Killing And The Christian

[lesjude]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

If God had intended that no killing would take place on this fallen earth He would not have allowed stonings, wars, etc. Certainly He does not want us to kill anyone yet He has given us over to our fallen govts and we live by those rules. If a person is standing on His truths what can man do to them that God cannot undo, remember it is not man we should be wary of it is God who can kill both body and soul.

These passages are not talking about wars but four main areas where we should trust in God and not man, if we were standing firm on His word we would know automatically that we should not seek our own personal justices or vindication that is for God alone. We are shown four ways to nonresistance but if we go by your model we all would be naked and poor with no home, no food. Do you honestly think that is what God is showing us here? If a believer is being taken to court and that believer knows that he has done no wrong then go that extra distance with whoever wants to take things from you in the end he will be found out if not by man then God knows and will deal with it.

In the end these passage are about the behavior of the believer and how they are seen handling Gods instructions and those who wish to do us harm. They are about behavior that we should always remember to keep in mind after all we are not of this world and our walk should reflect that.

If we are truly walking with Him and our lives reflect that then the only reasons people would have for doing any of these things is because satan is jealous and wants what God has and has come to try and tear us down by attacking the very things the most people hold dear, money and themselves. We need to examine our value systems, our walk with Him and stay away from self serving actions such as hitting someone who hits you without first thinking or better yet asking the person why and trying to come to a conclusion. After all if we belong to Him who is being insulted, who is being sued, is it our own honor and glory we seek or is it His?

shalom,

Mizz

No snowflake in an avalanche feels responsible.

[xero]

@lesjude I hear you! Listening to Jesus' Word alone is the sure guide on the Way to Truth and eternal Life. The Lord made it quite clear that "he who seeks to save his life will lose it", "he who kills by the sword must be killed by the sword", he who is without sin is to cast the first stone. People will justify themselves with scripture but Jesus' own Word is self consistant "Do unto others as you would have done unto you for that is the law and the prophets", "As you judge so you shall be judged", reap what you sow so to speak. The Word is a double edged sword, Ive found numerous double and multiple entendres in scripture as evidence of that fact, so it truly cuts both ways. People find justifications in the OT even if its contrary to Jesus' teachings. Youll get similar reactions in relation to Jesus' teachings about money. The Truth is only True as long as its convenient to follow for the unbeliever but theyre revealed by their own testimony. Just tell it the Way it is, we will be home soon enough.

[Matthitjah]

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg Trials said this. Are you equating the US to Nazi Germany?

No, but the principle fits all the US wars ever fought. You might want to do your own research. The easy ones are Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The rest you will have to dig some but you will find it. I spent 5 years preparing to teach US and European Culture and 22 years doing it in a public high school.

That is absolutely frightening. I pray it wasn't in MD although I wouldn't doubt it.

[~candice~]

It is ANZAC Day in Australia and New Zealand, where we gather together and remember those who fought and died so that we could live in freedom. LEST WE FORGET. The freedom you enjoy, lesjude, was bought at a price. If you don't like it, move to some country where the military hasn't fought for your freedom, and see how you like it.

[lesjude]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Gen. 4:7-8: Cain made the wrong sacrifice which opened the door to sin of hatred, jealousy and finally killing. The sacrifice Christians are to make is in Ro. 12:1-2. When they do not do this and yield to the Holy Spirit training as to what this means they will do what is right in their own sight. This often results in operating in expediency (armed guards in churches) which is operating on the knowledge of good and evil not Life.

Note what Jesus says in Mat 26:52. The disciples surely had a reason to wound and kill to defend each other and Jesus. The antichrist is killing saints and they are to follow nonresistance in Rev 13:7-10

Gen 4: 23-24 tells of a killing for a wounding and possibly to save his own life. He indicates he realizes this was wrong with the statement he makes about Cain in vs 24.

