Preterism versus Futurism

[Bold Believer]

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

.... Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

OK

And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21

And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20

Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem:

First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building!

So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates!

Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone!

Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!"

Dear One

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Make No Mistake

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7

"World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing!

This Old Earth And The Cosmos Set In Place Around It

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

Will All Be Gone

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Puff ! ! !

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well:

Psalm 78:68-69

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

KJV

Psalm 89:35-37

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

Psalm 104:1-5

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

KJV

Psalm 115:15-16

15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth.

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

KJV

Psalm 119:89-90

89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

KJV

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

Isaiah 65:17-18

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

KJV

Isaiah 66:22

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

KJV

While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth.

And Make No Mistake Beloved

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isaiah 66:22

All Will Be A New Creation And All Of The Remnant Of Israel Will Be Restored

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct.

You bring out a good point Retro. The Greek of Revelation 21 may also be translated "I saw a RENEWED heaven and a RENEWED earth." The fire which destroys the ge' (planet Earth) is concerned with the things that man has done (works and the consequences of those works). Likewise, the heaven (ouranos) is burned up. This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live. All the water will be dried up, killing all the fish/sea creatures. I personally believe that it will be a RESTORATION. It's interesting to note that Acts 3:21 tells us that Jesus must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. The remaining portion of the planet will be transformed to an Edenic state and Believers from New Jerusalem will repopulate it and live on it.

[Bold Believer]

Preterism is impossible to defend. No case can be made that Christ set up a 1,000 year kingdom, or that Armageddon has happened, or that the antichrist rules the earth for 7 years, or that all of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements have occurred. Obviously the futurist position is correct, although there is understandably disagreement as to which futurist position is correct, be it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or amillenial, premillenial, or postmillenial.

Regardless which position you hold, there are several things that remain true.

The temple has to be rebuilt

The antichrist must desicrate it

At least half of the world will die in the 7 year tribulation

Christ will come after the battle of Armageddon to set up a 1,000 year period of peace on the earth.

After that period, Satan, the false prophet, and the beast are judged.

Then the eternal state begins, where sin will NEVER again exist and all children of God will live in perfect peace and unity forever

1. The temple IS being rebuilt. 1Pe 2:4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Also see I Cor 3:16,17 and I Cor 6:19. WE are the final temple.

2. The 'antichrist' is NOT the one who desecrates the temple. It is the abomination which makes desolate. That would be the pagan Roman army. They were the desecrators and they made the temple desolate, just as Jesus said they would. Their very PRESENCE in the temple desecrated it; Gentiles were not permitted there. Why is it that believers conveniently disregard the Luke 21 passage while exalting Mt 24 and Mark 13 WHICH ARE ACCOUNTS OF THE SAME INCIDENT?

3. There are no exact figures given as to how many died during the tribulation. Josephus does say that people were crucified trying to escape the city at about 500 per day. He further describes the things that went on inside the city as being particularly heinous and bloody during the siege. The Jews were inflicting that upon themselves. When the Romans broke in, they completed the carnage and laid waste to the temple.

4. Exactly where does the Scripture say that Christ reigns in PEACE for 1000 years? It SAYS that He rules with a ROD OF IRON. That is not peace. It's enforced rule. Isaiah speaks of God's people (calling them the House of the LORD) being pre-eminent, being the chief of the mountains, with the Gentiles streaming to it. And this HAS happened. Christianity WAS once the pre-dominant religion over all the others. People came to the Church and learned of Christ. That's why there ARE so many Believers in the world today.

5. If you read Rev 19, the devil, the beast and the false prophet WERE judged. Imperial Rome and Nero its wicked leader and the false prophet (the apostate leadership of the Jews) are each dealt with. Satan is imprisoned, the others are cast into Gehenna, never to rise again. Has Imperial Rome ever been rebuilt? NO. And it never wil be. Likewise, the Sanhedrin which led the Jews away from Christ will NEVER rise again.

Again, over-literalization raises its head. Insisting on an exact literalism destroys the meaning of the passages.

[taylor30]

Preterism is impossible to defend. No case can be made that Christ set up a 1,000 year kingdom, or that Armageddon has happened, or that the antichrist rules the earth for 7 years, or that all of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements have occurred. Obviously the futurist position is correct, although there is understandably disagreement as to which futurist position is correct, be it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or amillenial, premillenial, or postmillenial.

Regardless which position you hold, there are several things that remain true.

