Those days shall be shortened

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, Bible2.

Jasher said in post #28:

Are you saying that the Old Covenant is still running parallel to the New? Futurism seems to be saying this when they talk about one plan of God for the Church and a different one for the Jews. What would we call this? parallelism? Can anyone define this in a simple way that I can understand?

What you are about to say here all SOUNDS good, but it is the language of the Replacement Theology that was so carefully crafted down through the centuries, even to the English versions of the Bible we have.

On the Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law itself was disannulled (Hebrews 7:18-19), abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21-5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9b) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9b), of the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2b, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21-5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing unto others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10), consisting of the commandments given by Jesus Christ himself in the New Testament (John 14:15), such as those commandments he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19-7:29) and in the writings of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37, cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:2). These New Covenant commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2-5:26).

Believers can thank God that the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was just a temporary "schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:24-25), just a temporary "shadow" (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after he'd set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and long before he brought that promise to fulfillment in the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), whereas the New Covenant has replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices (e.g. Leviticus 23:19), whereas the New Covenant has replaced those animal sacrifices with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:22-25), so that those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:22-31).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law itself, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), the ministration of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:9a), which has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11a), which has been abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b), yet it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:8,6) and the ministration of righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:9b), which remaineth (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and behold Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, cf. Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

And yet a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism is still able to deceive even some believers into thinking that they still must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2-5:26). But this is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), for if any believers are keeping the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then they've fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Jesus shows in the Sermon on the Mount how his New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade murder (Matthew 5:21, Exodus 20:13), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ forbids even calling people names (Matthew 5:22). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law forbade adultery (Matthew 5:27, Exodus 20:14), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ forbids even looking at another woman with lust (Matthew 5:28). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law permitted divorce and remarriage (Matthew 5:31, Deuteronomy 24:1-2), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ forbids it (Matthew 5:32, Mark 10:11-12, Luke 16:18), except for a single exemption granted only to husbands who discover that their newlywed wife isn't a virgin, but had committed fornication (Matthew 19:9).

Jesus also shows in the Sermon on the Mount that while his New Covenant, Christian law is stricter than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, at the same time it's also more merciful than the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. For the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required taking an eye for an eye (Matthew 5:38, Deuteronomy 19:21), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ requires turning the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required hatred for one's enemies (Matthew 5:43b, cf. Deuteronomy 23:6), whereas the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ requires love for one's enemies (Matthew 5:44).

Also, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), required, for example, that adulterers be put to death (Leviticus 20:10), whereas Jesus showed mercy to the woman caught in adultery (John 8:4-11). And, for another example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required that anyone who does any work on the sabbath is to be put to death (Exodus 31:14, Numbers 15:32-36), whereas Jesus allowed his disciples to work on the sabbath and said they were guiltless (Matthew 12:1-8), just as Jesus himself worked on the sabbath (John 5:17-18).

So in obeying the New Covenant commandments of Jesus Christ (Matthew 5:19-7:29, John 14:15, 1 Corinthians 14:37), believers, both Jews and Gentiles, are both more merciful and loving, and they also exceed in righteousness those who try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Hebrews 7:18-19, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18).

I'm taking the time to answer all of this, more for a book I'm writing than for answering here, but IF there is time in the future to post it, I will. Suffice it to put a "bug in your ear" for now, that is, just a couple of little tid-bits to get you to thinking and hopefully get you on the right track. First, don't confuse the "covenant" with the "Law." The two are NOT synonymous, and the writer of the book to the Hebrews was meticulous in his word choices.

Second, understand that there are more than just one or even two covenants. A covenant is an agreement, a contract! God made several covenants with people down through the ages. Of course, a main covenant was the agreement He made with the children of Isra'el at Mt. Sinai that they would KEEP the Law and He would be their God, providing for them, protecting them, and fighting for them.

Third, understand that there are many commandments within the Law given by Moishe (Moses) from God. There are far more than just 10 Commandments; there are 613 of them! The ONE commandment that the author of Hebrews was talking about was that commandment that said that the children of Isra'el should give their tithes to God through Leviy! THAT'S the whole point of the chapter! THAT is the commandment that was "disannulled," not the whole Law! To the contrary, Paul instructs us in the book of Romans:

Romans 7:7-16

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment (which commandment? "Thou shalt not covet"), wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once (i.e., while an innocent child): but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it (the law) is good.

KJV

I truly hope this helps you, and I'll be praying for your understanding to grow.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Cobalt1959.

...