In Gen 8:6-7 is a clear statement on killing. The exception being capital punishment (Old and New testaments) and the OT wars of His judgments on nations whose cup of iniquity was full.

The Bible in Acts 17:25-27 speaks of all being one blood. God's heart at this time is that men be saved not killed or injured, especially not by carnal Christians defending themselves or others.

King David is a type of Christ and was called by God a man after His own heart. However, Father God told him he could not build the temple because he had shed much blood on the earth in His sight. Even though these were nations under judgment in wars God had directed. Here is what God said to King David: I Chron. 22:7-8 and I Chron. 28:3.

Jesus view of "just" wars and physical violence is in Luke 9:51-56. The disciples did not know what spirit they were of! They thought they had a "good" and Biblical response (see Elisha). Christians who either do not have the Holy Spirit or do not submit to His training in this area end up using 'expediency' or OT justifications for their violence which there is none there either.

Every non believer that a Christian kills ends up in the pit which was the point of what Jesus said in Luke 9:55-56. Then after you wound them, or talk to the ones who are left that are not killed, it makes it hard to tell them about the love of the Lord.

Some justify war by saying the US is a Christian nation. There is no such thing. There are nations with the King's citizens in them being salt and light, not acting like the world and serving its Godless systems or relying on the expediency of armed guards in churches.

At this point some anecdotal evidence is in order. Nate Saint and those with him who died rather than defend themselves or each other is an example. I will say they were told by leadership not to go and may be the reason for no Divine protection.

On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman has some good points. After the battle of Gettysburg (the South lost) 100's of rifles were gathered up from the battlefield. Many were double and triple loaded. The reluctance to kill with an individual weapon seemed to be the reason. To cover their reluctance they did not fire but "reloaded". He goes on with more evidence throughout history to support the point, and the ways the military and our society has overcome this God given reluctance to kill.

Also he establishes the killing as the cause of PTSD. His ways to overcome this are junk but his evidence is compelling. This is sowing and reaping for violation of God:s laws.

PTSD is easily overcome by repentance and deliverance. How an airborne ranger and Delta force operator got set free by Jesus when we had the privilege of ministering deliverance to him is an interesting story.

General S. L. A. Marshall makes the point with his unique method of interviewing WW II, Korean War and Vietnam soldiers right after close combat. He interviewed the handful of survivors of Able CO. that hit the Dog Green on Omaha Beach. He talked with about 20 of over 200 not killed or wounded. It was the beach that Saving Private Ryan tried to show at the start of the film. He discovered a very high percentage that did not fire their personal weapons then, and in all these wars except Vietnam. By then the military had devised training to partially overcome the God given resistance to killing.

In Vietnam one platoon of less than 30 men stood off a force of 200 very determined NVA all night with no artillery and some of the time with no illumination. Near the end, having very little ammo left, knowing they were as good as dead they just all started laughing! Captured NVA later said this really affected their morale. I think the US troops had the resistance to killing removed and the NVA didn't. This platoon was mostly just a reg. bunch of draftees that had not even seen the elephant yet.

This training is so effective, along with the conditioning to violence that our society provides, that troops will assault immediately when ambushed by a superior well protected force and win! In training the same men thought to themselves, never will I do this! The other force probably still had that bothersome inhibition.

The US Marines seem to be most open and perhaps best at this. They tell all their 'boots' that they will make them into trained killers! The US Army does the same.

Your take on Matthew 5 is incorrect. If you are going to say that God advocates pacifism, you are going to have to explain why He has had Israel, at times, destroy entire nations of people. There is no such thing as a "Holy War" waged by a country. The United States has not been involved in a just war since WW II, however, you can't throw a blanket over the whole thing and car it wrong. This subject has been debated by people for centuries and pacifism is not advocated in the Bible when a nation is unjustly attacked. I take it you believe our armed forces to be criminals?

Please reread the initial post as it explains the wars in the OT and God's attitude even toward King David.

