Preterism versus Futurism

[JohnD]

The Bible is more precise about the rapture than what is generally believed. Partly because some of these passages are rather ambiguous until it is placed in the context of the rapture.

Daniel 12:11-12 (KJV)

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

We've all heard brilliant scholars and theologians defer to the ambiguity of the text... "I don't know what this means, and neither do any of you" David Jeremiah said rather plainly one day. I admire his humility and forthrightness. Few scholars can say the words "I don't know."

Allow me to offer the only context (i believe) it fits in:

Day 1230 (1290 days from the end) will be when the temple sacrifices are abated. This is the first time that the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel can be known (back dating it 1230 days)

Day 1335 is apparently the rapture.

Even in the remaining 1185 days after the rapture, there is still no way to determine (unless you are God the Father of course; Acts 1:6-7) the day or the hour of Jesus' actual return... but we can know the season (Matthew 16:1-3).

[JohnD]

As the time of the Gentiles draws to a close, the Church will fall into less and less favor with the world. It never should have been in cahoots with the world to begin with (which is why her witness has been less and less effective in influencing the world to Christian principles and values). But that's a whole 'nuther thread. Roy mentioned the abomination of desolation (hashiqutz meshomem b'ivrit) began in the first century CE. The Apostle John mentioned the spirit of antichrist (1 John 4:3) which is already in the world (the spirit of antichrist not the antichrist himself, not yet).

1 John 4:1-3 (KJV)

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:18 (KJV)

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

See?

The ultimate is yet to come but the preliminary antichrists / spirit of antichrist have been in the world since at least the first century CE.

The principle was the same with the genuine Christ, many christs preceded him but he is the ultimate Christ (anointed one). Saul was an anointed one as was David... which were not the ultimate Anointed One but were preliminary / prophetic examples of the ultimate. This is why Saul was judged so harshly when he (a prophet and king) offered a priestly sacrifice. There was only to be one prophet priest and king Messiah (Yeshua / Jesus).

[Bold Believer]

To be totally honest,I think the rapture and the second coming are the same event

Very good. You get the golden prize. Now for a bonus, when do they occur?* And just to be technical, they are part of the same event. The rapture is the changing of live believers to resurrected bodies.

*Hint: John 6 and John 12.

[Bold Believer]

Why not get into it? Aren't we here to learn? Aren't we hear to discuss these matters? PLEASE, get into it!

That would be way too much and get too involved for this tiny thread. That's why I wrote the book

Actually, you will find that Matthew 24:29 is a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4

Isaiah 13:9-14:1

9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land.

15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.

22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.

14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob.

KJV

This is then repeated in part within Isaiah 34:

Isaiah 34:1-8

1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

KJV

And, these verses are also quoted in Revelation 6:

Revelation 6:12-17

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

KJV

So, show me how these passages are inconsisent. I may not be from Missouri, but I went to a Bible college there for four years! SHOW ME! These are EXACTLY the same events through a chain of contextual clues, such as the "sky departing as a scroll when it is rolled together" and "skies being shaken and the ground being moved out of its place."

These are different from the sun, moon and stars in Matt. 24:29, and they occur at different times as well.

In Matt. 24:29, the sun does not shine, nor the moon, but the stars are clearly seen.

In Isaiah 13, the stars, sun and moon can not be seen at all, none of them.

In Rev. 6, The sun is blackened or darkened, while the moon will appear as blood red, and the stars will be falling to the earth.

You've got to realize that judgment will begin with the house of the Lord, but it appears that you have eliminated the rapture entirely, not only that, but the wedding supper of the Lamb that will take place in the kingdom of heaven as well.

Furthermore, as I recall, verses 30 and 31 FOLLOW verse 29:

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

This is not the Rapture, my friend; it's the Second Coming!

What is the sign of the Son of man? The rapture won't have any signs as it will occur suddenly and unexpectedly, but once it happens, it will be a sign for the Jews who flee when they see the abomination of desolation. They will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Furthermore, what is this gathering with the great sound of the trumpet? If you believe this is the second coming, then why would we need the angels to gather us again, when we would already be like them after the rapture?

I already told you what the sign of the Son of Man in heaven is: THE FACT OF HIS BEING THERE. They rejected Him as Moschiach, but by all the judgments raining down upon them, which He predicted, He is proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that HE BELONGS IN HEAVEN, IT IS HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE.

[Bold Believer]

AS to the statement that preterism and futurism can't both be true, for me as a partial preterist, that is not so. Both ARE true. The prophecies concerning the Days of Vengeance are fulfilled, but the Second Coming (with the accompying events: resurrection, rapture, burning up of the earth, judgment of the wicked, judgment of Satan, renewed Heaven and Earth and the resettling of the Holy City in its new place) is future.