I feel the need to point out that you cannot dismiss dispensationalism on the one hand as having outlived it's usefullness and then on the other hand say that the Old Covenant and New Covenant are still co-existant. If that is true, which I believe as well, then Dispensationalism still exists as well. Dispensationalism is the assertion that God deals with humanity differently in different ages. Obviously, God does not deal with humanity the same way during what we now call the Age of Grace as He did while Israel was under Mosaic law, or pre-Mosaic Law, or pre-flood. Dispensations exist. We should not have, and in fact, have not "grown beyond it" since there are still 2 distinct earthly dispensations left.

But, God does NOT deal "with humanity differently in different ages!" I'll say it again: We should understand that in EVERY AGE, God has ALWAYS "saved" (or rather, justified) people by His grace, through faith, and by blood! It is technically only through the blood that the Messiah Yeshua` shed for us on the Roman execution stake known as the "cross" where He was impaled, but the blood of animals looked forward through time to that Sacrifice, whereas now we look backward through time to the actual Sacrifice of the Son of God. However, as the author of the book to the Hebrews states:

Hebrews 10:1-14

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

KJV

Don't you remember what David said?

Psalm 130

1 Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O Lord.

2 Lord, hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.

3 If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?

4 But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.

5 I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.

6 My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.

7 Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption.

8 And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

KJV

Nothing has changed in how God justifies a person! There is no different way of dealing with people!

[Bible2]

Retrobyter said in post #34:

What you are about to say here all SOUNDS good, but it is the language of the Replacement Theology that was so carefully crafted down through the centuries, even to the English versions of the Bible we have.

What's your definition of "Replacement Theology"? Is it the idea that the church replaces Israel?

If so, the church doesn't replace Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Retrobyter said in post #34:

First, don't confuse the "covenant" with the "Law."

Note that the words of the Mosaic commandments were the words of the Old Covenant (Exodus 34:28b, Leviticus 26:15b, Deuteronomy 4:13), so that believers placing themselves under the letter of the Mosaic law is placing themselves back under the Old Covenant (Galatians 4:21-5:8).

Also, note that what Paul showed was abolished in 2 Corinthians 3:6-18 was the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law itself, "written and engraven in stones" (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 27:8).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law itself, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death (2 Corinthians 3:7), the ministration of condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:9a), which has been done away (2 Corinthians 3:11a), which has been abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b), yet it's still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), whereas the New Covenant is the ministration of the spirit (2 Corinthians 3:8,6) and the ministration of righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:9b), which remaineth (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits believers to remove the veil and behold Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, cf. Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

And yet a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism is still able to deceive even some believers into thinking that they still must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2-5:26). But this is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9), for if any believers are keeping the letter of any part of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, thinking that they must do so in order to be saved, or in order to become perfect, then they've fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Retrobyter said in post #34:

The ONE commandment that the author of Hebrews was talking about was that commandment that said that the children of Isra'el should give their tithes to God through Leviy!

Hebrews 7:18-19 means that the letter of the entire Old Covenant Mosaic law was disannulled, just as other NT passages show that it was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21-5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9b) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9b), of the New Covenant law of Jesus Christ (Galatians 6:2b, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

Retrobyter said in post #34:

Romans 7:7-16

Note that it hasn't been said the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law isn't still holy, just, and good (Romans 7:12). What's been said is that all believers, both Jews and Gentles, are nonetheless delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6, 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21-5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing unto others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 7:18-19, Hebrews 10), consisting of the commandments given by Jesus Christ himself in the New Testament (John 14:15), such as those commandments he gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19-7:29) and in the writings of Paul the apostle (1 Corinthians 14:37, cf. 1 Thessalonians 4:2). These New Covenant commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there's no reason why any believer should ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2-5:26).

[rollinTHUNDER]

Shabbat shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

What's not true? I agree that their house was left desolate (Matt.23) in the past (70 A.D.), but this desolation was one of several. It was not the abomination of desolation that He mentions after He departed the multitude and the temple (Matt.24).

I'm in no way discounting what Christ said to the multitudes and His disciples in Matt. 23, and the judgment that fell upon that wicked generation, just as He prophesied. But in Matt. 24, Christ departed from the multitude and left the temple, which is when His disciples questioned Him in private.

Matthew 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Their question is not just about the destruction of the temple. It reaches much farther than the temple's destruction. That is merely the starting point, but you take a very unbalanced view of His answer, tipping the scales in heavy favor 70 AD, while neglecting the future. In fact, I recall you saying in another thread that the only thing future in His answer was the sun, moon and stars. Mark 13 and Luke 21 also mention these things, but Matthew brings much more of the future into view, as Christ does not finish His answer to their question until the end of chapter 25, which is two entire chapters, most of which is about the future (the tribulation, His coming and the end of the world/age), beginning at verse 15.

Matthew 24 contains both past and future events, and so does Daniel 11.

