speaking in tounges

[OneLight]

OneLight:

I am not of the school who claim one needs to speak in tongues to enter heaven.

I agree, no need to discuss certain camps belief systems with no scripture to support it. One should not believe that those of us here that speak in tongues believe the same things.

Then why be on a discussion forum if not to discuss?

[enoob57]

[it is called faith. We don't know what the Holy Spirit prays for, we just trust that it is for the best. Are we trust God with our lives, but not with His praying for us? Why do we have to know what is being said.asked?

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We have this very same faith when it comes to praying in the Spirit. We don't need to know what is being said to know that it is for our good. Do we know what God is going to do in our future when we pray in our own tongue? No, we have faith that His will will be done. Take one more step in faith and know that what the Holy Spirit prays for us will never harm us.

Again, we don't have to know what is being said to know it is of God.

My view of subjectivity through emotional response is suspect due to the unchecked nature

of the mechanics in knowing a thing … The reasoning is clearly seen in the complete communication

from which the Lord says

Isa 1:18-20

18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord, “Though your sins are like scarlet,

They shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

19 If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; 20 But if you refuse and rebel,

You shall be devoured by the sword"; for the mouth of the Lord has spoken

NKJV

As the The Word was an eternal element of God and all things were made through that element into a

desired communication within the infinite begin. However said communication does extend out of our

abilities as man however we are to continue with God with the purpose of continuance to strive for more

understanding! Not a- 'well that’s beyond me so thus unattainable'… but an ever pressing of all that we

are comprised of in which to gain in this more intimate and enriching understanding of The Lord Jesus

Christ ‘The Word that became flesh’… now this form of communication ‘tongues’ that bypasses the mind

to encourage and enrich through enticement of emotion as motivational toward what end? Why when it

is His Word fashioned in reason by rightly dividing it that we are made complete? 2Tim 2:15

Faith although a thing not seen is still a communication of reason-> it is able to be hoped for as a substance

having merit of entity not just emotional basis… It is trust in the Lord with all thine heart not trust in your heart

for all the Lord… as many of you who practice this form of personal enhancement toward God am I incorrect

in my understandings? Can you see my way of searching out the truth of this gift as proclaimed today as being

from God? We are family and do not read judgment in any way of this post as I have not this gift that you speak

of and can only examine it by God’s Word for the elements of His property! Love, Steven

[OneLight]

Shalom Steve,

Not all that we see and hear about the gifts are true, no more that what we are taught by many of those who follow God is true. We must hold it up to scripture and His witness in us.

[OneLight]

Onelight:

Then why be on a discussion forum if not to discuss?

You have a point, but we should be careful not to just assume what others believe and stereotype them. Most of us that speak in Tongues do not believe it's a sign that your saved, or that if you don't, then it's hell fire for you. There is a small confused group that believes that.

It's like saying that you all are just Baptist and use their denomination against them who for a lot of them think the gift has long passed away. I can't determine what someone believes by who they associate with.

You seem to have a lot of revelation concerning the gifts, but I can't say you belong to a Church that has everyone hanging off the rafters upside down and laying all over the floor. I have seen that also, nothing against it, but it's not for me.

Jesus is Lord.

I am happy to hear you feel that way. We discourage focusing on the "person" rather than the "subject". Those who try to figure others out are usually wrong, causing a lot of damage in the process. We also don't like to see blanket statements because of a few radical believers that belong to a specific denomination.

I have been studying the gifts for over thirty years. I believe in the gifts, that they are still in use today according to His Spirit and His Will, not according to any self righteous people who want to make a name for themselves, trying to show they are more righteous then the one next to them.

As we walk and grow in Christ, we have to do so in all humility and truth, leaving false teachings and false doctrine behind when we find them to be false.

[Botz]

....... No one that believes in this prayer language which they do not understood has as yet tried to explain how it benefits them if they do not know what is being said. I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified. That just makes more sense to me. If anyone feels otherwise, that is their business but that does not mean on open forums and in public that I have to agree with them. After all, Paul also said, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I would be interested to know where you believe this 'prayer language' that some of us claim to have been gifted with comes from?

My personal experience of tongues/languages in my private devotions goes like this:

1. When I engage G-d in tongues, I am using a supernatural gift and I know by faith my spirit is communicating with Him.

2. As I speak I also seek to let my mind connect to my spirit so that I can get the gist of what direction my prayer is taking.

3. When my mind becomes focused and follows my spirit I begin to speak words to the L-rd in my own language.

4. If I am praying for a sustained period, it can become repetitive and if I want to continue in prayer emotionally and passioinately

it becomes difficult to sustain the impetus...so I carry on in tongues, sometimes singing, sometimes worshipping, and often even as

I am doing this, my mind is refreshed, I get clarity I get further direction and therefore I pray in my own language.

5. By the end of things I have gone through an experience that engages my whole being and has made use of the Helper whose

specific function is especially to aid me in praying more effectively and I am aware of the spiritual dimension in which I have been

operating by the grace of G-d, and I know that He has made, difficult, laborious, even dull prayer times into something dynamic

that also edifies my inner man.

