asper Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 Hi gdemoss, I just want to comment on the following, Quote, As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of. Unquote, Do you have a reference or an example of a masculine gender taking on a neuter gender (in Greek) because you referred to it as that? I am unaware of this. Upon careful reflection it appears that I misunderstood what I was looking at. I am going back over some things and studying them out thanks to your question. What I had said was not clearly stated and wrought confusion. I was referring to the method used to denote gender. What was revealed to me that I didn't understand was the use of the adjective as substantive. I am currently going back through some of the new testament to understand the method of translation for it. Thanks for asking the question! Gary quite alright, it happens to me esp more since i am getting older...God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His_disciple3 Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 6, 2012 I am going to lay this out, if you want to pick it up then pick up, if you want to leave it laying then leave it laying, 1 Cor 13:10 says that when the perfect ONE comes, That Knowledge vanishes, if all the scholars can remember back Before satan tricked Eve, there was no knowledge of Good and evil with mankind. Knowledge is define from scriptures as knowing the difference between right and wrong, the completion of the canon of scripture did not vanish knowledge, but just the opposite with the scriptures knowledge increased. we will not have fullness as these scriptures in 1 cor. 13 imply , until the Perfect lamb of God returns and we will not need to know right from wrong and knowledge will vanish 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Hi gdemoss, I just want to comment on the following, Quote, As I understand Greek adjectives must match the nouns they modify in gender. If I was to speak about something that normally has gender but refer to it as 'that' then it would take on a neuter gender though it be describing something normally having masculine or feminine gender. The argument from the use of gender is useless. The Holy Spirit is referenced as neuter because the word spirit is neuter but when pronouns are used to describe the Holy Spirit they are masculine. Therefore the neuter in this case is absolutely no help in determining what is the perfect that is being spoken of. Unquote, Do you have a reference or an example of a masculine gender taking on a neuter gender (in Greek) because you referred to it as that? I am unaware of this. Upon careful reflection it appears that I misunderstood what I was looking at. I am going back over some things and studying them out thanks to your question. What I had said was not clearly stated and wrought confusion. I was referring to the method used to denote gender. What was revealed to me that I didn't understand was the use of the adjective as substantive. I am currently going back through some of the new testament to understand the method of translation for it. Thanks for asking the question! Gary quite alright, it happens to me esp more since i am getting older...God bless. Getting older...yeah, great teacher. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 6, 2012 hi one light, do you have any instances where Jesus is referenced in the neutar when in His unearthly form (following the normal greek grammer rules of course) I gave you the scripture. If being in Christ we are neither male of female, what dos that say about Christ? Understand that there is no need for gender when we are with God. We will not need to reproduce. If we are to be like Christ, not having gender speaks of the likeness of Christ. I doubt very much that anyone can find an instance so I will look at the verse presented which was used to question the sex of Jesus Christ in his unearthly body. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Clearly it is talking about us not being male or female. Not Jesus Christ. In context Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. I believe that it’s talking about that man is not over the woman in this sense of being the child of God. Not that we are sexless. What purpose would being male or female grant us in our next life? Are you inclined to believe that we will be married and have families? Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Though scripture does not come right out and say that there will be no gender in heaven, many do hint of it. Hi onelight, I would agree except for the fact it is in the present tense, there is no indication of it being future Galatians 3:28 There is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> Jew <2453> nor <3761> Greek <1672>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> bond <1401> nor <3761> free <1658>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> male <730> nor <2532> female <2338>: for <1063> ye <5210> are <2075> (5748) all <3956> one <1520> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>. TVM: Present 5774, Not Stated 5799, Indicative 5791, Count: 1617 The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present. Tell me, is Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? I also would like to know why you have gone down this path? What does being neutered have anything to do with not having a gender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 6, 2012 Perhaps I should clear the air so we can have a good discussion instead of some trying to disprove me just because of their beliefs, A little over 40 years ago I was a roman catholic charismatic for about 6 years. I spoke in tongues just as much as anybody. But the more I studied the more I realized that there is no conclusive proof that tongues exist today. Neither is there any conclusive proof that they do not. There are times when I visit a particular church that says that tongues exist today. (I would go more because I like their preaching but it is pretty far for me) they don’t push it down my throat like some here appear to be doing. But they do have specific rules that they follow that are according to the Bible. Among other things one is, No interpreter, no speaking in tongues in the church. So basically what I am saying is do whatever you think is right. But don’t misuse the Scriptures when you propagate your beliefs. That is all I ask. I am afraid that is not how you opened this thread. Your question centered around if Jesus was the "perfect" in verse 10. Now you seem to be changing the whole line of meaning. Why? As for people here trying to "push it down your throat", this is a discussion board, not a church. We do just that, discuss. Some believe on a subject strong enough to stand hard and firm. These will be solid in their replies. Others are not so grounded in a certain belief, not sure exactly which way they fall on the matter, and their replies will reflect this. Shalom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 I am going to lay this out, if you want to pick it up then pick up, if you want to leave it laying then leave it laying, 1 Cor 13:10 says that when the perfect ONE comes, That Knowledge vanishes, if all the scholars can remember back Before satan tricked Eve, there was no knowledge of Good and evil with mankind. Knowledge is define from scriptures as knowing the difference between right and wrong, the completion of the canon of scripture did not vanish knowledge, but just the opposite with the scriptures knowledge increased. we will not have fullness as these scriptures in 1 cor. 13 imply , until the Perfect lamb of God returns and we will not need to know right from wrong and knowledge will vanish 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV hi his disciple 3, it does not say perfect one. it says that which is perfect. not he who is perfect. i would not refer to Jesus as that. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) hi one light, do you have any instances where Jesus is referenced in the neutar when in His unearthly form (following the normal greek grammer rules of course) I gave you the scripture. If being in Christ we are neither male of female, what dos that say about Christ? Understand that there is no need for gender when we are with God. We will not need to reproduce. If we are to be like Christ, not having gender speaks of the likeness of Christ. I doubt very much that anyone can find an instance so I will look at the verse presented which was used to question the sex of Jesus Christ in his unearthly body. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Clearly it is talking about us not being male or female. Not Jesus Christ. In context Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. I believe that it’s talking about that man is not over the woman in this sense of being the child of God. Not that we are sexless. What purpose would being male or female grant us in our next life? Are you inclined to believe that we will be married and have families? Matthew 22:30 and Mark 12:25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Though scripture does not come right out and say that there will be no gender in heaven, many do hint of it. Hi onelight, I would agree except for the fact it is in the present tense, there is no indication of it being future Galatians 3:28 There is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> Jew <2453> nor <3761> Greek <1672>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> bond <1401> nor <3761> free <1658>, there is <1762> (5748) neither <3756> male <730> nor <2532> female <2338>: for <1063> ye <5210> are <2075> (5748) all <3956> one <1520> in <1722> Christ <5547> Jesus <2424>. TVM: Present 5774, Not Stated 5799, Indicative 5791, Count: 1617 The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense. Some phrases which might be rendered as past tense in English will often occur in the present tense in Greek. These are termed "historical presents," and such occurrences dramatize the event described as if the reader were there watching the event occur. Some English translations render such historical presents in the English past tense, while others permit the tense to remain in the present. Tell me, is Jesus the same yesterday, today and tomorrow? I also would like to know why you have gone down this path? What does being neutered have anything to do with not having a gender? hi onelight, of course Jesus is the same but what has that to do with His plan? is the world flooded every day? does He deliver the israelites from the egyptians every day. and neuter not neutered is the word that was being discussed. Edited July 6, 2012 by asper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asper Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 226 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 38 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/26/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/15/1954 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) Perhaps I should clear the air so we can have a good discussion instead of some trying to disprove me just because of their beliefs, A little over 40 years ago I was a roman catholic charismatic for about 6 years. I spoke in tongues just as much as anybody. But the more I studied the more I realized that there is no conclusive proof that tongues exist today. Neither is there any conclusive proof that they do not. There are times when I visit a particular church that says that tongues exist today. (I would go more because I like their preaching but it is pretty far for me) they don’t push it down my throat like some here appear to be doing. But they do have specific rules that they follow that are according to the Bible. Among other things one is, No interpreter, no speaking in tongues in the church. So basically what I am saying is do whatever you think is right. But don’t misuse the Scriptures when you propagate your beliefs. That is all I ask. I am afraid that is not how you opened this thread. Your question centered around if Jesus was the "perfect" in verse 10. Now you seem to be changing the whole line of meaning. Why? As for people here trying to "push it down your throat", this is a discussion board, not a church. We do just that, discuss. Some believe on a subject strong enough to stand hard and firm. These will be solid in their replies. Others are not so grounded in a certain belief, not sure exactly which way they fall on the matter, and their replies will reflect this. Shalom my observations are my own. i have no problem discussing things. you can have it your way i don't really care either way. .and no i havent changed anything. "that perfect" cannot be Jesus. reread if you must. goodnight Edited July 6, 2012 by asper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Grammatical gender does not always match natural gender. Little daughter - neuter gender strongs 2365 http://concordances.org/greek/2365.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His_disciple3 Posted July 6, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted July 6, 2012 I am going to lay this out, if you want to pick it up then pick up, if you want to leave it laying then leave it laying, 1 Cor 13:10 says that when the perfect ONE comes, That Knowledge vanishes, if all the scholars can remember back Before satan tricked Eve, there was no knowledge of Good and evil with mankind. Knowledge is define from scriptures as knowing the difference between right and wrong, the completion of the canon of scripture did not vanish knowledge, but just the opposite with the scriptures knowledge increased. we will not have fullness as these scriptures in 1 cor. 13 imply , until the Perfect lamb of God returns and we will not need to know right from wrong and knowledge will vanish 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV hi his disciple 3, it does not say perfect one. it says that which is perfect. not he who is perfect. i would not refer to Jesus as that. 1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. so do tell us from scripture when knowledge vanishes? could that be referring to behold the Kingdom of God is at hand?, could That, mean the new heaven and earth which will be perfect, maybe we don't know but one thing we can be sure of knowledge, didn't vanish with scriptures! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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