But to say that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes is just ridiculous. In verse 1 of Daniel 12, it says "AT THAT TIME" not just once, but twice, which points back to the same abomination of desolation in Daniel 11. It is not referring to another abomination of desolation, but rather, it shows the time remaining to the end of the age, as you can plainly see the dead wakening from the dust of the earth in verse 2, which is none other that the resurrection of the just.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:11-13

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel 12 is all about the timing.

Do you see the resurrection in Daniel 12?

Do you see Christ sending the angels to gather His elect in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you really believe this abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, which happened before Christ came?

What's not true? That Yeshua` was talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! That's what is not true. He was talking about Dani'el 9:24-27! YES! I believe that the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Dani'el 11 and 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; HOWEVER, what Yeshua` was talking about - Dani'el 9 - was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus! It was fulfilled by the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) - the scribes and P'rushiym (Pharisees) - at the time of Yeshua`s death and resurrection!

Christ was pointing back to what Daniel prophesied would happen in the future, and it would still be off into the future, as it will occur when the dead rise up from the dust of the earth, and when the angels will gather the elect from among the living (rapture), as Paul said the dead will rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up. And speaking of Paul, he also talked about this abomination of desolation and of our being gathered together:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That, my friend, is the (singular) abomination of desolation that Christ and Daniel 11 & 12 were referring to. He did not say, "When you see your house left to you desolate run for the hills......"

The abominations caused the desolation, and the desolation caused an abomination! The rejections of the Messiah caused the Messiah to pronounce them desolate, and the desolation in which He left them led to the Temple being destroyed! Furthermore, the desolation in which He left them is not over, yet! It won't be over until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHWH!" "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAHUWH!" speaking in prayer to God regarding Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Messiah or the Christ, the Son of God! Can you see that this makes sense?

Sure I see the Resurrection in Dani'el 12:2, but I also see the Rescue in 12:1c, and a "time of trouble" in which we still exist in 12:1b! I believe Dan. 12:1a was fulfilled in or before the first century A.D.! Thus, the two "at that time"s are not at the SAME time in human history!

Finally, Dani'el 12:11-13 is separated from verses 1 and 2 by other verses neglected and are neither to be connected to 12:1-2 nor are they in chronological order after 12:1-2! Therefore, Dani'el 12:11-13 are not connected to the Rescue and the Resurrection of 12:1-2 and CAN go back to 11:31, which IS the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

You partial preterists can twist things around and rearrange things all you like, but we will never come to any kind of agreement on these things. I think it would be a waste of time, yours and mine, to continue this discussion.

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shabbat shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

What's not true? I agree that their house was left desolate (Matt.23) in the past (70 A.D.), but this desolation was one of several. It was not the abomination of desolation that He mentions after He departed the multitude and the temple (Matt.24).

I'm in no way discounting what Christ said to the multitudes and His disciples in Matt. 23, and the judgment that fell upon that wicked generation, just as He prophesied. But in Matt. 24, Christ departed from the multitude and left the temple, which is when His disciples questioned Him in private.

Matthew 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Their question is not just about the destruction of the temple. It reaches much farther than the temple's destruction. That is merely the starting point, but you take a very unbalanced view of His answer, tipping the scales in heavy favor 70 AD, while neglecting the future. In fact, I recall you saying in another thread that the only thing future in His answer was the sun, moon and stars. Mark 13 and Luke 21 also mention these things, but Matthew brings much more of the future into view, as Christ does not finish His answer to their question until the end of chapter 25, which is two entire chapters, most of which is about the future (the tribulation, His coming and the end of the world/age), beginning at verse 15.

Matthew 24 contains both past and future events, and so does Daniel 11.

But to say that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes is just ridiculous. In verse 1 of Daniel 12, it says "AT THAT TIME" not just once, but twice, which points back to the same abomination of desolation in Daniel 11. It is not referring to another abomination of desolation, but rather, it shows the time remaining to the end of the age, as you can plainly see the dead wakening from the dust of the earth in verse 2, which is none other that the resurrection of the just.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:11-13

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel 12 is all about the timing.

Do you see the resurrection in Daniel 12?

Do you see Christ sending the angels to gather His elect in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you really believe this abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, which happened before Christ came?

What's not true? That Yeshua` was talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! That's what is not true. He was talking about Dani'el 9:24-27! YES! I believe that the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Dani'el 11 and 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; HOWEVER, what Yeshua` was talking about - Dani'el 9 - was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus! It was fulfilled by the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) - the scribes and P'rushiym (Pharisees) - at the time of Yeshua`s death and resurrection!

