when those days will be cut short.

Yes, we will be gathered immediately after the tribulation of those days, but not a seven year tribulation, for we are not appointed to wrath.

[joi]

Hi Eccl,

Welcome to worthy!

It appears that the time of trouble that no nation has seen before, the tribulation that will never be equalled again, are all describing the Armageddon war. I also believe Ezek. 38 will be the beginning of that war, but it will be fought on many different fronts with several different stages, after the abomination of desolation. God will glorify Himself as He destroys the Russian/Arab armies that come to take a spoil, with an earthquake and other natural disasters, which will allow the remnant a brief time to flee to the hills and the elect to be gathered immediately. This, I believe, is when those days will be shortened for the sake of the elect, but then the war will continue to the point where all nations will be gathered (Joel 3:2), as the nations will turn and fight against Christ and His army in the end. There will never be another time like this ever again.

Many assume that this time of trouble and/or tribulation is the seven year tribulation, but there is no such thing. Make no mistake, Daniel's 70th week can not be shortened, otherwise it would be a false prophecy, which we know it is not. On the other hand, this war can be shortened and/or interupted with no problem, but the end will still come at the appointed time. Daniel gives the time remaining to the end, but nowhere are we told when the time of trouble or tribulation will end or when those days will be cut short.

Yes, we will be gathered immediately after the tribulation of those days, but not a seven year tribulation, for we are not appointed to wrath.

I am curious as to when you see the 70th. week occurring? Will you clarify that for me?

[Eccl12v13]

Daniel gives the time remaining to the end, but nowhere are we told when the time of trouble or tribulation will end or when those days will be cut short.

Let's read God's word for answers;

Dan.12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And at what time is this that Michael shall stand? For that we must go a read a few verses back. Let's read....

Dan.11

[36] And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

[37] Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

It is during this kings rule that Michael will stand. Now let's go back to the 12th chapter to find how long this time of trouble will last...

Dan.12

[5] Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.

[6] And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

And which wonders is he speaking of? Those described to us in the 11th chapter of Daniel. Let's continue....

[7] And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

And how long is Time, Times and an half? Let's read...

[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

So Michael will stand at the end of the tribulation period. And this tribulation period starts when the daily sacrifices are stopped and last for a thousand two hundred and ninety days, or 3.5 years!

.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Eccl12v13.

First let’s use the word of God and some plain common sense to establish some FACTS:

Let’s start with the Great Tribulation Period (GTP) and what God’s word tells us about it.

Dan.12

[1] And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:

Matt.24

[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Now how many times like this can there be? There can only be ONE time that was not since the beginning of the world, or since there was a nation, nor to the time that Jesus was speaking, nor ever shall be! So we know for a fact that the period of time spoken of in Dan.12 and in Matt.24 are the SAME time.

Well, hi there, Eccl12v13! I'm here, too...for now, anyway!

Let's see: you've made some bad assumptions in this conclusion: First, you are ASSUMING that there can be only one such time. However, if Yeshua` in His prophecy of Matt. 24:21 was not talking about a definite time, then there might actually be different times in view. Yeshua`s words in Matt. 24:21 are in response to what would happen IF His students didn't pray as instructed in verse 20. Enough of this single-verse stuff; ALWAYS read a verse within its context!

Matt. 24:15-22

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

KJV

Second, you are ASSUMING that the "great tribulation" mentioned in verse 21 absolutely MUST take place. No, this is a conditional situation. IF they so pray as instructed in verse 20, THEN they will avoid such "terrible pressure" in verse 21. And, with this understood as a conditional situation, then the "great tribulation" of Yeshua`s words could not only be avoided (in 69 to 70 A.D.) but WAS avoided, as history informs us! This is not something that MUST happen in our future, but is an event that COULD HAVE HAPPENED in the past, still in Yeshua`s future at the time of the prediction! There are enough contextual clues within these chapters (Matt. 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) to tell us that at least part of this prophecy was about the time when the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and not within our future.

For instance, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains."