[Floatingaxe]

John 14:2-4

2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

A very good point. Not to be quarrelsome with brother Roy... but Ephesians 4:8-10 shows the initials pre-resurrected saints (in Avraham's bosom) as the disembodied human residents of heaven. And in Luke 23:43 Yeshua speaking to the first to die in faith going directly to heaven (paradise which is only used three times in scripture and all refer to the place where God is enthroned). 2 Corinthians 5:8 says when believers are absent from the body we are with the Lord whop is the lone resurrected human being / God the Word in heaven (Acts 2:33 / Hebrews 1:3 / 10:12).

Jesus is not the lone human with a body in heaven, however. Both Enoch and Elijah were translated bodily to glory.

What I think is being missed here is when humanity is resurrected, first comes the deliverance of Israel then the judgement of the lost and then old heavens and old earth are done away with replaced by the new heave and new earth (or as some wild eyed kooks like me believe... a new heaven-earth will result). So, brother Roy is correct in that we are not going to be in the present heaven in a resurrected form, but if we die before the end we will be in a disembodied state that is in our spirit.

The new earth and the new firmament will be a complete renewal by the hand of God in the end. We who are Christ's will be resurrected or changed to our glorified state to reign and rule with Christ on Earth in His millennial kingdom, and will remain so forever, through the Great White Throne judgment of the world, ruling and reigning in the universe.

[Floatingaxe]

AS to the statement that preterism and futurism can't both be true, for me as a partial preterist, that is not so. Both ARE true. The prophecies concerning the Days of Vengeance are fulfilled, but the Second Coming (with the accompying events: resurrection, rapture, burning up of the earth, judgment of the wicked, judgment of Satan, renewed Heaven and Earth and the resettling of the Holy City in its new place) is future.

Where is the proof that we have experienced the so-called "Days of Vengeance"? God hasn't even begun to pour out His vengeance!

[JohnD]

AS to the statement that preterism and futurism can't both be true, for me as a partial preterist, that is not so. Both ARE true. The prophecies concerning the Days of Vengeance are fulfilled, but the Second Coming (with the accompying events: resurrection, rapture, burning up of the earth, judgment of the wicked, judgment of Satan, renewed Heaven and Earth and the resettling of the Holy City in its new place) is future.

Partial preterism is only the result of partially using futurist proof texts and arguments (with no substantial reason for this middle of the road position). If you can't in good conscience be a full Preterist then take all the futurist points to their logical conclusions and be a full futurist as the Bible teaches us to be by all the evidence (not just the ones you like or pick and choose).

[rollinTHUNDER]

If you please, what is the name of your book? You can send it to me privately, if you wish. Thanks.

There's a link in my signature below.

If you would please look up the Hebrew of Isaiah 13, you will find that the stars and the constellations can still be seen, but not clearly, and that has to do with their COLOR! It's not that they can't be seen. Now, in the prophecies warning against the coming of Asshur (Assyria) and Bavel (Babylon), the wording is different: there, the sun, moon, and stars are darkened by reason of the smoke in the air. Not so in these prophecies.

The fact that the sun, moon and stars are different shows that these are taking place at different times. God's wrath will be swift and severe, but it won't be poured out all at once. It will be more like waves of judgment, as seen in the seals, trumpets and bowls. You may not believe in the rapture as some don't, but this doesn't mean that it won't happen. God is not bound by what men may believe or not believe. All of these prophecies will be fulfilled according to His plan, purpose and will, whether we can understand them or not. So, I would not be so quick to eliminate things based on our understanding or misunderstanding. For just as Israel was watching for Christ when He came the first time, very few of them were able to receive Him, because He came in a way that they were not expecting. The Scriptures were there, but they were eyeing the wrong ones. Instead of observing the Scriptures that foretold of a babe in a manger that would ultimately be a sacrifice for the sins of the world, they were observing the scriptures telling of their mighty deliverer, a conquerring King, which we know now is the second coming.

They had no way of knowing that He would come and die, or be returning again some 2000 years later, for Christ was a great mystery and concealed in the Old Testament. We can easily see this now, after the fact. But now, we are waiting for Him to return. We know from scripture that history was designed to repeat itself. And now, Paul tells us that the rapture (our catching away or being snatched or whatever you may call it) is a profound mystery. So I would not be so quick to discount this just because we don't have a firm grasp or understanding of it. The scriptures are there, so we should count on it happening, because it will. It's guaranteed by God's Word!