The temple has to be rebuilt

The antichrist must desicrate it

At least half of the world will die in the 7 year tribulation

Christ will come after the battle of Armageddon to set up a 1,000 year period of peace on the earth.

After that period, Satan, the false prophet, and the beast are judged.

Then the eternal state begins, where sin will NEVER again exist and all children of God will live in perfect peace and unity forever

1. The temple IS being rebuilt. 1Pe 2:4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Also see I Cor 3:16,17 and I Cor 6:19. WE are the final temple.

2. The 'antichrist' is NOT the one who desecrates the temple. It is the abomination which makes desolate. That would be the pagan Roman army. They were the desecrators and they made the temple desolate, just as Jesus said they would. Their very PRESENCE in the temple desecrated it; Gentiles were not permitted there. Why is it that believers conveniently disregard the Luke 21 passage while exalting Mt 24 and Mark 13 WHICH ARE ACCOUNTS OF THE SAME INCIDENT?

3. There are no exact figures given as to how many died during the tribulation. Josephus does say that people were crucified trying to escape the city at about 500 per day. He further describes the things that went on inside the city add being particularly heinous and bloody during the siege. The Jews were inflicting that upon themselves. When the Romans broke in, they completed the carnage and laid waste to the temple.

4. Exactly where does the Scripture say that Christ reigns in PEACE for 1000 years? It SAYS that He rules with a ROD OF IRON. That is not peace. It's enforced rule. Isaiah speaks of God's people (calling them the House of the LORD) being pre-eminent, being the chief of the mountains, with the Gentiles streaming to it. And this HAS happened. Christianity WAS once the pre-dominant religion over all the others. People came to the Church and learned of Christ. That's why there ARE so many Believers in the world today.

5. If you read Rev 19, the devil, the beast and the false prophet WERE judged. Imperial Rome and Nero its wicked leader and the false prophet (the apostate leadership of the Jews) are each dealt with. Satan is imprisoned, the others are cast into Gehenna, never to rise again. Has Imperial Rome ever been rebuilt? NO. And it never wil be. Likewise, the Sanhedrin which led the Jews away from Christ will NEVER rise again.

Again, over-literalization raises its head. Insisting on an exact literalism destroys the meaning of the passages.

First off, I will admit I am a literalist. I think the Bible was intended to be read that way. Too many false teachings have come out if trying to symbolize everything. If you symbolize scripture, you can make it say whatever you want. So yes, I interpret scripture as it was written, just as I do the newspaper or any non-fiction book. Now I shall address what you said

#1. You symbolize the temple, but Revelation is very clear that there WILL be a literally rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in the tribulation. This is yet future.

#2. The abomination which makes desolation cannot be an army. The abomination stands in the temple and declares himself to be God, makes war with all the saints, and is given supernatural power to rule the world unchallenged. He also sets up an idol and makes the world worship it. This is an individual, and since no such individual has ever done ALL these things, it is still yet future to happen.

#3. In Revelation 6:8 & 9:15, a total of half the world's population is killed. The Romans never came close to wiping out half the world, so this cannot refer to them. Such widespread death has never happened, so this also is future.

#4. Look at Isaiah 9:6-7,Daniel 7:22, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 20:4. The saints reign WITH Christ, and that reign will NEVER end. This clearly has never yet happened, so it also is future.

#5. The beast, Satan, and false prophet cannot refer to Rome or anything in that time period. Those 3 in Revelation are VERY focused on the Jews and saints. There also is a series of judgements that fall, which as of yet, have NEVER happened. There also are 2 witnesses that preach for 42 months during the rule of the 3. That has never happened yet either. Nor has their resurrection which would be seen by all their enemies. NOTHING in Revelation from chapter 6 on has ever happened. It is yet future, waiting fulfillment.

There is great danger in symbolizing scriptures that are clearly meant to be taken literally.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

.... Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

OK

And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21

And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20

Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem:

First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building!

So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates!

Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone!

Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!"

Dear One

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Make No Mistake

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7

"World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing!

This Old Earth And The Cosmos Set In Place Around It

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

Will All Be Gone

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Puff ! ! !

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well:

Psalm 78:68-69

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

KJV

Psalm 89:35-37

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

Psalm 104:1-5

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

KJV

Psalm 115:15-16

15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth.

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

KJV

Psalm 119:89-90

89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

KJV

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

Isaiah 65:17-18

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

KJV

Isaiah 66:22

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

KJV

While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth.