This is talking about the inhabitants of Judaea, the "Southern Kingdom" of Y'hudah that first formed when the northern tribes split away from Y'hudah during the days of Rechav`am (Rehoboam), the son of Shlomo (Solomon), when he made the ill-advised statement, "My little finger is thicker than my father's waist! Yes, my father burdened you with a heavy yoke, but I will make it heavier! My father controlled you with whips, but I will control you with scorpions!" (1 Kings 12:11 & 14.) After having gone into captivity during the time of Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) and Dani'el, and returning under the leadership of Zorobavel (Zerubbabel), Nechemyahu (Nehemiah) and `Ezra, it was the country in which Yeshua` and His students lived! It was the country that was taken tributary to Roma and suffered the Diaspora at the hands of the Romans!

So, what good would it do to tell modern Isra'el, who now lives in that Land, to flee into the mountains today?

What good would it do to tell someone who is on a rooftop now "not to come down" to escape?

Even within modern Jerusalem, there are skyscrapers and multi-story buildings that are wide apart. Why should they stay upon their rooftop?! HOWEVER, in the Old City of Yerushalayim, there was an escape route called "the Road of the Rooftops" that involved jumping from rooftop to rooftop of the close-set buildings. One could travel in this manner to the city wall and escape over the wall. That just won't work today! Even if one is talking about the Old City within modern Jerusalem, modern Jerusalem extends far beyond the Old City's walls!

There are other contextual clues that demand that Yeshua` was talking about the Jerusalem of His time period. Who would care besides a Jew if their flight had to be on Shabbat (the Sabbath)?! Today, even Orthodox Jews might make exceptions of the Shabbat rules in an emergency (although most wouldn't)! However, other sects of Judaism - Conservative, Reformed, Reconstructionist, and Humanistic Jews - wouldn't much care about running on Shabbat! However, the Separatists of Yeshua`s day (the P'rushiym or Pharisees) would CERTAINLY care! A Shabbat-day's journey was the distance from Yerushalayim to Har haZeitiym (the Mount of Olives). They couldn't travel any farther than that on Shabbat without their conscience telling them they were sinning against G-D!

Now let’s use common sense; If a time period comes around that is very terrible….but then another time period comes AFTER that is worse than the previous….could that first time period be the GTP? NO! Because God’s word tells us when the GTP comes there will NOT be a time worse than it; before OR after! And the entire time…the WHOLE time, however long it will last, is known as the Great Tribulation Period (GTP). God’s word does NOT say it is broken up into (2) half’s! Because if the 2nd half is worse than the first, then how could the first half be known as the GTP? God would have lied to us!

By the same token consider this; The Battle of Armageddon happens AFTER the GTP! And just from the description given to us we know it will be a very, very bad time,

“By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails

were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.”

But will IT be worse than the GTP? Again….God’s word tells us NO! It can’t because scriptures tells us the GTP will be, “…a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation…”, and “…shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

So not even the battle of Armageddon will be as bad as what God’s word tell us the GTP will be!

So again….just so we are clear, the GTP can only happen ONCE! The ENITRE period is known as the GTP and NOTHING, no time period can be worse than it; before OR after!

It is not wise to tie yourself to labels. Yeshua` was not speaking about the "great tribulation" as though it was a label, particularly when modern believers capitalize the words or reduce them to an acronym ("GTP"). Each of these words meant something to both the Speaker and the listeners! It was not just a "GTP" or a "Great Tribulation Period," but it was a time of TERRIBLE PRESSURE (thlipsis megalee)! While it is true that an event worse than any that came before it and any that would come after it makes that event a superlative, a worst event ever, such as may be in the case of Rev. 7:14, Matthew 24:21 (and Mark 13:19 and Luke 21:23) Yeshua` is not talking about such an actual event.

Next; let’s read who will rule during this GTP!

Rev 13

[7] And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev.13

[12] And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

[13] And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

[14] And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

[15] And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So that man of sin will rule bycausing miracles and having both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond receive a mark!

Now one fact we know for sure is that the man of sin, also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one WILL rule at some point for a certain amount of time and he will cause all to receive a mark. And it will be this time that the GTP begins! Now those that believe in the pre-rapture, believe they will be taken from this earth BEFORE this tribulation period occurs and will not be subjected to having to make the choice to receive the mark of the beast or not!