The apostle Paul also warned us that the time would come when men would not endure sound doctrine, but would instead teach myths. Now as the time draws near to His second coming, Christ, Himself, has repeatedly warned us to keep watch and be ready. What did He mean by this exactly? Did you know that each time He gave this warning it was in His parables? That's where many clues have been hidden. Daniel was told that the words were shut up and sealed until the time of the end, but modern scholars have ignored that first part, and instead they grabbed hold of the second part that says; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase, even to the time of the end, which they assume is referring to modern technology. But Daniel was also told that the wise would know, but the foolish wouldn't understand, which is alluding to the parables in the New Testament, which is the foretold increase of knowledge. So not only did Christ continue Daniel's prophecy and answer the questions he had about the things he was not able to understand, but He also hid many clues in His parables about the mystery of His second coming.

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." (Luke 8:10)

2 Tim. 4:3-4

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

I'm not sure why the Lord called me to write this book, especially when I wasn't a writer to begin with, nor did I have the slightest bit of interest in becoming a writer. But when I got saved 22 years ago, the Lord told me I was going to write. At that time I didn't even know what Bible prophecy was, and I wouldn't for another year or so. Then in 1990 someone told me about an interesting book. Long story short, after I read it, that was the beginning of a keen interest that started to develop in me about the rapture. After 21 years of studying this subject, and 7 years writing this book, it will finally be released officially in two weeks. I have a hunch that because of Paul's warning above, many have been deceived by all of the false assumptions, misconceptions and myths being taught by many modern scholars today, which I untangle as many of these as I can in the first part of my book. This is the only reason I can think of that He would call a non-writer to write, and because He chooses the things that are not to nullify the things that are (1 Cor. 1:25-29).

Not to over-hype this book, because the readers will ultimately be the ones to decide, but it's going to blow these scholar's minds, as the Lord has poured me out a double portion. This book unveals not just one, but two brand new theories, which is why my editor wrote in the teaser that it leads to a watershed moment in biblical prophecy.

But rest assured, it was never my intention to start a new theory at all. I simply discovered a mistake that scholars made about the increase of knowledge and then one thing led to another. Then as I was explaining what it actually is, I started breaking it down, which led right into a brand new rapture theory. It kind of seems like it was an accident to me, but I believe the Lord must have known all along where this would lead. I was the one that didn't know and I was completely surprised! In fact, I didn't even realize it was a new rapture theory until I was already finished writing this book.

Actually, I agree with ENOCH2010; the "Rapture" is part and parcel with the Second Coming. Based on your understanding of "the kingdom of heaven," I take it that you believe that this will occur in some realm called "Heaven," right? Sorry, but there's NO SUCH PLACE! We are NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven!" We are instructed, rather, to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES and the RESURRECTION OF OUR LOVED ONES!

There's much involved in understanding the Scriptures on this matter: First, it is a common misunderstanding that we are three-part creatures consisting of "body, soul, and spirit," as though these three parts are three separate things that are then combined. Some believe that, when we die, our spirits and souls go to be with God and our bodies are buried in the ground. That's only partially and vaguely correct. The Greek word "sooma" (some write "soma") is translated "body." The Greek word "psuchee" is translated as "soul," and the Greek word "pneuma" is translated as "spirit." The Hebrew word "geviya`" is translated "body." The Hebrew word "nefesh" (some write "nephesh") is translated as "soul," and the Hebrew word "ruach" is translated as "spirit."

When you look closely at the words "pneuma" and "ruach," you will find that they are also translated as "wind" or "breath" as a "blowing" or "blast of air." When you look closely at the words "psuchee" and "nefesh," you will find that they mean "a breathing creature" or "one that breathes." Looking at the two sets of three words in both languages, one will discover that it is the "psuchee"/"nefesh" that is the LITERAL COMBINATION of the "sooma"/"geviya`" and the "pneuma"/"ruach." Concretely speaking, the only way that one can be a "breathing creature" is to have the "breath" combined with the "body!" If one wants to think of the "pneuma"/"ruach" as an "immaterial part" of a human being, then the "psuchee"/"nefesh" ("soul") must be a combination of the immaterial part ("pneuma"/"ruach"/"spirit") and the material part ("sooma"/"geviya`"/"body") of a human being. Therefore, "soul" = "spirit" + "body." When the "spirit" leaves the "body," it is no longer a "soul." I believe that the primary understanding IS the concrete, literal understanding of these words, and that they are strictly referring to the "breath" in a "body" making man a "living soul" - a "living breather." These Hebrew and Greek words are used for both human beings and for animals. The fact that human beings are "souls" is NOT what separates us from the animals! What separates us from the animals is the "IMAGE of God!"

As proof, if one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 30; and 2:19, one will find that the word "nefesh" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "souls," too!

If one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 6:17; 7:15, 22; and Eccl. 3:21, one will find that the word "ruach" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "spirits," too!

There's no real mystery here. The same God who created human beings also created the animals, and we were BOTH created the same way, with the exception that God took special pains to create the Man and not just speaking him into existence.