And Make No Mistake Beloved

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isaiah 66:22

All Will Be A New Creation And All Of The Remnant Of Israel Will Be Restored

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct.

You bring out a good point Retro. The Greek of Revelation 21 may also be translated "I saw a RENEWED heaven and a RENEWED earth." The fire which destroys the ge' (planet Earth) is concerned with the things that man has done (works and the consequences of those works). Likewise, the heaven (ouranos) is burned up. This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live. All the water will be dried up, killing all the fish/sea creatures. I personally believe that it will be a RESTORATION. It's interesting to note that Acts 3:21 tells us that Jesus must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. The remaining portion of the planet will be transformed to an Edenic state and Believers from New Jerusalem will repopulate it and live on it.

Thank you for your gracious words.

I would just like to remind you of the First Law of Thermodynamics: Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed; they are merely changed from one form to another. Matter and energy are conserved! All of the matter will still be present after the fire, just mixed into different molecular configurations and combinations. God will probably have little Creation (Hebrew: bara' = "to make from nothing") to do; He will just reform (Hebrew: asah = "to make from existing substance") everything from what is already there, as He did after the Flood.

For instance, the oxygen may be "used up," however, it is still present in the forms of oxidized matter, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapor. Nothing is ever truly lost in a chemical reaction: For instance, in the "burning" of simple sugar, C₆H₁₂O₆ + 6O₂ --> 6CO₂ + 6 H₂O, on both sides of the "yields" symbol (-->), there are 6 atoms of carbon, 12 atoms of hydrogen, and 18 atoms of oxygen. Only the energy of enthalpy has changed, losing energy in the form of lost heat. You probably already knew this, but I mention it so others who are reading along won't be mislead by your statement "This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live."

Nothing is impossible with God.

[Bold Believer]

Preterism is impossible to defend. No case can be made that Christ set up a 1,000 year kingdom, or that Armageddon has happened, or that the antichrist rules the earth for 7 years, or that all of the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements have occurred. Obviously the futurist position is correct, although there is understandably disagreement as to which futurist position is correct, be it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or amillenial, premillenial, or postmillenial.

Regardless which position you hold, there are several things that remain true.

The temple has to be rebuilt

The antichrist must desicrate it

At least half of the world will die in the 7 year tribulation

Christ will come after the battle of Armageddon to set up a 1,000 year period of peace on the earth.

After that period, Satan, the false prophet, and the beast are judged.

Then the eternal state begins, where sin will NEVER again exist and all children of God will live in perfect peace and unity forever

1. The temple IS being rebuilt. 1Pe 2:4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Also see I Cor 3:16,17 and I Cor 6:19. WE are the final temple.

2. The 'antichrist' is NOT the one who desecrates the temple. It is the abomination which makes desolate. That would be the pagan Roman army. They were the desecrators and they made the temple desolate, just as Jesus said they would. Their very PRESENCE in the temple desecrated it; Gentiles were not permitted there. Why is it that believers conveniently disregard the Luke 21 passage while exalting Mt 24 and Mark 13 WHICH ARE ACCOUNTS OF THE SAME INCIDENT?

3. There are no exact figures given as to how many died during the tribulation. Josephus does say that people were crucified trying to escape the city at about 500 per day. He further describes the things that went on inside the city add being particularly heinous and bloody during the siege. The Jews were inflicting that upon themselves. When the Romans broke in, they completed the carnage and laid waste to the temple.

4. Exactly where does the Scripture say that Christ reigns in PEACE for 1000 years? It SAYS that He rules with a ROD OF IRON. That is not peace. It's enforced rule. Isaiah speaks of God's people (calling them the House of the LORD) being pre-eminent, being the chief of the mountains, with the Gentiles streaming to it. And this HAS happened. Christianity WAS once the pre-dominant religion over all the others. People came to the Church and learned of Christ. That's why there ARE so many Believers in the world today.

5. If you read Rev 19, the devil, the beast and the false prophet WERE judged. Imperial Rome and Nero its wicked leader and the false prophet (the apostate leadership of the Jews) are each dealt with. Satan is imprisoned, the others are cast into Gehenna, never to rise again. Has Imperial Rome ever been rebuilt? NO. And it never wil be. Likewise, the Sanhedrin which led the Jews away from Christ will NEVER rise again.

Again, over-literalization raises its head. Insisting on an exact literalism destroys the meaning of the passages.