Preemptive aggressive war is an international war crime. It is one crime the Nazis were tried, convicted and hung for. As long as a nation wins or is strong enough they can do as they wish and do, because they can do as they wish.

Christians are to be transformed by the renewing of their minds into the stature and fullness of Christ. Who would Jesus kill in one of the nation's carnal wars? Would He approve of a citizen of His Kingdom doing the same? He made this very clear to His disciples.

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

1. The last statement was from Adolf Hitler.

2. Jesus told a Roman occupier that he wasn't doing anything wrong, only that he should conduct himself properly and not use his authority as a reason to shakedown people for money. That man was a soldier.

3. While aggressive wars are wrong, projecting military power onto an enemy who attacks your country is NOT. The Japanese attacked us in WW2. We beat their rear ends and my father helped and I am as proud of his actions as I can be. Korea was something necessary to prevent the spread of evil. Vietnam was the same. Communism was and IS evil.

4. You sound like Tony Campolo who quite frankly is full of baloney too.

You might be a believer, and you might not, but spare us the hooey. It's NOT going to work here.

1. No, it was not. However the thesis is true for every US war.

2.It was John the Baptist who told the soldiers that. He did not have the revelation of Matthew 5, 6, and 7. In fact he ended up losing the revelation of who Christ was along with his head. Every Christian should understand how that could happen. Jesus did heal the centurion's servant because compassion is His nature and He honors faith. It is not because He approved of his occupation. Further the centurion did not have the light we have been given, and the Acts 2:4 experience that gives us the power to live Matthew 5, 6, and 7 i.e. nonresistance in this case.

NEVER assume that because Jesus blesses you or anyone that He approves of all that you/they think and do. Many ministers/ministries have fallen because of that assumption. Solomon is an excellent Bible example.

3. I suggest you look into the reasons Japan did attack. That attack was known in advance, a "false flag incident" (i.e. weapons of mass destruction, Iraq). It is the same pattern for all US wars if you are willing to do the research. My father and his brother served in WWII. My uncle did time in places called Tarawa, Saipan and Okinawa as a Marine. He NEVER was the same EVER again. What a tragic waste and so very sad. As long as Christians believe the myths (lies widely believed to be true) they will continue to support carnal wars by worshiping in the false religion of nationalism. They will never realize the power they have in Christ to change the world one soul at a time. Please see Mark 16:17-18. It seems they would rather kill them, hate them, fear them, or sit in church. This is the heart of Jesus?

4. No, thank you very much, I am filled with the Holy Spirit as it says in Acts 2:4. How about you?

[oldzimm]

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg Trials said this. Are you equating the US to Nazi Germany?

No, but the principle fits all the US wars ever fought. You might want to do your own research. The easy ones are Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The rest you will have to dig some but you will find it. I spent 5 years preparing to teach US and European Culture and 22 years doing it in a public high school.

I sure hope you don't move to my grandchildren's school district (not telling, just in case), because if you do or somebody with the same thought comes in and teach such unpatriotic garbage , I'm going to the School Board and I will be giving them an ear full. (and I know how to speak in public, it won't bother me one bit)

Some might be wondering why Oldzimm (a Vet.) hasn't been jumping in a lot on this thread. Because Mr Oldzimm figures it is a waste of time, arguing with people who are clueless on their freedoms and how they got their freedoms. These same people don't seem to realize that if it hasn't been for our brave men and women in uniform, fighting and some of them dying for this precious freedom, they would probably be thrown in prison by now.

I don't need to do research on Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, I was in the Military (US Army) for all three and then some. In Vietnam we were fighting the evils of Communism. If I remember right, the Pentagon and the World Trade Center (remember the two large buildings that are no longer there) were attacked by planes, how many innocent lives were lost? Gee maybe those plane attacks were the reason we were in Iraq and Afghanistan. In Iraq (where my boots spent nearly a year, OIF1) the people needed us there badly, that S.O.B. by the name of Saddam Hussein and his two sons had to go, I could tell you stories about them, but I don't want to ruin your dinner.

