Did Jesus pay for ALL sin (past, present, and future sin)?

[Jayyycuuup]

Hebrews 9:22

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Now, bearing this in mind you ask. . . "What about before the sacrifice of Christ"

Hebrews 10:4

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin."

Now, without blood shed there is not forgiveness, then we read further that the sacrifices of bulls and goats did not atone for the sins that were committed. . that only leaves one plausible conclusion, nothing but the BLOOD of Jesus cleanses us, for Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one can come to the father unless through Him- and we know that no sinner will enter the kingdom of God- thus we are only sanctified by His blood.

1 Corinthians 15:17

"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

No Jesus no savior- stuck in sin- no forgiveness.

[Jayyycuuup]

Hebrews 9:22

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Now, bearing this in mind you ask. . . "What about before the sacrifice of Christ"

Hebrews 10:4

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin."

Now, without blood shed there is not forgiveness, then we read further that the sacrifices of bulls and goats did not atone for the sins that were committed. . that only leaves one plausible conclusion, nothing but the BLOOD of Jesus cleanses us, for Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one can come to the father unless through Him- and we know that no sinner will enter the kingdom of God- thus we are only sanctified by His blood.

1 Corinthians 15:17

"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

No Jesus no savior- stuck in sin- no forgiveness.

According to scripture, PAST sins were forgiven when Christ died on the cross. Can you show me scripture saying that future sins are forgiven?

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I don't see where you get this implication and where the question in mind derived from, but I didn't say the moment Jesus Christ died on the cross all sins were forgiven and forgotten. By asking Him into our lives and accepting the sacrifice He paid for our sins are we forgiven, THAT was the point I was making. No Jesus no forgiveness- if you do not have Jesus as your LORD and Savior you will die in your sins.

Romans 5:9

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

Also, the verse does not say they were "forgiven" God did not hold this against them for they were not under they law that we are under now.

Also- I have a question. . .you believe that every single person before the death and resurrection of Christ went to heaven?

[OneLight]

Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was never the issue. In other words, God and the Holy Spirit can also forgive sins. I think that was the issue that was brought forth.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The Holy Spirit has many names. He is called "The Spirit of God" (See biblical verse above) and also the "Spirit of Christ" (See Romans 8:9) Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in you? I'm sure you do because you read that our bodies is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. And the Bible says that this Spirit is also the Spirit of God. They are one and the same God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, which dwells in us. Let's look again at 1 Corinthians 6, which stated: But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Scripture tells us that we were WASHED in the name of Jesus Christ AND by the Spirit of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God. So, the Apostle Paul is saying that our sins was WASHED by Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God (who is the Holy Spirit).

So, while it is true that Christ's sacrifice on the cross took away our sins, it is ALSO true that God and the Holy Spirit can forgive our sins when we confess them.

So, now back to Jesus' command to His Apostles. Yes it was ONLY His Apostles whom He gave this command: whoever sins you forgive is forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive is not forgiven. Christ said this AFTER He breathed the Holy Spirit on them. Thus, because Christ breathed His Spirit in them, it was the Holy Spirit in them who forgives or retains forgiveness.

And now let's go back to the OP, which is about Christ's sacrifice on the cross as forgiving all sins - past, present and future. Can you show me scripture saying that future sins were forgiven?

You will have to show me where what I posted is incorrect using scripture. You will also have to show me where the Holy Spirit was beaten and died on the cross for our sins where His blood covers our sins. This is what Christ came for. It was not until after that the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to do the will of the Father, except for what is discussed below.

Christ knowing that His Apostles will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit is key in the verse speaking about them receiving the Holy Spirit. What is it that the Holy Spirit speaks to them, guiding them? This is found in John 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." When the Holy Spirit moves them to forgive someone, the Holy Spirit is doing so not by His own authority, but what He hears from God. The Holy Spirit never acts alone.

[RustyAngeL]

I believe He knew us from the foundations of the world. He knew our names, our color, what we would do in our lives. I believe at that time He knew we would make a mess of our lives that from the very beginning we would need a savior. I believe that while Jesus was dying in agony on that cross He looked out into eternity and could see us then and yet He chose to die for us. So yes I believe all our sin is covered under the blood of the cross that was shed by our savior. I have no fear that when I asked for forgiveness I get it. Completely. The Bible says that when God forgives us of our sin, he tosses them into the depth of sea and remembers them no more. Makes it pretty simple doesn't.

[Mcgyver]

Selene, in the final analysis you by your theological leanings have de facto raised the Apostles to a position which is above Christ. I asked a question, and your reply was as follows:

I'm sorry, but if you answered the question then I did not understand your answer...