It is disingenuous to say in so many words that Paul dismissed tongues and that he would rather speak 5 words in a known language.

He made that comment regarding speaking in the midst of the congregation, you have given context a 'bad name' in this instance.

1Cor 14: 18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Two things are immediately obvious....Paul speaks in tongues a great deal....so where does he practice this?

Paul acknowledges that tongues are not much use in the comgregation...where five words that are understood would trump 10,000 words in tongues

that would only benefit the one uttering them.

One final thing to note is that perhaps Paul isn't claiming to speak in tongues more than any other person, but rather is more 'thankful' than any other

because he recognises the value of the gift when properly activated...and hence wants to encourage the Corinthians not to abuse or mis-use it.

[allofgrace]

....... No one that believes in this prayer language which they do not understood has as yet tried to explain how it benefits them if they do not know what is being said. I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified. That just makes more sense to me. If anyone feels otherwise, that is their business but that does not mean on open forums and in public that I have to agree with them. After all, Paul also said, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I would be interested to know where you believe this 'prayer language' that some of us claim to have been gifted with comes from?

My personal experience of tongues/languages in my private devotions goes like this:

1. When I engage G-d in tongues, I am using a supernatural gift and I know by faith my spirit is communicating with Him.

2. As I speak I also seek to let my mind connect to my spirit so that I can get the gist of what direction my prayer is taking.

3. When my mind becomes focused and follows my spirit I begin to speak words to the L-rd in my own language.

4. If I am praying for a sustained period, it can become repetitive and if I want to continue in prayer emotionally and passioinately

it becomes difficult to sustain the impetus...so I carry on in tongues, sometimes singing, sometimes worshipping, and often even as

I am doing this, my mind is refreshed, I get clarity I get further direction and therefore I pray in my own language.

5. By the end of things I have gone through an experience that engages my whole being and has made use of the Helper whose

specific function is especially to aid me in praying more effectively and I am aware of the spiritual dimension in which I have been

operating by the grace of G-d, and I know that He has made, difficult, laborious, even dull prayer times into something dynamic

that also edifies my inner man.

It is disingenuous to say in so many words that Paul dismissed tongues and that he would rather speak 5 words in a known language.

He made that comment regarding speaking in the midst of the congregation, you have given context a 'bad name' in this instance.

1Cor 14: 18 I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all; 19 however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Two things are immediately obvious....Paul speaks in tongues a great deal....so where does he practice this?

Paul acknowledges that tongues are not much use in the comgregation...where five words that are understood would trump 10,000 words in tongues

that would only benefit the one uttering them.

One final thing to note is that perhaps Paul isn't claiming to speak in tongues more than any other person, but rather is more 'thankful' than any other

because he recognises the value of the gift when properly activated...and hence wants to encourage the Corinthians not to abuse or mis-use it.

I did not miss use the words of Paul meaning, I just adding my own by saying if I did not understand what I was saying, what is the benefit to me and I added what Paul concluded, that

I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified.

If you say it benefits you, pray on, that does not mean that I am persuaded that it is something that I would teach as being for today. As far as Paul speaking more in tongues, I believe that is because he traveled to many areas that spoke different languages and God gave him the ability to speak their languages. That would seem reasonable that he probably did speak in languages he had never learned more than others. And as far as where the gift you say you use comes from, if no one know what is said even those using it, how do you determine where it comes from? The scripture does say to examine the spirits. But you don't have to move on my convictions and I do not move on others convictions. The Holy Spirit of truth has not taught me to accept this and their I stay till otherwise. Have a great day. Edited December 26, 2012 by allofgrace

[enoob57]

....... No one that believes in this prayer language which they do not understood has as yet tried to explain how it benefits them if they do not know what is being said. I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified. That just makes more sense to me. If anyone feels otherwise, that is their business but that does not mean on open forums and in public that I have to agree with them. After all, Paul also said, let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

I would be interested to know where you believe this 'prayer language' that some of us claim to have been gifted with comes from?

My personal experience of tongues/languages in my private devotions goes like this:

1. When I engage G-d in tongues, I am using a supernatural gift and I know by faith my spirit is communicating with Him.

2. As I speak I also seek to let my mind connect to my spirit so that I can get the gist of what direction my prayer is taking.

Brother Botz when you say your mind involved is it sensing direction of the emotional context?

What do you mean by gist?

3. When my mind becomes focused and follows my spirit I begin to speak words to the L-rd in my own language.

How do you know these are words if they contain no defined meaning to you?

Is this known to you by association- normal use as conversation with others / now as phonetics from your mouth to God?

4. If I am praying for a sustained period, it can become repetitive and if I want to continue in prayer emotionally and passioinately

it becomes difficult to sustain the impetus...so I carry on in tongues, sometimes singing, sometimes worshipping, and often even as

I am doing this, my mind is refreshed, I get clarity I get further direction and therefore I pray in my own language.