Then you mentioned about Sergeant York and Audie Murphy, well let me tell you about those two men and all the other Medal of Honor recipients. Those people went above and beyond the call of duty and they saved thousands of both American and Ally lives. Most Medal of Honor recipients don't even live to have the medal placed around their necks, that is love for their fella soldiers, the USA and our way of life.

John 15:13

English Standard Version (ESV)

Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

[lesjude]

You would be surprised who said this. He is long dead but his statement is true for all the wars the US ever fought.

"Naturally, the common people don't want war, but after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country."

Hermann Göring at the Nuremberg Trials said this. Are you equating the US to Nazi Germany?

No, but the principle fits all the US wars ever fought. You might want to do your own research. The easy ones are Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. The rest you will have to dig some but you will find it. I spent 5 years preparing to teach US and European Culture and 22 years doing it in a public high school.

That is absolutely frightening. I pray it wasn't in MD although I wouldn't doubt it.

I will tell you what is my concern. The educational system is "dumbing" the students down. When I taught I used original sources and the historical method to teach students to think, analyze, question, evaluate, and use evidence to support their conclusions with what I had available. Now it has gone back to memorizing names, dates, places, and set "answers". There is little or no thinking or questioning. Teachers now must teach for the test and no more so then in the state I live in. It is very clear what the students are being prepared for.

Jesus showed me to leave teaching so I did. He clearly revealed the system was turning the hearts of the students away from Him, their parents, and I was taking the wages of a harlot. Jesus did not let me see the LIES, half truths and "spun" facts I was teaching until later. It is quite ugly.

[~candice~]

They went with songs to the battle, they were young.

Straight of limb, true of eyes, steady and aglow.

They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,

They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:

Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.

At the going down of the sun and in the morning,

We will remember them.

LEST WE FORGET.

[lesjude]

@lesjude I hear you! Listening to Jesus' Word alone is the sure guide on the Way to Truth and eternal Life. The Lord made it quite clear that "he who seeks to save his life will lose it", "he who kills by the sword must be killed by the sword", he who is without sin is to cast the first stone. People will justify themselves with scripture but Jesus' own Word is self consistant "Do unto others as you would have done unto you for that is the law and the prophets", "As you judge so you shall be judged", reap what you sow so to speak. The Word is a double edged sword, Ive found numerous double and multiple entendres in scripture as evidence of that fact, so it truly cuts both ways. People find justifications in the OT even if its contrary to Jesus' teachings. Youll get similar reactions in relation to Jesus' teachings about money. The Truth is only True as long as its convenient to follow for the unbeliever but theyre revealed by their own testimony. Just tell it the Way it is, we will be home soon enough.

Nonresistance is perhaps the hardest thing to receive in the Bible. It is understandable because people are programed their whole lives to think the opposite. Nationalism/patriotism may be one of the strongest principalities in the spirit world. It is also because Christians do not understand who they are in Christ and what kingdom they are citizens of. We have the power in us that raises the dead, but act like we need to fear and use carnal weapons rather than do what Jesus says to do in Mark 16:17-18 and Matthew 10:7-8. These are the things that Jesus and the original disciples did that turned their world upside down. I would be no different today if.... Oh well maybe in another 2000 years? The King is waiting on His people to prepare the way just as John the Baptist did before His first coming. Jesus has done already ALL He is going to do. It is our turn to do what He says the way He says to do it by the power of the Holy Spirit.

No, I do NOT believe in dominion theology.

[Guest shiloh357]

The principle of Mat 5:38-48 is nonresistance toward all. No killing or wounding or returning evil by a Christian. This is what father God had always intended in the old and new testaments.

Sorry, but that Bible doesn't say that at all. Mat. 5:38-48 is not about non-resistence or what is better kown as pacificism. Pacificism is a secular, not a biblical precept.