Well……Let's read what God's word tells us, then use that to figure it all out;

1 Thes.4

[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

2 Thes.2

[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Now BOTH of these scriptures are describing the SAME event, the gathering of the saints! And thus far we know for a fact that at this time there will be;

- A shout from the Lord Himself!

- The voice of the archangel!

- The sounding of the trump of God!

- The gathering of the saints unto Him!

- AND the revealing of the man of sin also known as the son of perdition!

Before going any further…..does this sound like an event that will be a secret? Hardly!

Now Paul tells us these things SHALL not happen until the man of sin is revealed. Let's continue;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what is Paul telling us here? That the man of sin, which is also the son of perdition AND that Wicked one will be consumed when Jesus gathers the saints. Now let's confirm this;

Dan.7

[25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

[26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Above we are told of the same event; the man of sin will have his dominion taken away and it will be consumed.

Dan.8

[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Here we have the same person being spoken of with Jesus doing the same as Paul tells us in 2Thes.2, here in Dan.8 it tells us that his power was not his own. Let's confirm this in 2 Thes.2

[9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

So this same person spoken of in Dan.8 is the same spoken of in 2 Thes.2. We are also told in Dan.8 he will stand against Jesus and will be broken without hand, just as Paul told us in 2Thes.2;

[8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

So what information have we just read from God's word?

- When Jesus returns there will be the gathering of the saints!

- At the same time the man of sin also known as the son of perdition and that Wicked one will be consumed and broken without hand by the Prince of princes; Jesus Christ!

Now let’s use some common sense again here to figure this all out;

If the saints are to be gathered so that they do not go through the GTP, BUT the man of sin is consumed at this same time, “…consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”, WHEN does the GTP happen? WHEN does the man of sin have time to rule and cause all to receive a mark if he is consumed at the same time the saints are gathered?

Think about it…..When did the wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition have time to cause all, both small and great, to receive a sign so that they can buy and sell? God’s word tell us he WILL do it because THAT is the GTP! But if he is consumed when Jesus returns HOW and WHEN does he have the time to rule as the scriptures state? Because when Jesus returns there will be NO time for him to rule for he will be, "...consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:" and, "...shall be broken without hand." Let's confirm all of what we just read;

Matt.24

[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Again we have the gathering of His elect all happening AFTER the tribulation period!

And again…..if the man of sin is consumed when Jesus returns to gather the saints WHEN does the GTP happen?

So.....will the saints be here during the Tribulation period? We can only go with what thus saith the Lord!

And God’s word tells us YES….we will!

.

Quite simply, the "tribulation period" is NOT restricted to a mere 7 years. Yeshua` talked about it occurring when Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) was destroyed in 69-70 A.D. (Luke 21:20-24) and talked about it continuing until He returned (Matt. 24:29-31). The mistake is equating the "tribulation period" with the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27. They are not the same.

(Furthermore, how could a horrible event such as the battle of Armageddon or rather Har Megiddown (Tel Megiddo near Haifa and Nazareth, Isra'el) be AFTER the terrible pressure on the Jewish people?! That really doesn't make practical sense.

[Eccl12v13]

Let's see: you've made some bad assumptions in this conclusion:

First, you are ASSUMING that there can be only one such time.

Second, you are ASSUMING that the "great tribulation" mentioned in verse 21 absolutely MUST take place.

So, what good would it do to tell modern Isra'el, who now lives in that Land, to flee into the mountains today?

What good would it do to tell someone who is on a rooftop now "not to come down" to escape?

It is not wise to tie yourself to labels.

Quite simply, the "tribulation period" is NOT restricted to a mere 7 years.

(Furthermore, how could a horrible event such as the battle of Armageddon or rather Har Megiddown (Tel Megiddo near Haifa and Nazareth, Isra'el) be AFTER the terrible pressure on the Jewish people?! That really doesn't make practical sense.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Eccl12v13.