Christ was pointing back to what Daniel prophesied would happen in the future, and it would still be off into the future, as it will occur when the dead rise up from the dust of the earth, and when the angels will gather the elect from among the living (rapture), as Paul said the dead will rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up. And speaking of Paul, he also talked about this abomination of desolation and of our being gathered together:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That, my friend, is the (singular) abomination of desolation that Christ and Daniel 11 & 12 were referring to. He did not say, "When you see your house left to you desolate run for the hills......"

The abominations caused the desolation, and the desolation caused an abomination! The rejections of the Messiah caused the Messiah to pronounce them desolate, and the desolation in which He left them led to the Temple being destroyed! Furthermore, the desolation in which He left them is not over, yet! It won't be over until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHWH!" "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAHUWH!" speaking in prayer to God regarding Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Messiah or the Christ, the Son of God! Can you see that this makes sense?

Sure I see the Resurrection in Dani'el 12:2, but I also see the Rescue in 12:1c, and a "time of trouble" in which we still exist in 12:1b! I believe Dan. 12:1a was fulfilled in or before the first century A.D.! Thus, the two "at that time"s are not at the SAME time in human history!

Finally, Dani'el 12:11-13 is separated from verses 1 and 2 by other verses neglected and are neither to be connected to 12:1-2 nor are they in chronological order after 12:1-2! Therefore, Dani'el 12:11-13 are not connected to the Rescue and the Resurrection of 12:1-2 and CAN go back to 11:31, which IS the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

You partial preterists can twist things around and rearrange things all you like, but we will never come to any kind of agreement on these things. I think it would be a waste of time, yours and mine, to continue this discussion.

I'm working on a response, brother. I didn't want you to think you were getting away with the last word, after all! By the way, if you can't answer an argument, you resort to labeling and attacking the person?! Isn't that called an "ad hominem" argument? You DO realize that such an argument is a logical fallacy, right?

[rollinTHUNDER]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shabbat shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

What's not true? I agree that their house was left desolate (Matt.23) in the past (70 A.D.), but this desolation was one of several. It was not the abomination of desolation that He mentions after He departed the multitude and the temple (Matt.24).

I'm in no way discounting what Christ said to the multitudes and His disciples in Matt. 23, and the judgment that fell upon that wicked generation, just as He prophesied. But in Matt. 24, Christ departed from the multitude and left the temple, which is when His disciples questioned Him in private.

Matthew 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Their question is not just about the destruction of the temple. It reaches much farther than the temple's destruction. That is merely the starting point, but you take a very unbalanced view of His answer, tipping the scales in heavy favor 70 AD, while neglecting the future. In fact, I recall you saying in another thread that the only thing future in His answer was the sun, moon and stars. Mark 13 and Luke 21 also mention these things, but Matthew brings much more of the future into view, as Christ does not finish His answer to their question until the end of chapter 25, which is two entire chapters, most of which is about the future (the tribulation, His coming and the end of the world/age), beginning at verse 15.

Matthew 24 contains both past and future events, and so does Daniel 11.

But to say that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes is just ridiculous. In verse 1 of Daniel 12, it says "AT THAT TIME" not just once, but twice, which points back to the same abomination of desolation in Daniel 11. It is not referring to another abomination of desolation, but rather, it shows the time remaining to the end of the age, as you can plainly see the dead wakening from the dust of the earth in verse 2, which is none other that the resurrection of the just.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:11-13

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel 12 is all about the timing.

Do you see the resurrection in Daniel 12?

Do you see Christ sending the angels to gather His elect in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you really believe this abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, which happened before Christ came?

What's not true? That Yeshua` was talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! That's what is not true. He was talking about Dani'el 9:24-27! YES! I believe that the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Dani'el 11 and 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; HOWEVER, what Yeshua` was talking about - Dani'el 9 - was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus! It was fulfilled by the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) - the scribes and P'rushiym (Pharisees) - at the time of Yeshua`s death and resurrection!

Christ was pointing back to what Daniel prophesied would happen in the future, and it would still be off into the future, as it will occur when the dead rise up from the dust of the earth, and when the angels will gather the elect from among the living (rapture), as Paul said the dead will rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up. And speaking of Paul, he also talked about this abomination of desolation and of our being gathered together:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That, my friend, is the (singular) abomination of desolation that Christ and Daniel 11 & 12 were referring to. He did not say, "When you see your house left to you desolate run for the hills......"

The abominations caused the desolation, and the desolation caused an abomination! The rejections of the Messiah caused the Messiah to pronounce them desolate, and the desolation in which He left them led to the Temple being destroyed! Furthermore, the desolation in which He left them is not over, yet! It won't be over until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHWH!" "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAHUWH!" speaking in prayer to God regarding Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Messiah or the Christ, the Son of God! Can you see that this makes sense?

