Euthanasia is wrong!

[Guest LadyC]

Have you ever been in pain for weeks on end? When death is enevitable and all that remains is suffering and pain I'll take the low ground. We shoot horses don't we? Yes I know we are not horses. The point being is we have more compassion for animals than our fellow man

No, we don't shoot horses. I'm aware that is a movie title. Actually, Obama wants us to eat them...I'll pass

You think there is compassion for animals? I guess you have not seen the millions of photos of dogs and other animals deliberately starved, tortured,

and neglected.

If you wish to make a case for 'the low ground' as you put it, perhaps you should not use animals as an example. Most animals that are put down would

rather live. There are too many dogs and cats because people are irresponsible and do not neuter their pets.

Animlas that are slaughtered for consumption are often suffering greatly and in terrible fear before the 'merciful' release of death

Of course you are free to decide your own demise but that is not God's desire for people.

yes, we do shoot horses. and all sorts of other animals. these days it's not with a bullet, it's with an injection.

telling someone not to use animals as an example is pure folly. of COURSE we should use animals as an example. yes, we are all aware of the animal abuse cases that are rampant, and the neglect cases. but you talk as though that's the only time animals are put down.

i've had to put down three beloved pets in the last four years. two of them within the last ONE year. they weren't abused, nor were they neglected. they were old, and their health had deteriorated. they were terminally ill. to keep them alive longer was to be cruel and merciless. one had a combination of a thyroid tumor and advanced renal failure, and a blood pressure spike caused her to go blind. that cat was 20 years old. jordy, my most beloved himalayan, had a tumor growing on his neck at the rate of 1/4" per week when i had him put down at the age of 19. and just a few months ago, 17 year old dax developed congestive heart failure. i watched him suffer for weeks. he could barely breathe, he would cough up blood, and eventually was even getting petichial (sp?) hemmoraging (sp?) around the eyes and nose. we had no money to take him to the vet. my mom finally noticed how bad he was and she paid for it.

i'll repeat, to let ANY of them live in that kind of suffering would have been cruel and inhumane... and i believe God would not have wanted me to allow their suffering to continue. why then, would i think God would WANT us to allow a human to suffer in such a way?

for the record, people use the argument all the time that God is the one who has the authority to end life as an argument against the death penalty. or against self defense. and so on. yet God gave MAN the authority to take life under those circumstances.

i can't recall any scripture where God specifically authorizes man to put another out of their suffering, but i do know that scripture never condemned the man who took saul's life on the battlefield, when he was critically injured and asking for death.

[AnotherSinner]

here's something to ponder....

when an animal is suffering and there is no cure, euthenasia is encouraged. but when a human is suffering and there is no cure, euthenasia is a criminal act.

we can all sit here an judge euthenasia to be wrong or not wrong, but there is no scripture, IMO, that indicates that medical assistance to end one's suffering in that way is any more "wrong" than using any other medical intervention. i know that my father suffered for three years before he finally died. i don't know why God allowed him to continue living, if you could call that living. but He did allow it, and i won't question why. but....

if someone gets cancer and, for whatever reason, does not get chemotherapy or whatever other treatments are available, God allows them to suffer.

if someone gets heart disease and needs a transplant but doesn't get it, God allows them to suffer.

if someone gets shot and a doctor doesn't take the bullet out, God allows that person to suffer.

perhaps the reason God allows a terminally ill patient to suffer is because those whom HE has given the authority to end their suffering haven't been permitted by law to do so.

i'm a wuss. i hope when i die it's quick and painless. and if it can't be quick and painless, then i sure hope laws have been passed by that time to allow me to die with dignity at a time of my choosing. don't think i wouldn't consult God about it, i most certainly would. but frankly, i can't imagine my loving heavenly Father telling me "tough beans, you have to suffer a few more years."

go ahead, stone me. i'm sure there is at least ONE person here who will agree with me, even if they won't admit it.

LadyC,

Suffering of any kind is heartbreaking. Yet....the question whether asked or not does seem to linger...does it not? The question I refer to is the one, you said you would not ask. The why...

Scripture may or may not provide a clear answer on euthanasia being right or wrong. However, scripture DOES explain suffering. We see real examples of suffering in Job as he lost all that he had. An even greater example of suffering is none other than Jesus Christ, our Savior, Himself. He endured cruelties not just physical but emotional from the world He came to save.