First off, I will admit I am a literalist. I think the Bible was intended to be read that way. Too many false teachings have come out if trying to symbolize everything. If you symbolize scripture, you can make it say whatever you want. So yes, I interpret scripture as it was written, just as I do the newspaper or any non-fiction book. Now I shall address what you said

#1. You symbolize the temple, but Revelation is very clear that there WILL be a literally rebuilt temple in Jerusalem in the tribulation. This is yet future.

#2. The abomination which makes desolation cannot be an army. The abomination stands in the temple and declares himself to be God, makes war with all the saints, and is given supernatural power to rule the world unchallenged. He also sets up an idol and makes the world worship it. This is an individual, and since no such individual has ever done ALL these things, it is still yet future to happen.

#3. In Revelation 6:8 & 9:15, a total of half the world's population is killed. The Romans never came close to wiping out half the world, so this cannot refer to them. Such widespread death has never happened, so this also is future.

#4. Look at Isaiah 9:6-7,Daniel 7:22, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 20:4. The saints reign WITH Christ, and that reign will NEVER end. This clearly has never yet happened, so it also is future.

#5. The beast, Satan, and false prophet cannot refer to Rome or anything in that time period. Those 3 in Revelation are VERY focused on the Jews and saints. There also is a series of judgements that fall, which as of yet, have NEVER happened. There also are 2 witnesses that preach for 42 months during the rule of the 3. That has never happened yet either. Nor has their resurrection which would be seen by all their enemies. NOTHING in Revelation from chapter 6 on has ever happened. It is yet future, waiting fulfillment.

There is great danger in symbolizing scriptures that are clearly meant to be taken literally.

1. I am not symbolizing anything concerning the temple. I am simply stating what Scripture says about US (Believers) being the temple. The temple that was going to be rebuilt was the first temple. The second temple was the one in Jesus' time. The final temple is Believers.

2. Then I guess Jesus lied when he said:

Luk 21:20-22 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.

It is very clear from this passage that it will be the armies which CAUSE the desolation. Once the city is surrounded, it will be obvious that the desolation is near. The Romans weren't there to play tiddly-winks, they were there to carry out the judgment which God had decreed upon the city for the sins of rebellious Israel (see Daniel 9, early verses). This is precisely what he had been warning the Israeli leadership about over and over as far back as Mt 22 and 23.

3. Rev 6:8 says 1/4th, not half. Also, the word ge' means land or country as well as the whole planet. When it's used here, it's referring to the Land of Israel. Revelation is speaking of the Land of Israel. God is judging Israel. Remember, these are the Days of Vengeance. Who is God angry with? The apostate Jews who rejected his Messiahship. Rev 9:15 says 1/3. That's 1/3 of the remainder after 1/4 has been destroyed. This would have been roughly 56% of the population destroyed by: The factions within the city and the Roman army outside. Remember, much of what was going on was a siege. The Romans sat outside the city with their siege machines hurling huge stones into the city and preventing the people inside from getting out. This caused them to turn on each other. There were a considerable number of factions inside the city which hated each other and used the situation to wage vicious sectarian warfare. That was before the Romans broke through and carried out their assault and destruction of the temple.

4. The tribulation was 42 months, not seven years. 1260 days on a 30 day calendar. 66 AD when the war began, to 70 AD. Josephus I believe gives precise dates in his book and they are trustworthy because he was an eyewitness to the events.

5. Satan is the dragon. The beast is Rome, personified by Nero. The false prophet is the Sanhedrin, the leadership of the Jews which had been giving false teaching of the Torah. The two witnesses prophesied 1260 days, but it was not the SAME 1260 days of the tribulation. The Neronic persecution (in which we lost Paul) was also 1260 days. It fulfilled Daniel's prophesy that the little horn would make war on the saints and overcome them. The Beast's war against the saints and the tribulation of Israel (time of jacob's trouble) had a slight overlap. The persecution died out in 66 AD when Nero killed himself, but that is also the same time as the tribulation began. Remember John mentioned in the early part of the book that he was 'in tribulation' with those to whom he was writing (Rev 1:9). Yes, Rome and Nero were focused on the Jews and saints, but not those of OUR time. Those of JOHN's time. Revelation is for the saints of John's time to encourage them during the Neronic persecution and assure them that the ones who were troubling them (in this case, the Romans and their Jewish cohorts) would be dealt with by God.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

.... Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

OK

And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21

And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20

Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem:

First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building!

So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates!

Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone!

Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!"

Dear One

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Make No Mistake

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7

"World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing!