Sure I see the Resurrection in Dani'el 12:2, but I also see the Rescue in 12:1c, and a "time of trouble" in which we still exist in 12:1b! I believe Dan. 12:1a was fulfilled in or before the first century A.D.! Thus, the two "at that time"s are not at the SAME time in human history!

Finally, Dani'el 12:11-13 is separated from verses 1 and 2 by other verses neglected and are neither to be connected to 12:1-2 nor are they in chronological order after 12:1-2! Therefore, Dani'el 12:11-13 are not connected to the Rescue and the Resurrection of 12:1-2 and CAN go back to 11:31, which IS the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

You partial preterists can twist things around and rearrange things all you like, but we will never come to any kind of agreement on these things. I think it would be a waste of time, yours and mine, to continue this discussion.

I'm working on a response, brother.

Wow! Are you still working on this, after a week and a half? What Paul said in 2 Thes. 2:1-4 above must have really stumped you, huh? But I'm sure you will come up with something, but why bother? Like I said, it would only be a waste of time. I'm finished with this discussion now. We have done nothing but spin our wheels here. I keep showing you the reality that is to come, but you, refusing to see it, keep pointing back to the shadow and believing it's already been fulfilled. I don't have a problem with you keeping your view, because I realize that not everyone will see it, not until it hits them square in the face. It's over as far as I'm concerned and I'm moving on, plain and simple.

I didn't want you to think you were getting away with the last word, after all! By the way, if you can't answer an argument, you resort to labeling and attacking the person?! Isn't that called an "ad hominem" argument? You DO realize that such an argument is a logical fallacy, right?

Believe it or not, I have noticed that having the last word seems to be very important to you. That's okay too, you may have the last word here if you like. I get the feeling this is some kind of competition for you. I guess there's nothing wrong with that either, but I don't think of these discussions that way.

But as far as labeling you and attacking you, I just don't get it. I do remember saying something a long while back in another thread that was out of line. Not that you complained about it or anything, but I noticed that it was a little distasteful myself, so I apologized to you for it. If you don't like me saying that you are a partial preterist, I don't see how that would be a problem when you said yourself, that what you believe is closest to the partial preterist view of eschatology. But as far as attacking you personally, I can not see that either. But I will say this: If I have offended you or hurt your feelings in any way, I want you to know that it certainly was not intentional and I ask your forgiveness. Now you may have the last word.

[Larry 2]

Daniel 9:27 And he (Who?) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

If there are 2520 days of tribulation prophesied according to Daniel 9:27, and those days are to be shortened, does it make sense that for the elect's sake there will be less than the 2520 days?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

...

Wow! Are you still working on this, after a week and a half? What Paul said in 2 Thes. 2:1-4 above must have really stumped you, huh? But I'm sure you will come up with something, but why bother? Like I said, it would only be a waste of time. I'm finished with this discussion now. We have done nothing but spin our wheels here. I keep showing you the reality that is to come, but you, refusing to see it, keep pointing back to the shadow and believing it's already been fulfilled. I don't have a problem with you keeping your view, because I realize that not everyone will see it, not until it hits them square in the face. It's over as far as I'm concerned and I'm moving on, plain and simple.

Look, "no man is an island!" I have other things to do as well. Too bad you've had to wait! Patience is a virtue, y'know. So, be patient! I'll get to you as soon as I'm able! (By the way, don't flatter yourself! It won't take me so long once I can get to it.)

I didn't want you to think you were getting away with the last word, after all! By the way, if you can't answer an argument, you resort to labeling and attacking the person?! Isn't that called an "ad hominem" argument? You DO realize that such an argument is a logical fallacy, right?

Believe it or not, I have noticed that having the last word seems to be very important to you. That's okay too, you may have the last word here if you like. I get the feeling this is some kind of competition for you. I guess there's nothing wrong with that either, but I don't think of these discussions that way.

But as far as labeling you and attacking you, I just don't get it. I do remember saying something a long while back in another thread that was out of line. Not that you complained about it or anything, but I noticed that it was a little distasteful myself, so I apologized to you for it. If you don't like me saying that you are a partial preterist, I don't see how that would be a problem when you said yourself, that what you believe is closest to the partial preterist view of eschatology. But as far as attacking you personally, I can not see that either. But I will say this: If I have offended you or hurt your feelings in any way, I want you to know that it certainly was not intentional and I ask your forgiveness. Now you may have the last word.

Fine. I don't really care about you calling me a "partial preterist." By definition, that's what I am! (Although I don't subscribe to any formal description of the term.) What I object to is your accusation that I "twist things around and rearrange things all I like!" THAT is a lie and is a misrepresentation of what I do! And, it is THAT STATEMENT which I take as a personal attack! It is THAT STATEMENT to which I object!