A particular passage that really defines suffering and its purpose is this one:

Romans 5:1-5 (NIV) Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, ² through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.And we boast in the hope of the glory of God. ³ Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings,because we know that suffering produces perseverance; ⁴ perseverance, character; and character, hope. ⁵ And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Suffering today can still be a lesson of hope to us. There is a little angel in my family who was born with a rare condition. It is one that is not curable to date. With it too are many health issues that make her quality of life different from various others. So far...she has truly been blessed that she has not had to have an open heart surgery which is not uncommon for individuals with her condition. Her faith though...her innocent love for Jesus is nothing short of astounding though! Such child like innocence and love for Jesus I have not seen even among the most eager in worship. There is a glow...a certain air or spirit about her that just leaves one in awe.

That kind of love, is the kind of love I would like to have for Jesus. Yet it is a love...I cannot even begin to fathom.

Death can indeed seem like a frightening thing. For none of us know when or how we will leave this earth. That is perhaps another reason why all of us should cherish the time in which we have. We all only get one chance to get it right. Remember though it is through Christ Jesus, that we are freed from the bonds of sin and have that final victory over death. So when our time comes to leave this earth, we can have the blessed assurance that Jesus saves and has saved us from eternal damnation so long as we not only believe but live in faith as well as obedience to Him!

We need not be afraid either. The spirit of fear...it is not something given of God.

2 Timothy 1:7 (KJV) For God has not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Just Another Sinner Seeking The Way

Dani

[Guest LadyC]

AS, while i appreciate what you have to say there, the fact remains that the child you speak of was not terminal. the fact also remains that job was not terminal. hindsight shows that yes, there was a purpose for job's suffering, and a reason for hope. time may prove the same for the child you're talking about.

but in cases where death is the only outcome, that hope for a future, or hope for even an improved quality of life no longer exist, those types of examples can't even begin to compare.

you're right. God gives us no clear answer in scripture on the matter of euthenasia. and where God gives us no clear answer, who are we to make one up? who are we to say "this is wrong" when God never said one way or another? for His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

and that really is my only point.... that none of us have the right to sit in judgment of others and say that their choice for or against euthenasia is wrong. only God gets to decide that.

[AnotherSinner]

AS, while i appreciate what you have to say there, the fact remains that the child you speak of was not terminal. the fact also remains that job was not terminal. hindsight shows that yes, there was a purpose for job's suffering, and a reason for hope. time may prove the same for the child you're talking about.

but in cases where death is the only outcome, that hope for a future, or hope for even an improved quality of life no longer exist, those types of examples can't even begin to compare.

you're right. God gives us no clear answer in scripture on the matter of euthenasia. and where God gives us no clear answer, who are we to make one up? who are we to say "this is wrong" when God never said one way or another? for His ways are not our ways, and His thoughts are not our thoughts.

and that really is my only point.... that none of us have the right to sit in judgment of others and say that their choice for or against euthenasia is wrong. only God gets to decide that.

Actually LadyC,

She is not supposed to be here today. We were told she had a year at best. Doctors true, have been proven wrong time and time again. She realistically can go at any day any hour be it due to her narrowing heart valve or other conditions that she has. Most who have her condition are truly fortunate if they make it up to their 30's. Every day she has is a blessing. All the more so as her health is never good. Although I cannot complain for God has been working in her and has been watching over her. She has come a long way in her 20 years of life.

Life is such a delicate thing. It is truly the most amazing of God's miracles save for Jesus, Himself.

When it comes to judgement.....that is something that from a Bible standpoint is not encouraged to be done among one another. Then.... I am still learning.

You need not worry about judgement from me. You will not get any. Life and death are both sensitive subjects. Hope if your heart seeks any answers that God leads you to find that which is sought. For we are taught, if we seek...we shall find.

Just Another Sinner Seeking The Way

Dani

[Sevenseas]

yes, we do shoot horses. and all sorts of other animals. these days it's not with a bullet, it's with an injection.

telling someone not to use animals as an example is pure folly. of COURSE we should use animals as an example. yes, we are all aware of the animal abuse cases that are rampant, and the neglect cases. but you talk as though that's the only time animals are put down.