This Old Earth And The Cosmos Set In Place Around It

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

Will All Be Gone

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Puff ! ! !

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well:

Psalm 78:68-69

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

KJV

Psalm 89:35-37

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

Psalm 104:1-5

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

KJV

Psalm 115:15-16

15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth.

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

KJV

Psalm 119:89-90

89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

KJV

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

Isaiah 65:17-18

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

KJV

Isaiah 66:22

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

KJV

While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth.

And Make No Mistake Beloved

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isaiah 66:22

All Will Be A New Creation And All Of The Remnant Of Israel Will Be Restored

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct.

You bring out a good point Retro. The Greek of Revelation 21 may also be translated "I saw a RENEWED heaven and a RENEWED earth." The fire which destroys the ge' (planet Earth) is concerned with the things that man has done (works and the consequences of those works). Likewise, the heaven (ouranos) is burned up. This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live. All the water will be dried up, killing all the fish/sea creatures. I personally believe that it will be a RESTORATION. It's interesting to note that Acts 3:21 tells us that Jesus must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. The remaining portion of the planet will be transformed to an Edenic state and Believers from New Jerusalem will repopulate it and live on it.

Thank you for your gracious words.

I would just like to remind you of the First Law of Thermodynamics: Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed; they are merely changed from one form to another. Matter and energy are conserved! All of the matter will still be present after the fire, just mixed into different molecular configurations and combinations. God will probably have little Creation (Hebrew: bara' = "to make from nothing") to do; He will just reform (Hebrew: asah = "to make from existing substance") everything from what is already there, as He did after the Flood.

For instance, the oxygen may be "used up," however, it is still present in the forms of oxidized matter, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapor. Nothing is ever truly lost in a chemical reaction: For instance, in the "burning" of simple sugar, C₆H₁₂O₆ + 6O₂ --> 6CO₂ + 6 H₂O, on both sides of the "yields" symbol (-->), there are 6 atoms of carbon, 12 atoms of hydrogen, and 18 atoms of oxygen. Only the energy of enthalpy has changed, losing energy in the form of lost heat. You probably already knew this, but I mention it so others who are reading along won't be mislead by your statement "This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live."

Nothing is impossible with God.

[Guest]

.... I would just like to remind you of the First Law of Thermodynamics: Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed; they are merely changed from one form to another. Matter and energy are conserved! All of the matter will still be present after the fire, just mixed into different molecular configurations and combinations. God will probably have little Creation (Hebrew: bara' = "to make from nothing") to do; He will just reform (Hebrew: asah = "to make from existing substance") everything from what is already there, as He did after the Flood.... Nothing is impossible with God....

First Fact

Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160

Had Nothing To Do With Reform

In the beginning God created.... Genesis 1:1(a)

Just As It Will Have Nothing To Do With The New Creation

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Dear One Can You See....

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:1-3

[JohnD]

John 14:2-4

2In My Father's house there are many dwelling places (homes). If it were not so, I would have told you; for I am going away to prepare a place for you.

3And when (if) I go and make ready a place for you, I will come back again and will take you to Myself, that where I am you may be also.

4And [to the place] where I am going, you know the way.

A very good point. Not to be quarrelsome with brother Roy... but Ephesians 4:8-10 shows the initials pre-resurrected saints (in Avraham's bosom) as the disembodied human residents of heaven. And in Luke 23:43 Yeshua speaking to the first to die in faith going directly to heaven (paradise which is only used three times in scripture and all refer to the place where God is enthroned). 2 Corinthians 5:8 says when believers are absent from the body we are with the Lord whop is the lone resurrected human being / God the Word in heaven (Acts 2:33 / Hebrews 1:3 / 10:12).

Jesus is not the lone human with a body in heaven, however. Both Enoch and Elijah were translated bodily to glory.

Enoch and Elijah were translated to Abraham's Bosom.

John 3:13 (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What I think is being missed here is when humanity is resurrected, first comes the deliverance of Israel then the judgement of the lost and then old heavens and old earth are done away with replaced by the new heave and new earth (or as some wild eyed kooks like me believe... a new heaven-earth will result). So, brother Roy is correct in that we are not going to be in the present heaven in a resurrected form, but if we die before the end we will be in a disembodied state that is in our spirit.

The new earth and the new firmament will be a complete renewal by the hand of God in the end. We who are Christ's will be resurrected or changed to our glorified state to reign and rule with Christ on Earth in His millennial kingdom, and will remain so forever, through the Great White Throne judgment of the world, ruling and reigning in the universe.