I would rather this NOT be a competition. I've never been one much for sports because of the temptation for foul play in "friendly" competition. I've always been an advocate for COOPERATION! I believe that we can work together toward a common goal; however, I also know how easy it is for people to be adamant on a particular viewpoint without being truly willing to consider options or other viewpoints. One must be willing to weigh the evidence and make changes as they are revealed to him or her.

Anyway, please give me a little more time. There are good answers for all that you said.

Edited February 17, 2012 by Retrobyter

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shabbat shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER.

All this, of course, is ASSUMING that Yeshua` was talking about "the beast ascending to the Temple!" I don't believe that is true. It has been a VERY common error for people to suggest that the "abomination of desolation" which Yeshua` mentioned in Matthew 24:15 is talking about the Antichrist (or rather, the Beast) setting up an idol in the Temple! NOT AT ALL! Yeshua` was not talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! He was talking about a fulfillment of Dani'el 9 IN HIS LIFETIME! Again, I'll say this: DO NOT REDUCE THIS PHRASE TO A LABEL!!!

Not even close! In Daniel 9 we see abominations (plural) and desolations (plural). These are not what Christ was referring to in Matt. 24:15, for this one is (singular) and it will be fulfilled just before the end of the age. Christ was pointing back to the (singular) abomination of desolation that Daniel mentioned in Dan. 11:36-39, which he also mentions again in Daniel 12:9-11.

Well, THAT’S not true! Have you never read Matthew 23?! Yeshua` was NOT talking about Dan. 11 or 12 at all! Matthew 23 DESCRIBES all the myriad ABOMINATIONS the scribes and Pharisees had committed that led to their desolation ! Then, He concludes His speech against them with the words in Matthew 23:37-39 pronouncing them “DESOLATE” in verse 38, and that flows right into Matthew 24 and 25! In fact, the prophecy of Matthew 24 and 25 couldn’t have happened until Matthew 23 happened! Remember: chapter divisions were not introduced within the Bible until the early 13th century by Archbishop Stephen Langton!

I’m not going to get into it all over again in this thread, but Dani’el 11 is about the history of the Jews within the Gentile nations from Medo-Persia to Rome, including Macedon of Alexander the Great, the constant back-and-forth warring on Isra’el’s Land between the Seleucian Empire and the Kingdom of Egypt under the Ptolemies, and the brief governing of the Maccabees and his brothers! In the specific verses you mention, i.e. 36-39, the passage describes the atrocities of Herod the Great as Caesar Augustus’ vassal king, not some ficticious “Antichrist” of the future!

And, Dan. 12:9-11 is talking about approximately 3.5 years after the abomination of desolation set up by Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 167 B.C. which would be after his death in 164 B.C. It was at this time that Y'hudah haMakhaviy (Judas Maccabeus or Judah the "Hammer") and his family, the Hasmonean Dynasty from 140 to 116 B.C. made their greatest impact since the Jews first came back to Y'hudah and Yerushalayim.

What's not true? I agree that their house was left desolate (Matt.23) in the past (70 A.D.), but this desolation was one of several. It was not the abomination of desolation that He mentions after He departed the multitude and the temple (Matt.24).

I'm in no way discounting what Christ said to the multitudes and His disciples in Matt. 23, and the judgment that fell upon that wicked generation, just as He prophesied. But in Matt. 24, Christ departed from the multitude and left the temple, which is when His disciples questioned Him in private.

Matthew 24:1-3

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Their question is not just about the destruction of the temple. It reaches much farther than the temple's destruction. That is merely the starting point, but you take a very unbalanced view of His answer, tipping the scales in heavy favor 70 AD, while neglecting the future. In fact, I recall you saying in another thread that the only thing future in His answer was the sun, moon and stars. Mark 13 and Luke 21 also mention these things, but Matthew brings much more of the future into view, as Christ does not finish His answer to their question until the end of chapter 25, which is two entire chapters, most of which is about the future (the tribulation, His coming and the end of the world/age), beginning at verse 15.

Matthew 24 contains both past and future events, and so does Daniel 11.

But to say that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes is just ridiculous. In verse 1 of Daniel 12, it says "AT THAT TIME" not just once, but twice, which points back to the same abomination of desolation in Daniel 11. It is not referring to another abomination of desolation, but rather, it shows the time remaining to the end of the age, as you can plainly see the dead wakening from the dust of the earth in verse 2, which is none other that the resurrection of the just.

Daniel 12:1-2

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Daniel 12:11-13

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

Daniel 12 is all about the timing.

Do you see the resurrection in Daniel 12?

Do you see Christ sending the angels to gather His elect in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 24:29-31

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you really believe this abomination of desolation was fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, which happened before Christ came?