A better understanding of this, gives us a clearer understanding of verses that use these words, either in Hebrew or in Greek: For instance, one will have a better understanding of Hebrews 4:12:

Hebrews 4:12

12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

KJV

The author of Hebrews is simply saying that the Word of God is ALIVE and POWERFUL and sharper than any two-edged sword, slicing even down to the dividing apart of the breathing creature from his breath, and of the joints from the marrow, and is someone who can tell the difference between the thoughts one has and the intentions of the core of one's being.

Also, the "kingdom of heaven" simply means the "kingdom from the sky," because the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven," means "the sky!" One can see this in the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4. (The same can also be said for the Hebrew.)

As far as the "wedding supper of the Lamb" occurring in "Heaven," or "the kingdom of heaven" as you add, there's a problem. A Jewish wedding is always accompanied with wine, as one can see at Yeshua`s first miracle at the wedding in Cana. HOWEVER, Yeshua` said,

Matthew 26:29

29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

KJV

Mark 14:25

25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

KJV

Luke 22:18

18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

KJV

This is not in some mythical, mystical, ethereal place called "Heaven," my friend; this is when HE RETURNS! When He comes back to this earth, THEN He will drink it new (FRESH from a new harvest) with His disciples!

Matthew 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

KJV

You are saying that the rapture won't have any signs and we would already be like them (the messengers) because you are assuming that the rapture happens first! However, if what ENOCH2010 and I are saying is correct, then the rapture is NOT what happens first, although it will be among the first things to happen at the Second Coming. The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are there to gather us - to conduct us - to where we are going. Furthermore, we are NOT being gathered to be taken to "Heaven"; we are being gathered to be conducted to "ISRA'EL!" The Scriptures NEVER SAY that we go to "Heaven" following the Rapture! Indeed, the "Rapture" (Greek: "harpazo" meaning "to be snatched away," NOT "caught up") is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us to where we need to be in the skies over Isra'el!

Yeshua` never says He will come back to take us to "Heaven"; He DOES say, however, that He will come back "with ten thousands of His saints" to fight against the nations who come against Isra'el and will DELIVER them! He will come back to RESCUE ISRA'EL! They are His FAMILY! LITERALLY!!

Finally, I'm not going to say a whole lot about it now, but the "abomination of desolation" is ALREADY STARTED (it started in the first century) and will continue until the "desolate," national Isra'el, are no longer "desolate" when they plead with God and say to His Messiah Yeshua`, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" "Welcome, Comer in the authority of ADONAI!"

It appears that you are a post-tribber here, if you believe the rapture occurs as Christ is returning in the second coming. Although the post-trib. theory is much closer to the truth than the pre-trib theory, it has problems of it's own, which I also mention in my book.

There are actually three heavens. I'm no scientist, but the first heaven is basically the air that we breathe and the earths atmosphere where birds are seen flying around. Then in the second heaven the air is thinner, this is where the clouds are and stretches to the next level, maybe where the ozone layer is or maybe the stratosphere? We can hear the sonic boom when the space shuttle goes through it. Then above that is the third heaven, which goes on and on forever, trillions and trillions of light years away. God's throne is out there in this third heaven somewhere.

But in the rapture, Christ will leave the third heaven, come in a cloud or down to the second heaven, where He will send His angels to gather His elect from the earth, which is the first heaven or the air just above the earths surface. We will meet Him there, in the air and in the clouds, in the second heaven, and in plain view of the inhabitants of the earth. Don't be surprised if this is where the wedding supper of the Lamb will take place as well. It may seem strange to us now, but at that moment, their bodies will be changed and no longer be bound by the law of gravity. Not that it has to be there, but it's very possible. But no matter where the wedding supper takes place, those in attendance will be in the kingdom of heaven forever more.

Luke 12:36-37

And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

But the kingdom of heaven, this is the promised kingdom that will come at the second coming. It is also in our hearts as we look forward to it by faith. Christ is currently setting up His kingdom, and He has been since He went away after His resurrection, as He told His disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for them in His Father's house. He will literally return to rule and reign with His saints on this earth for 1000 years and then the resurrection of the dead will take place, when the wicked unbelievers are judged at the great white throne, but of His kingdom there will be no end.

And finally, we still disagree over the abomination of desolation that Christ mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. We agree that there are more than one abominations, and more than one desolations of Jerusalem (Daniel 9). However, the abomination of desolation He mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is (singular, not plural), it is in Daniel 12, and it takes place at the time of the end of this age, not long before His second coming.

[ENOCH2010]

To be totally honest,I think the rapture and the second coming are the same event

Very good. You get the golden prize. Now for a bonus, when do they occur?* And just to be technical, they are part of the same event. The rapture is the changing of live believers to resurrected bodies.

*Hint: John 6 and John 12.

Most people would call me post-trib I guess,because I believe the saved will be protected here on this earth during most of the end time events, not whisked away to some mystical place called heaven.