So I ask again: Could (i.e. was it possible) the Apostles have given absolution and forgiveness on behalf of God to an unrepentant sinner?

Would you answer "yes" or "no" to the above query?

I go by what the Scripture says. Scripture says that Christ gave them that authority when He Himself stated: Whoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven.

That the Apostles had the authority to forgive an unrepentant man of sin against God is not only contradicting scripture, but the words of Christ Himself in Luke 13:3-5:

I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Again in Acts 2:37-38 it is written: Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Without repentance there is no forgiveness nor salvation, but yet by the testimony of your written word you have given that authority to the Apostles in direct contradiction to the inspired word of the living God, and have rendered moot the power of the cross.

Again I wrote:

If what you assert is true, then in fact the Apostles have been elevated to a higher position than Christ. Setting aside the blasphemy against the Spirit...ALL sin/EVERY sin will be forgiven according to Jesus...

But yet in your theological argument the Apostles could retain sin(s) against a person, which means that not all nor every sin will be forgiven, because the Apostles could retain sin.

This is a statement that you have completely sidestepped, but one which stands as a stumbling block to the Gospel and the words of Christ Himself. If in fact the Apostles had the authority to retain a man's sin...then Jesus could NOT forgive all sin, only those sins that the Apostles determined not to retain. Your theology has made the Apostles and not Christ the mediator, High Priest, and final arbiter before God.

Christ died so that all sin could be forgiven; yet you have stated that the Apostles could retain sin in the sense of not forgiving a particular sin, making them greater than Christ.

This is at the final analysis a heretical viewpoint far out of line with the word of God, no matter how one may try to justify it.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Mcgyver

[OneLight]

Jesus dying on the cross for our sins was never the issue. In other words, God and the Holy Spirit can also forgive sins. I think that was the issue that was brought forth.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

The Holy Spirit has many names. He is called "The Spirit of God" (See biblical verse above) and also the "Spirit of Christ" (See Romans 8:9) Do you believe that the Holy Spirit dwells in you? I'm sure you do because you read that our bodies is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. And the Bible says that this Spirit is also the Spirit of God. They are one and the same God.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, which dwells in us. Let's look again at 1 Corinthians 6, which stated: But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Scripture tells us that we were WASHED in the name of Jesus Christ AND by the Spirit of God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God. So, the Apostle Paul is saying that our sins was WASHED by Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of God (who is the Holy Spirit).

So, while it is true that Christ's sacrifice on the cross took away our sins, it is ALSO true that God and the Holy Spirit can forgive our sins when we confess them.

So, now back to Jesus' command to His Apostles. Yes it was ONLY His Apostles whom He gave this command: whoever sins you forgive is forgiven and whoever sins you do not forgive is not forgiven. Christ said this AFTER He breathed the Holy Spirit on them. Thus, because Christ breathed His Spirit in them, it was the Holy Spirit in them who forgives or retains forgiveness.

And now let's go back to the OP, which is about Christ's sacrifice on the cross as forgiving all sins - past, present and future. Can you show me scripture saying that future sins were forgiven?

You will have to show me where what I posted is incorrect using scripture. You will also have to show me where the Holy Spirit was beaten and died on the cross for our sins where His blood covers our sins. This is what Christ came for. It was not until after that the Holy Spirit was sent into the world to do the will of the Father, except for what is discussed below.

Christ knowing that His Apostles will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit is key in the verse speaking about them receiving the Holy Spirit. What is it that the Holy Spirit speaks to them, guiding them? This is found in John 16:13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come." When the Holy Spirit moves them to forgive someone, the Holy Spirit is doing so not by His own authority, but what He hears from God. The Holy Spirit never acts alone.

Where in my post did I say that you were incorrect in using scripture?? As I said in my previous post, the issue isn't about Christ's death on the cross. The issue is "can God and the Holy Spirit forgive sins?" That was the issue. The answer is yes. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one and the same God. All three are the Creator and all three can forgive sins because all three are one and the same God.

You didn't, but you didn't address anything I said either, you only posted more of your belief as if what I said meant nothing. The point is, which has to be dealt with, is scripture tells us that forgiveness of sins is only due to the cross through His shedding of His blood. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not shed any blood, only the Son.

As pointed out, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are three entities that are one in every way. Do you agree with the this diagram below?

[Mcgyver]

I did not raise the Apostles up above Christ. I went exactly by what scripture says.

Truth #1: Did Christ tell His Apostles and ONLY His Apostles that whoever sins they forgive, they are forgiven and whoever sins they do not forgive is not forgiven. The answer is Yes. Is that found in Scripture? The answer is yes.

John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

By your interpretation, yes you did...