What's not true? That Yeshua` was talking about Dani'el 11 or 12! That's what is not true. He was talking about Dani'el 9:24-27! YES! I believe that the "abomination of desolation" spoken about in Dani'el 11 and 12 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes; HOWEVER, what Yeshua` was talking about - Dani'el 9 - was NOT fulfilled by Antiochus! It was fulfilled by the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) - the scribes and P'rushiym (Pharisees) - at the time of Yeshua`s death and resurrection!

Christ was pointing back to what Daniel prophesied would happen in the future, and it would still be off into the future, as it will occur when the dead rise up from the dust of the earth, and when the angels will gather the elect from among the living (rapture), as Paul said the dead will rise first, then we which are alive and remain will be caught up. And speaking of Paul, he also talked about this abomination of desolation and of our being gathered together:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

That, my friend, is the (singular) abomination of desolation that Christ and Daniel 11 & 12 were referring to. He did not say, "When you see your house left to you desolate run for the hills......"

While singular and plural have a part to play in the understanding of the fulfillment of Dani’el 9, it is not exclusively the reason for whether one should say that Yeshua` was talking about Dani’el 11 rather than Dani’el 9.

Look, the rejections of the Messiah, which ARE abominations, were plural, but they led to a singular abomination, the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem!

The abominations caused the desolation, and the desolation caused an abomination! The rejections of the Messiah caused the Messiah to pronounce them desolate, and the desolation in which He left them led to the Temple being destroyed! Furthermore, the desolation in which He left them is not over, yet! It won't be over until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHWH!" "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord!" or "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YAHUWH!" speaking in prayer to God regarding Yeshua` haMashiach, Jesus the Messiah or the Christ, the Son of God! Can you see that this makes sense?

Sure I see the Resurrection in Dani'el 12:2, but I also see the Rescue in 12:1c, and a "time of trouble" in which we still exist in 12:1b! I believe Dan. 12:1a was fulfilled in or before the first century A.D.! Thus, the two "at that time"s are not at the SAME time in human history!

Finally, Dani'el 12:11-13 is separated from verses 1 and 2 by other verses neglected and are neither to be connected to 12:1-2 nor are they in chronological order after 12:1-2! Therefore, Dani'el 12:11-13 are not connected to the Rescue and the Resurrection of 12:1-2 and CAN go back to 11:31, which IS the desecration of the Temple by Antiochus IV Epiphanes!

You partial preterists can twist things around and rearrange things all you like, but we will never come to any kind of agreement on these things. I think it would be a waste of time, yours and mine, to continue this discussion.

Well, if that’s the case, then you have come to the point of being close-minded to other possibilities. But, if you are willing to accept the challenge, look carefully at Dani’el 12:

Dani’el 12:1-13

1 “…And at that time shall Michael stand up, - The “at that time” is talking about the end

the great prince which standeth - of chapter 11, which was fulfilled in the time of Herod

for the children of thy people: - the Great and Caesar Augustus, when Yeshua` came to

and there shall be a time of trouble, - the scene. This is when the “time of trouble” began.

such as never was since there was a nation - This is the pressure that was put on the Jews

even to that same time: - since the time of the Messiah until today.

and at that time thy people shall be delivered, - At the end of the time of trouble, the Jews

every one that shall be found written in the book. - shall be rescued when Yeshua` comes.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust - This is the Resurrection of the Just at the

of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, - beginning of the Millennium.

and some to shame and everlasting contempt. - This is a General Resurrection at its end.

3 And they that be wise shall shine - Yeshua` mentioned this in the wheat/tares parable.

as the brightness of the firmament; - This is when they “shine like the sun in the

and they that turn many to righteousness - Kingdom of their Father.” This takes us all the

as the stars for ever and ever. - way to the beginning of eternity. THE END!

4 “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, - Here, Dani’el is told to close and seal the

and seal the book, even to the time of the end: - scroll until the time of the End. That’s it;

many shall run to and fro, - there’s no more to tell. Ships will sail back and forth, and

and knowledge shall be increased.” - knowledge shall grow.

5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, - At this point, Dani’el notices two other persons

there stood other two, - standing on the banks across from one another, with the one in

the one on this side of the bank of the river, - the middle, the man clothed in white linen

and the other on that side of the bank of the river. - standing upon the river waters.

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, - One of them calls to the one in the middle,

which was upon the waters of the river,

“How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?”

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, - The one in the middle holds up both hands to

which was upon the waters of the river, - the sky & swares by God who lives forever,…

when he held up his right hand - Here, you need to understand that Hebrew has three

and his left hand unto heaven, - grammatical forms that define numbers:

and sware by him that liveth for ever that… - singular, dual, and plural.

