webb Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 Hi Firestomx, in response to your post #468 the theories as to the identity of the 2 witnesses in Rev.11 are numerous and hopelessly contradictory. Some think the witnesses are Eoch and Elijah, some say Moses and Elijah etc., and then there is your understanding. I believe it may be best understood by identifying the 2 witnesses as the Old Testament and the New Testament. The 2 witnesses are identified in the chapter as also being the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks. May I ask who or what you believe the witnesses are? God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 Hi Onelight, in respnse to your post 462, if I have failed to answer any of your questions addressed to me I apologize. If you will please state them clearly I will attempt to answer. And, no, I do not claim to know and understand everything in the Bible (and most anything else for that matter). God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 Butero, in response to your post 469: The word "apostle" basically means "messenger" so in that sense missionaries may be termed apostles. However, I was referring to the apostles of Jesus Christ. They, definetly are in a class of their own, are they not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 Butero, in response to your post 477 I did not imply tongues ceased on Pentecost. Maybe you need to read or reread some prior posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 Hi gdemoss, in response to your post 475, If the kingdom is YET to come then why did Paul and John teach that they and the saints with them WERE IN the kingdom at the time of their wriings??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allofgrace Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 158 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 26 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/30/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 (edited) Hi Firestomx, in response to your post #468 the theories as to the identity of the 2 witnesses in Rev.11 are numerous and hopelessly contradictory. Some think the witnesses are Eoch and Elijah, some say Moses and Elijah etc., and then there is your understanding. I believe it may be best understood by identifying the 2 witnesses as the Old Testament and the New Testament. The 2 witnesses are identified in the chapter as also being the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks. May I ask who or what you believe the witnesses are? God bless Actually, I would side with Firestomx seeing as how what he said is from scripture and knowing that you always ask for scripture and he did post Rev 11:6 but I will post the two paragraphs of the same chapter and everyone can read it again for themselves and see that he was right. This is clearly not talking about the OT & NT: Rev 11:1-12 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire. 7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. Now after reading this according to just what is written can you tell me you see these two witnesses as the Old and New Testaments? I don't think you will hold to your view, but just in case, show the scripture that you get your view from would you? Edited December 26, 2012 by allofgrace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 Thank you Allofgrace, I refer to your post 519. I didn't address it fuller because of the complexity of the subject and lack of time. I shall give a more thorough address. Its always my desire to keep posts brief. The 2 witnesses are the 2 olive trees and the 2 candlesticks, Rev.11:3,4. This means that the 2 witnesses are symbolically represented by olive trees and lampstands. Remember, Revelation is a book of symbols. The purpose of the candlestick is to give light ( Matt.5:15). Anything that gives light may figuratively be called a candlestick. Thus, the 7 churches (1:20) are called candlesticks. Compare that to what David called the word of God in Psalm 119:105. Lampstands (in marginal reading) can ONLY give light through the oil they contained, thus the things which furnished the oil are called the witnesses. You will find a simular symbol in Zech.4:2-14, with but one candlestick with 7 lamps. The olive trees emptied their oil into the lampstands. They are explained to mean the 2 anointed ones (vs.14). Zerubbabel was told that what he would do would not be by the might of his army but by God's Spirit, vs.6. Thus, the meaning is that just as the oil supplied to the lampstands by the olive trees gave light, so what he did would be by direction of the Spirit of God. Thus in Rev.11 the thought is the light given by the Bible is due to the fact that it was spoken by men inspired by God's Spirit and this is the teaching of II Pet.1:19-21. The word "witness" means one who testifies, and testimony is what is said. The Bible is divided into 2 parts, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Those 2 testaments are witnesses in the sense that they present to us God's testimony. Inasmuch as the Bible is of 2 testaments, that is, 2 testimonies they represent God's testimony. At this point I pause, for if what is presented here is not of logic and most of all scriptural then for me to continiue is not only a waste of time but pedantic. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 26, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 26, 2012 I am not really concerned with what someone considers more scriptural. I just know that on the day of Pentecost, when the disciples were filled with the Spirit, while in the upper room, they began to speak in tongues. They were not preaching to anyone, as they all were of the same language. When Cornelius and his household was filled, they spoke in tongues, and they were not preaching to anyone. You can believe what you will, but I know for a fact that tongues are real, and that which is perfect has not come yet. Again I come only to understand outside of the gifting you speak of... How else can I understand else I examine the Scripture and your responses? You say the perfect has not come. Then loved one how can this be so? 2 Ti 3:17 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. NKJV The concept of complete here is as KJV interpreted (perfect) and one only needs to ask one's self is (if?) complete lacks nothing --- so it is _ _ _ _ _ _ t ya think??? Also the word used is artios NT:739 (ar'-tee-os); from NT:737; fresh, i.e. (by implication) complete: KJV - perfect. and not found anywhere else in the New Testament! Rather curios wouldn't you think Love, Steven Just for informational purposes: G739 Complete, sufficient, completely qualified. More closely, one in which all the parts are complete or whole and what they are suppose to be, so they might serve their destined purpose. This is a bit more than just one word, "complete". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted December 27, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2012 Hi Onelight, in respnse to your post 462, if I have failed to answer any of your questions addressed to me I apologize. If you will please state them clearly I will attempt to answer. And, no, I do not claim to know and understand everything in the Bible (and most anything else for that matter). God bless Post #462 is you own post, not mine. Onelight, in response to your post #459, I simply ask you for a starter, do you believe we have apostles today? I believe we have the same apostles as those apostles of Christ in the 1st century church (Peter, James, John etc.) in te sense that we have their teachings in the completed NT. Perhaps, when you want to refer to another post, you could use the "Quote" button on the bottom right of each post so there will be no confusion, and nobody has to rifle through a thread trying to find the post you are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webb Posted December 27, 2012 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 75 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/19/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted December 27, 2012 Hi Onelight, in respnse to your post 462, if I have failed to answer any of your questions addressed to me I apologize. If you will please state them clearly I will attempt to answer. And, no, I do not claim to know and understand everything in the Bible (and most anything else for that matter). God bless Post #462 is you own post, not mine. Onelight, in response to your post #459, I simply ask you for a starter, do you believe we have apostles today? I believe we have the same apostles as those apostles of Christ in the 1st century church (Peter, James, John etc.) in te sense that we have their teachings in the completed NT. Perhaps, when you want to refer to another post, you could use the "Quote" button on the bottom right of each post so there will be no confusion, and nobody has to rifle through a thread trying to find the post you are referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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