Let's see: you've made some bad assumptions in this conclusion:

First, you are ASSUMING that there can be only one such time.

Second, you are ASSUMING that the "great tribulation" mentioned in verse 21 absolutely MUST take place.

So, what good would it do to tell modern Isra'el, who now lives in that Land, to flee into the mountains today?

What good would it do to tell someone who is on a rooftop now "not to come down" to escape?

It is not wise to tie yourself to labels.

Quite simply, the "tribulation period" is NOT restricted to a mere 7 years.

(Furthermore, how could a horrible event such as the battle of Armageddon or rather Har Megiddown (Tel Megiddo near Haifa and Nazareth, Isra'el) be AFTER the terrible pressure on the Jewish people?! That really doesn't make practical sense.

Let me guess.......you do not agree with the lesson? And that is fine. Considering what most have been taught I doubt many, if any, will accept it. But that is not my call. God opens the eyes to those He wishes. I am simply quoting scriptures here. There are some, that may not admit it, that have read and have probably taken something away they have not been taught before and now have been given something to at least think about.

.

Yes, God opens the eyes of those whom He wishes, but you are NOT "simply quoting scriptures here." You are quoting scriptures WITH COMMENTS and in such an order as to support your interpretation of those Scriptures. That's not a necessarily bad thing, but we must be honest. I do the same thing, too. "Let God be true and EVERY man a liar," Paul said (Romans 3:4). But, hey, thank you for the lesson.

In the Messiah's love,

Roy

[OneLight]

sent a PM instead

[Guest yod]

Quite simply, the "tribulation period" is NOT restricted to a mere 7 years. Yeshua` talked about it occurring when Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) was destroyed in 69-70 A.D. (Luke 21:20-24) and talked about it continuing until He returned (Matt. 24:29-31). The mistake is equating the "tribulation period" with the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27. They are not the same.

(Furthermore, how could a horrible event such as the battle of Armageddon or rather Har Megiddown (Tel Megiddo near Haifa and Nazareth, Isra'el) be AFTER the terrible pressure on the Jewish people?! That really doesn't make practical sense.

FInally....someone who allows the Word to say what it says without injecting it with their pet theological presumptions.

Welcome to the WB, bro

[Montana Marv]

Quite simply, the "tribulation period" is NOT restricted to a mere 7 years. Yeshua` talked about it occurring when Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) was destroyed in 69-70 A.D. (Luke 21:20-24) and talked about it continuing until He returned (Matt. 24:29-31). The mistake is equating the "tribulation period" with the 70th Seven of Dani'el 9:24-27. They are not the same.

(Furthermore, how could a horrible event such as the battle of Armageddon or rather Har Megiddown (Tel Megiddo near Haifa and Nazareth, Isra'el) be AFTER the terrible pressure on the Jewish people?! That really doesn't make practical sense.

FInally....someone who allows the Word to say what it says without injecting it with their pet theological presumptions.

Welcome to the WB, bro

The term "tribulation" (the last seven years) or (the Seventh week of Daniel) is a coined term that Christendom has place on this period of time. Which is different from the trails and tribulations that those of the Church are going through now or have already gone through. But the description in Matt 24:21 of a great distress unequaled from the beginning of the world until now; One must equate this with the Flood in Noah's time, very destructive, no survivors except Noah and his family, worse than Armageddon will be, for those during the Flood were unaware, but those who die during Armageddon are aware. Many did not die at Armageddon. This "distress unequaled" is referring to the pouring out of the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments upon all mankind. This 'great distress' or great 'tribulation" does not occur until after the A/D is set up in the temple by the A/C. (According to Matt 24:15) and quoting Daniel 9:27 and 12:11.

So there are a lot of semantics involved. When verbally speaking, one (the hearer) must know the meaning; Cell, has many meanings, or Sale, Sail, or Sell and all pronounced the same. So when one author speaks of the Tribulation eschatology speaking, he is referring to the upcoming end times; Why fight his description?

Biblically speaking the 70th Week of Daniel has not started, the last seven years has not started. A lot of time or very little time between Now and then (the 70th Week).

In Christ

Montana Marv