So you wish to be thought of as just another animal then? Well, alot of people think we are just animals, but a Christian certainly knows better

Actually, I have not talked...what I wrote, appears to be quite taken out of context by you

i've had to put down three beloved pets in the last four years. two of them within the last ONE year. they weren't abused, nor were they neglected. they were old, and their health had deteriorated. they were terminally ill. to keep them alive longer was to be cruel and merciless. one had a combination of a thyroid tumor and advanced renal failure, and a blood pressure spike caused her to go blind. that cat was 20 years old. jordy, my most beloved himalayan, had a tumor growing on his neck at the rate of 1/4" per week when i had him put down at the age of 19. and just a few months ago, 17 year old dax developed congestive heart failure. i watched him suffer for weeks. he could barely breathe, he would cough up blood, and eventually was even getting petichial (sp?) hemmoraging (sp?) around the eyes and nose. we had no money to take him to the vet. my mom finally noticed how bad he was and she paid for it.

Oh boo hoo. I am an animal lover and have had dogs and other pets practically my entire life. I don't get them confused with people though. And neither does God.

Animals are not people. Do you love people enough to pray for them or do you just want to put them down if they are in pain and old? If they are not saved, what,

just put them down? Maybe that is God's way of having them turn to Him...you do not have the right to kill a human being. Only God has the right to take a life.

THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. There is no gray area there. Animals are not people...Using animals is a ridiculous example. Shall we also neuter people if we think

they already have enough children or perhaps we don't think they should reproduce because they are an inferior example of a human being?

Where do we draw the line? Honestly....

i'll repeat, to let ANY of them live in that kind of suffering would have been cruel and inhumane... and i believe God would not have wanted me to allow their suffering to continue. why then, would i think God would WANT us to allow a human to suffer in such a way?

Again, you believe that animals and humans have the same value? Jesus did not die for our pet dogs. We have more value than an animal. People who think that they

have the right to end the life of another are deceived.

for the record, people use the argument all the time that God is the one who has the authority to end life as an argument against the death penalty. or against self defense. and so on. yet God gave MAN the authority to take life under those circumstances.

Gee I wonder where that argument comes from? THE BIBLE MAYBE??? THOU SHALT NOT MURDER. Taking a life (that also refers to the unborn) is murder.

YOU do NOT have the right to do that. There is no truth to your belief that God has given people the right to take a life. That is garbage.

It is a dire lack of knowledge of scripture that would lead a person to the conclusion people can play God and end life when they want to.

That kind of thinking, will lead to people in wheel chairs and people past their prime being put down too when society no longer believes that human life

is sacred. God gave His Son to die for us....it is not human to kill...it is wrong and the doctrine of devils. You just might kill someone that would have

accepted Jesus if they had lived another week or so.

[Guest LadyC]

oh my gosh, you have a lot of nerve... not only do you pass judgment on people who disagree with your viewpoint, you judge whether or not i'm a christian

but a Christian certainly knows better

you assume i think of people as animals

So you wish to be thought of as just another animal then?

you show a definite lack of Christ-like compassion

Oh boo hoo.

you think i'm addle-brained

I don't get them confused with people though. And neither does God.

you question my love for people and whether i pray for them

Do you love people enough to pray for them or do you just want to put them down if they are in pain and old?

and you speak as though i EVER implied that i, personally, had the right to take the life of a person who was suffering, which i most certainly did not.

you do not have the right to kill a human being.

furthermore, you dismiss scripture regarding this:

Only God has the right to take a life.

. God has given man the AUTHORITY under many circumstances to take life. not you or i personally, but to people in certain positions. for example, in cases of self defense, in cases of justice (death penalty), and in matters of war. God does not indicate one way or another regarding the taking of a life that is suffering. that is YOUR assumption based on YOUR understanding of scripture and God's character.

and MY assumption, based on MY understanding of scripture and God's character is that He may not necessarily want us to suffer when there is no quality of life left and no hope of recovery. just as God has appointed certain men with the GODLY AUTHORITY AND RIGHT to take a life under other circumstances, it is entirely within His character to grant that authority to physicians to ease one's suffering. TOTALLY within His character. but we are to obey the laws of the land, and the laws of this land do not permit assisted death.

since you make so many assumptions and judgments about me, let me pass one about you. apparently you think that God has more compassion for animals than for human beings... since He most certainly wouldn't want an animal to suffer (and if it wasn't mother's day i'd seek out the scripture where God is saying about the sabbath that if your ox or whatever it was falls into a ditch and is injured, to put it to its death).

so is that it? you really think God is more merciful to animals than to His children?

get off your high horse.