Proof texts please.

[JohnD]

Regarding the Temple...

God intended the Temple to be the body of believers all along.

David and Solomon rammed the Jewish Temple down everyone's throats and God condescended to deal with Israel on that basis until the Messiah came just as he did the monarchy (read 1 Samuel 8).

2 Samuel 7:12-13 (KJV)

12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Which David took to mean Solomon and he put Solomon up to completing the Temple he started preparations for. But the Lord had another meaning for that prophecy:

Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV)

12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

None other than the Messiah was the one whom God intended to build the Temple. Further,

Hebrews 8:5 (KJV)

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Neither David or Solomon had the pattern Moses had to build the tabernacle God commissioned him to build.

Matthew 16:18 (KJV)

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1 Peter 2:3-9 (KJV)

3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,

5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV)

16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

But there is no doubt a temple was built without God's commission by Solomon (the one whom 666 points to) and that there will be a Temple standing in the end time (which will not be destroyed btw, but cleansed and used in the millennium).

[Bold Believer]

Shalom, Bold Believer.

Shalom, FresnoJoe.

.... Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house!

So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

OK

And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21

And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20

Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem:

First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building!

So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates!

Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone!

Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!"

Dear One

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:15-17

Make No Mistake

For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2 Peter 3:5-7

"World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing!

This Old Earth And The Cosmos Set In Place Around It

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

Will All Be Gone

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Revelation 21:5

Puff ! ! !

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. Revelation 20:11

Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well:

Psalm 78:68-69

68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.

69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever.

KJV

Psalm 89:35-37

35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.

36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.

37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

KJV

Psalm 104:1-5

1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.

2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.

KJV

Psalm 115:15-16

15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth.

16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

KJV

Psalm 119:89-90

89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven.

90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth.

KJV

Proverbs 30:4

4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

KJV

Ecclesiastes 1:4

4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

KJV

Isaiah 65:17-18

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

KJV

Isaiah 66:22

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

KJV

While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth.

And Make No Mistake Beloved

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isaiah 66:22

All Will Be A New Creation And All Of The Remnant Of Israel Will Be Restored

But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. Isaiah 45:17

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Romans 11:26

The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct.

You bring out a good point Retro. The Greek of Revelation 21 may also be translated "I saw a RENEWED heaven and a RENEWED earth." The fire which destroys the ge' (planet Earth) is concerned with the things that man has done (works and the consequences of those works). Likewise, the heaven (ouranos) is burned up. This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live. All the water will be dried up, killing all the fish/sea creatures. I personally believe that it will be a RESTORATION. It's interesting to note that Acts 3:21 tells us that Jesus must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. The remaining portion of the planet will be transformed to an Edenic state and Believers from New Jerusalem will repopulate it and live on it.

Thank you for your gracious words.

I would just like to remind you of the First Law of Thermodynamics: Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed; they are merely changed from one form to another. Matter and energy are conserved! All of the matter will still be present after the fire, just mixed into different molecular configurations and combinations. God will probably have little Creation (Hebrew: bara' = "to make from nothing") to do; He will just reform (Hebrew: asah = "to make from existing substance") everything from what is already there, as He did after the Flood.

For instance, the oxygen may be "used up," however, it is still present in the forms of oxidized matter, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapor. Nothing is ever truly lost in a chemical reaction: For instance, in the "burning" of simple sugar, C₆H₁₂O₆ + 6O₂ --> 6CO₂ + 6 H₂O, on both sides of the "yields" symbol (-->), there are 6 atoms of carbon, 12 atoms of hydrogen, and 18 atoms of oxygen. Only the energy of enthalpy has changed, losing energy in the form of lost heat. You probably already knew this, but I mention it so others who are reading along won't be mislead by your statement "This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live."

Nothing is impossible with God.

No, actually, I didn't know that. I'm not as well versed in science as I should be. It never really interested me in school. When the Master comes back, the oxygen will certainly be rendered unusable by living beings. It will not be breathable again until he remakes the heavens and earth.

Being well versed in science, what is your take on Gehenna? Would the fire there not render oxygen unusable? And would it not consume the bodies cast into it? My understanding in that regard is that the outer body is consumed, leaving only the spirit and soul to be tormented for eternity. You might consider doing a topic on the matter from the scientific and spiritual POV.

A good catch on bara vs asah. The distinction is very important. Another one is anastasis vs anazoe in Revelation 20. BIG difference there.