“it shall be for a time, times, and an half; - In Hebrew, “mow`eed (singular yearly-cycle

and when he shall have accomplished - of holy days), mow`adiym (dual of same word),

to scatter the power of the holy people, - vaacheetsiy (and a half)” = 3.5 yearly-cycles.

all these things shall be finished.”

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, - Dani’el doesn’t understand and says,

“O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?” - (The word is “adoniy” = “my sir”)

9 And he said,

“Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up - The words on the scroll are closed

and sealed till the time of the end. - and sealed until the “time of the end” which began

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; - in the first century A.D.

but the wicked shall do wickedly:

and none of the wicked shall understand; - Only the wise will understand, not the wicked.

but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that - This back-tracks to the time of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in

the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, - chapter 11.

and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, - This was when Antiochus went to

there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. - Persia, a major turn of events.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to - And, this was when Antiochus died, and

the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. - Judas restored the Temple.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: - Go home and don’t worry about it.

for thou shalt rest, - You shall rest (i.e., take a “dirt nap”)

and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” - and stand in your portion at the very end.

KJV

As far as 2 Thes. 2:1-4 is concerned, it is NOT a prophecy about an "abomination of desolation" at all. Paul didn't even use the phrase in the passage at all! You really need to learn what the "man of sin" means. It is about a person (most probably a Jew) who is against the Torah - the Law of God given to Moses (who but a Jew would care?) Furthermore, the "falling away" is the divorce from the Torah.

[A Rogue Spook]

Hello I am new again here. I was on this board a few years ago. I am not sure what user name I was using because I was on several differ forums with different names, but I wasn’t banned or anything. I had to travel for work the last few years and I am now settled in one location for awhile and have found some time to try to participate in a prophecy forum once again.

I have found many interesting studies over the years concerning Matthew 24, and I believe this chapter of Matthew has some of the most misinterpreted conclusion in the study of prophecy. On this topic I believe there are only two conclusions in an analytical study of what is actually being said. First we must establish context. In verse 22 CHRIST says, “ And except those days should be shortened”. What days are CHRIST referring to? In the context of what is being read we must conclude HE is referring to the days of the period of time HE was just describing in verses 15-21 of Matthew 24. This time period to be shortened begins during the period after the A.O.D. has taken place. Most believe this is the second 3 ½ half year period of the tribulation. Each 3 ½ year period of time are also described in Revelation as 42 months, or 1260 days.

Matthew 24 JKV

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

I also believe most all prophetic scripture has a parallel scripture describing its fulfillment, and I believe the parallel fulfillment for Matthew 24 verse 22, is Revelation 8 verse 12.

Revelation 8 KJV

7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Now, here is where we must look very close at what we are reading. CHRIST reveals in Matthew that HE will shorten the days. There are only two possible physical conclusions here. HE either shortens the number of days of the 1260 days mention as the duration of the period HE describes, or HE shortens the length of the days themselves, shortening the actual time in hours for the 1260 days to pass. This is a physical possibility. Looking at the judgments of the first three trumpets, the earth is being pounded by objects entering the atmosphere from space. The first trumpets are the smaller objects crashing into the earth causing fires that destroy a third of the tree and all the grass. The 2nd trumpet describes an object the size of a mountain being cast into the sea. The 3rd is another object hitting the earth poisoning the fresh waters. I believe the 4th trumpet is the result of the aftermath of the first three. I believe these are meteors or possibly asteroids. Read the 4th trumpet very carefully as to what it is actually saying. In the description of trumpet 4, “the day shone not for a third part of it”, it then says, “and the night likewise”. I believe the impacts from the inbound objects as described in the first three trumpets may accelerate the speed of the earth’s rotation. This will shorten the length of the remaining days by a third, and also the night likewise. Shortening the day in hours by a third equals 8 hours, so the length of a day will be 16 hours instead of 24.

This sounds bizarre, wild, even crazy, but under an analyst this is one of the two possible conclusions. Not saying that this is the correct possibility, only that it is a possibility.

However if this is the correct assumption of the two, here is what can be explained and expected.

1.CHRIST can fulfill HIS promise to shorten the days, not in number, but by their length.

2.The 1260 days can be maintained, because Genesis defines a day as an evening and a morning. Accelerating the speed of the earth’s rotation will not change the definition of a day as described in the Bible.

3.The time it takes for the 1260 days to transpire will be shortened as promised, by a third.

4.We can understand the timing of the trumpet judgments to begin as happening after the A.O.D. takes place.

5.This could explain why men’s hearts are failing them by what is transpiring in the heavens (space) when these events happen.

Again I am not dogmatic here. I present this as a possibility. I also hope that I have spawned an interest of closer examination (analyst) of what the scriptures may be actually saying.