[Guest Butero]

Of course God makes his position clear on euthanasia. He says, Thou Shalt Not Kill. We know that this commandment doesn't apply to the death penalty for murderers, because God put the death penalty in the same law that forbids murder. We know he didn't intend it to forbid killing in self defense, such as on the battlefield, because he would often order his people to go to war. On the other hand, he did forbid us to simply kill an innocent person, sick or well. God is in control. He has an appointed time for each person to die, and we are not given the authority to murder someone to put them out of their misery. It is not the same as killing an animal, as we were never forbidden to do so. We do it all the time, if for no other reason than food. Euthanasia is just another word for murder when it applies to a person.

By the way, God never tells anyone to put an injured ox to death on the Sabbath. He tells them that if their ox falls into a ditch on the Sabbath day, a person will surely pull the ox out. I am not going to attack anyone for having compassion on a sick and suffering animal, but God never said to do so. He just never forbids the killing of animals. I have had many pets over the years, and all died of natural causes. I chose to let them live out their lifespan. It was a personal choice in individual cases. I went to the other extreme and had the vet do everything possible to save them, which they did. When it was their time, they died.

[AnotherSinner]

So you wish to be thought of as just another animal then? Well, alot of people think we are just animals, but a Christian certainly knows better.

Can this please stop? This sort of talk causes so much anger as well as resentment. Why is it when there is a disagreement in terms of issues be they biblical or otherwise the first words that are uttered is that one is or is not a Christian....

Gentle words turn away anger....harsh ones stir it up and cause it to well up inside another.

Is there no way this matter can be discussed civilly?

[Guest Butero]

It is a dire lack of knowledge of scripture that would lead a person to the conclusion people can play God and end life when they want to.

That kind of thinking, will lead to people in wheel chairs and people past their prime being put down too when society no longer believes that human life is sacred.

I just want to address this one point. I am trying to be careful here because I can see that LadyC took your comments as an attack on her, and I am not looking to do that. If I am not mistaken, last year she was planning to read through the Bible in a 2 month span, so I won't assume she has no Bible knowledge. I went through it myself at the same time.

Regardless of that, what you are speaking of is the "slippery slope" this kind of thing takes us down. Those of us in the pro-life movement were warning people that when you have aborion on demand, it will lead to a cheapening of human life. Before I go any further, I am not accusing LadyC or anyone of not caring about the unborn. I am pretty sure she is opposed to abortion? I am just making a point. It makes it easier to kill in general when you allow for people to kill unborn babies for conveniece. This led to the "death with dignity" movement and the living wills. I was concerned about that back then, and the effects it would have? Of course we have the right to refuse treatment, but these are steps towards more drastic changes in public perception about human life. It leads us to the place where a Jack Kevorkian type can come along and be viewed as some kind of hero. In one of his assisted suicides, the person claimed to be terminally ill, and it turned out they were just severely depressed because of a hand injury that made it impossible to continue playing the piano, something this person dearly loved to do. I understand the thinking here, and why someone wants to show compassion to a person who is suffering, but I have to believe that God knows what we are going through, and will choose when to end a person's suffering?

[Guest Butero]

So you wish to be thought of as just another animal then? Well, alot of people think we are just animals, but a Christian certainly knows better.

Can this please stop? This sort of talk causes so much anger as well as resentment. Why is it when there is a disagreement in terms of issues be they biblical or otherwise the first words that are uttered is that one is or is not a Christian....

Gentle words turn away anger....harsh ones stir it up and cause it to well up inside another.

Is there no way this matter can be discussed civilly?

Of course you are right AnotherSinner, but this kind of topic stirs up strong feelings, and I feel confident that Sevenseas didn't realize how this was coming across? We all find ourselves doing this kind of thing at times. I have been trying hard to work on avoiding that kind of speech, but we are only human, and emotions get in the way. You can't believe what you just read, and you speak from the heart. You don't think about how the other person will take it. That is why threads get nasty and wind up being closed. Most of the time, the person doesn't even realize they did anything wrong?