A man comes to Christ. Jesus forgives his sin. The Apostle however retains the man's sin.

Who's word is final?

[Jayyycuuup]

Hebrews 9:22

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Now, bearing this in mind you ask. . . "What about before the sacrifice of Christ"

Hebrews 10:4

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sin."

Now, without blood shed there is not forgiveness, then we read further that the sacrifices of bulls and goats did not atone for the sins that were committed. . that only leaves one plausible conclusion, nothing but the BLOOD of Jesus cleanses us, for Jesus is the way the truth and the life, no one can come to the father unless through Him- and we know that no sinner will enter the kingdom of God- thus we are only sanctified by His blood.

1 Corinthians 15:17

"And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

No Jesus no savior- stuck in sin- no forgiveness.

According to scripture, PAST sins were forgiven when Christ died on the cross. Can you show me scripture saying that future sins are forgiven?

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

I don't see where you get this implication and where the question in mind derived from, but I didn't say the moment Jesus Christ died on the cross all sins were forgiven and forgotten. By asking Him into our lives and accepting the sacrifice He paid for our sins are we forgiven, THAT was the point I was making. No Jesus no forgiveness- if you do not have Jesus as your LORD and Savior you will die in your sins.

Romans 5:9

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!"

Also, the verse does not say they were "forgiven" God did not hold this against them for they were not under they law that we are under now.

Also- I have a question. . .you believe that every single person before the death and resurrection of Christ went to heaven?

According to the Bible, Christ descended into the land of the dead to preach the Gospels. Those who listened and believed Him were the only ones who went to Heaven. Could you show me scripture showing that "FUTURE" sins were forgiven??

1 Peter 3:18-20 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us [fn] to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited [fn] in the days of Noah, while [the] ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

I'm not understanding what your reaching for. In my post above I (thought) I had made it clear that I do not think that the moment Jesus died on the cross all sins were forgiven, through a repenting heart- and accepting Him as our LORD and Savior- are we forgiven, made new our sins forgotten etc.

Can you clarify what your asking?

[Mcgyver]

I did not raise the Apostles up above Christ. I went exactly by what scripture says.

Truth #1: Did Christ tell His Apostles and ONLY His Apostles that whoever sins they forgive, they are forgiven and whoever sins they do not forgive is not forgiven. The answer is Yes. Is that found in Scripture? The answer is yes.

John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

By your interpretation, yes you did...

A man comes to Christ. Jesus forgives his sin. The Apostle however retains the man's sin.

Who's word is final?

That was Christ who told the Apostles that whoever sins they forgive are forgiven and whoever sins they don't forgive are not forgiven. I never told them that. In fact, I was not even born 2000 years ago. Are you saying that Christ never told them that? What makes you think that the Apostles will go against Christ when the Bible already said that it would be the Holy Spirit in them who would speak, not them??

I'm not challenging scripture, I am challenging your exegesis of it...

And you didn't answer the question.

So how about this: A man refuses to repent of sin. This man is a family member of an Apostle and is loved by the Apostle. The Apostle grants absolution for the man's sin. Is this possible?

Edited February 27, 2013 by Mcgyver

[OneLight]

You didn't, but you didn't address anything I said either, you only posted more of your belief as if what I said meant nothing. The point is, which has to be dealt with, is scripture tells us that forgiveness of sins is only due to the cross through His shedding of His blood. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not shed any blood, only the Son.

As pointed out, the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son. They are three entities that are one in every way. Do you agree with the this diagram below?

There appears to be an error in your diagram. The part in the diagram that says the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God is correct. But the error is that they were never separate. To say that the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit; the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father and the Son separates them......when they are actually one. In fact, this is what the Bible says:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

This is a prophecy from Isaiah, and it appears that your diagram goes against this passage in the Bible because in this verse it is saying that the Son is called "Everlasting Father" (among other names).

There is the error of your belief system, believing that God sends Himself as three different entities when there are three entities, separate but one. Thinking that when scripture tells us in 1 John 5:7 they are one, that they are physically just that, one entity, is false. Scripture tells us that they are one in every way, but separate. They think the same, they believe the same, they feel the same, they agree completely, but they are not each other. Who did the Father send to be a sacrifice for sins, Himself? Who did Jesus send when He returned to the Father( Himself?), the Holy Spirit (Himself?) They are three different entities who have a bond that is perfect in every way.

Selene, scripture is very clear that Jesus came to die for our sins, not the Father nor the Holy Spirit. They all agreed that this is how it was to be done. Scripture does not contradict itself.

Jesus is the creator of all there is, therefore, the Everlasting Father. He is not the Father as in Jehovah. He is the Son,Yeshua, the Word, who through Him all things that were created was created..