5. By the end of things I have gone through an experience that engages my whole being and has made use of the Helper whose

specific function is especially to aid me in praying more effectively and I am aware of the spiritual dimension in which I have been

operating by the grace of G-d, and I know that He has made, difficult, laborious, even dull prayer times into something dynamic

that also edifies my inner man.

This edification is it an emotional sensation based on the experienced control outside of yourself assuring you of God's involment with you?

Thank you for your openess about your understanding and practice I know it comes from a heart of love! So Please

if this seems the least bit offensive or to clinical in you regards please feel free to ignore it Botz as you know I consider you my

brother in Christ! Love, Steven

[enoob57]

I am not really concerned with what someone considers more scriptural. I just know that on the day of Pentecost, when the disciples were filled with the Spirit, while in the upper room, they began to speak in tongues. They were not preaching to anyone, as they all were of the same language. When Cornelius and his household was filled, they spoke in tongues, and they were not preaching to anyone. You can believe what you will, but I know for a fact that tongues are real, and that which is perfect has not come yet.

Again I come only to understand outside of the gifting you speak of...

How else can I understand else I examine the Scripture and your responses?

You say the perfect has not come. Then loved one how can this be so?

2 Ti 3:17

17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

NKJV

The concept of complete here is as KJV interpreted (perfect) and one only needs to ask one's

self is (if?) complete lacks nothing --- so it is _ _ _ _ _ _ t ya think???

Also the word used is

artios NT:739

(ar'-tee-os); from NT:737; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete:

KJV - perfect.

and not found anywhere else in the New Testament! Rather curios wouldn't you think

Love, Steven

[Botz]

I did not miss use the words of Paul meaning, I just adding my own by saying if I did not understand what I was saying, what is the benefit to me and I added what Paul concluded, that

I go with Paul said when he said I had rather speak 5 words that I understand than 10,000 words that I or anyone else doesn't understand because no one is edified.

If you say it benefits you, pray on, that does not mean that I am persuaded that it is something that I would teach as being for today. As far as Paul speaking more in tongues, I believe that is because he traveled to many areas that spoke different languages and God gave him the ability to speak their languages. That would seem reasonable that he probably did speak in languages he had never learned more than others. And as far as where the gift you say you use comes from, if no one know what is said even those using it, how do you determine where it comes from? The scripture does say to examine the spirits. But you don't have to move on my convictions and I do not move on others convictions. The Holy Spirit of truth has not taught me to accept this and their I stay till otherwise. Have a great day.

I know what you state you believe in...or more to the point do not believe in...that is your choice....but if you are going to say or question things on the Forums

always expect a response even if it doesn't quite gel with your understanding in your Christian walk thus far.

Paul was an extremely learned man, and dountless spoke a number of languages, however trying to reason humanly speaking over what Corinthians is talking about

regarding spiritual gifts misses the point...in what way do you presume someone is 'edified' by speaking mysteries to G-d? Speaking in foreign languages that we

understand to G-d hardly warrants the same consideration, and again within the context of these chapters makes little sense.

I expect your understanding of 'examining the spirits' differs considerably from mine, and you don't really touch on what you truly think IMO.

Some Christians just come right out with it and say they think people that speak in tongues have been deceived by devils, and are conning themselves

if they think it has anything to do with any sort of gift from G-d. (Usually their reasoning has a Baptist flavour and denies the gifts continue today).

[allofgrace]

'Botz'

I know what you state you believe in...or more to the point do not believe in...that is your choice....but if you are going to say or question things on the Forums

always expect a response even if it doesn't quite gel with your understanding in your Christian walk thus far.

I have no problem with that, but in turn others also should expect the same thing.

Paul was an extremely learned man, and doubtless spoke a number of languages, however trying to reason humanly speaking over what Corinthians is talking about

regarding spiritual gifts misses the point...in what way do you presume someone is 'edified' by speaking mysteries to G-d? Speaking in foreign languages that we

understand to G-d hardly warrants the same consideration, and again within the context of these chapters makes little sense.

I do not think anyone is edified if they don't know what they are saying unless someone interprets to them otherwise it remains a mystery. As far as Paul speaking foreign languages that he understood would go hand in hand with what he said in Corinthian letters because I believe it was God who gave him the gift of speaking these languages and also the gift of interpreting these languages, so the presumption could be misplaced.

I expect your understanding of 'examining the spirits' differs considerably from mine, and you don't really touch on what you truly think IMO.

Some Christians just come right out with it and say they think people that speak in tongues have been deceived by devils, and are conning themselves

if they think it has anything to do with any sort of gift from G-d. (Usually their reasoning has a Baptist flavour and denies the gifts continue today).

Anyone when presuming about flavors should also be aware that it is the, as you word it, the Pentecostal flavor to accept the practice, but no minds are changed by either flavor. I always tells those that ask me what I think of someone speaking in a language they don't understand nor receive an interpretation for it, and those that holler and jump, I tell them it doesn't make me any difference how loud they shout or how high they jump, the difference to me is how straight they walk according to the word of God when their feet hit the ground.

Edited December 26, 2012 by allofgrace