How can I trust God to bring physical healing to others?

[carlos123]

Over the years of my Christian life I have thought about this on and off with never a satisfactory answer so I thought I would start a new thread to see if the Lord might give me some insight through some of you all about this.

I have been reading Mark the last week or so and a number of verses out of Mark have also been brought to the forefront of my thinking with respect to this issue too.

Incidentally I have been doing a LOT of reading about various bible versions and have decided to go back to using the KJV (King James Version) or a version that is based on it exclusively (as opposed to the NASB). For now I will be using the 21st Century King James Version so all quotes are from that version.

Anyway here are some verses in Mark...

Mark 4:37

And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the boat, so that it was now full. But He was in the hind part of the boat, asleep on a pillow; and they awoke Him and said unto Him, "Master, carest thou not that we perish?” And He arose, and rebuked the wind and said unto the sea, “Peace, be still.” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. And He said unto them, “Why are you so fearful? How is it that ye have no faith?”

The reason the disciples could not do what Jesus did was NOT because they could not but rather because they had no faith to do it.

Mark 6:4

But Jesus said unto them, “A prophet is not without honor, save in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” And He could do no mighty works there, except that He laid His hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them. And He marveled because of their unbelief. And He went round about the villages teaching.

It is ironic that in a place where Jesus marveled at their lack of faith, that He could still heal a few sick folks. If we go by that as a barometer of how great our faith is we must come to the conclusion that our lack of faith today is of a measure that surpasses even the lack of faith that made Jesus marvel since even a few sick folks can't hardly be healed today! At least in North America.

Acts 7:13

And He called unto Him the twelve, and began to send them forth two by two, and gave them power over unclean spirits, ... And they went out and preached that men should repent. And they cast out many devils, and anointed with oil many who were sick, and healed them.

People who were sick were often said to have unclean spirits. Spirits over which Jesus gave the apostles power to cast them out.

If much sickness is due to spiritual possession why can't we of today cast out the spirits and heal the physical manifestation of these spirits?

Mark 11:12

And on the morrow, when they had come from Bethany, He was hungry; and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, He went to see if perhaps He might find any thing thereon. But when He came to it He found nothing but leaves, for the time for figs was not yet. And Jesus spoke and said unto it, “Let no man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever.” And His disciples heard it.

Mark 11:20

And in the morning as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots. And Peter, calling to remembrance, said unto Him, “Master, behold, the fig tree which Thou cursed is withered away.” And Jesus answering, said unto them, “Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, that whosoever shall say unto this mountain, ‘Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea,’ and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass, he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, what things so ever ye desire when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

What Jesus did to the fig tree we can ALL do IF we believe. It is not a matter of dispensation, where such things have ceased to be able to be done but, rather a matter of having a lack of faith!

How can we have that kind of faith? Beats me.

A couple of days ago I went to use a public bathroom and found a stopped up toilet. I tried to flush it down while rebuking the stoppage of poop and whatever else was in there but nothing. The toilet remained blocked.

A few days before that I rebuked a bunch of ants coming into my habitation and...nothing. They still came in such that I have had to fight them ever since.

I have rebuked allergic reactions on my skin, tooth aches, colds, you name it and...nothing. Things remain as they are.

How can I grow in faith so as to be able to take advantage of these great promises to do the things Jesus did and which things are clearly possible for those who have faith??

I have no clue.

I've even had Pastors pray for me in the spirit of James where it says to call for the elders of a church to pray over you when you are sick and...nothing.

Mark 16:17

And these signs shall follow them that believe: In My name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them. They shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, He was received up into Heaven, and sat at the right hand of God. And they went forth and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the Word with signs following. Amen.

I know there is some controversy about these verses at the end of Mark. Quite frankly I don't care about the controversy and believe they are part of God's word. Whether you believe that or not doesn't matter to me at all.

What matters to me is that the essence of what is said in these verses IS found in other verses too!

That signs will accompany believers as they proclaim the Gospel testifying to the truth of it in the eyes and minds of those who hear.

Today we have a sanitized Christianity which is nearly all head (i.e. of the intellect). At least in North America or Western culture.

Few if any signs are happening except in far flung foreign countries.

I want to change that. Why? Because barring that our Gospel is just another intellectual, religious belief like so many others with no supporting proof that it stands for the real God. I believe in a Living Jesus who lives to do what He did while on Earth through His Body!

Only thing is that my belief doesn't seem to be enough. For the most part my experience of the Living Christ remains subjective and NOT objective. So how can I change that?

How can I grow in my faith so as to see these things happen again for the greater glory of God?

All my rebuking and praying against this or that in the name of Jesus does no good.

Anybody?

I don't want to get into some theological debate where we argue the finer points of dispensationalism or what have you. I could care less about such things in so far as I don't believe the folks who say that these types of things have ceased to be - not by the Word at least. I want to bring the Lord back into life today as He was then! That's what I want. For the glory of God and the furtherance of the Gospel.

But...well...I don't quite know how to do that.

Carlos

[gdemoss]

Carlos, I feel you. When I began to desire getting close to God, I too wondered these same things. I have coveted the gifts, all of them. I want to be able to do miracles, heal the sick, cast out devils, prophesy to edify, speak in tongues all for the glory of God and to further his kingdom here upon the earth. Faith is that which is grown from the initial seed planted and watered by God.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The righteousness of God is revealed in us who believe as we grow in faith. One of the things that I have learned is that I do not believe everything that I think I believe, though my faith is increasing daily. Today I find that I speak out openly without fear about Jesus Christ as Lord and sin as something that needs to be avoided at all cost. I believe in God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Paul said, of the gifts, covet them but I show you a better way. Then he went on to talk about love which is the greatest miracle of all. Paul understood that the gifts were good and to be used to glorify God but that love was greater than any gift of the Spirit. Love never fails. I believe that so I began loving people. A man who formerly hated me with a passion is now more of an advocate from a distance because I loved him when he was mean and hateful to me. He spewed out venom at me and I in turn asked him to dinner at a nice restaurant so I could proclaim the gospel to him. He took a rain check but kept my words in his heart. I have counselled him through love on occasion seeking to help him understand the world around him from a biblical perspective. He has yet to convert but has softened a bit. Love never fails. God is love. When his word goes out it accomplishes that which it was intended and does not return to him void.

I believe God is still giving gifts to people for the purpose of doing the work of the ministry but it is just that, for the work of the ministry. The gifts are given to profit without. I believe I was given the gift of prophecy because the scriptures come alive to me and speak to me about that which is to come. I have also been given that which others have needed to know to help them grow and reveal the mysteries of the faith unto them for their benefit that they also might benefit others. But the greatest gift I have ever been given is the ability to love the unlovable through the mercy and grace of God. As you know, I have had interest in building a home church and bringing together people to serve God in a way as is described in the bible. I currently have a group of men that number 5. We meet on Wednesday mornings for breakfast and edify one another to prepare each other for the work of the ministry. We have also began to meet on Tuesdays during lunch to fast and do intercessory prayer for others in need. We have been bonding and working to become of one mind, body and spirit in unity through the love of God.

One of the men is a dreamer of dreams. One night before I went to sleep, I asked the Lord to give him a dream and show him of things to come. The next day, after I had forgotten my request, he came to me and said 'I had this weird dream last night, I was of 12 guys who were together, all wearing the same thing though I could not tell what it was and we were all in perfect peace.' We have been working as a body. I continue to pray that God will grow us up in his image that we be no longer separate but one with God and each other through his spirit and his word.

I bring these things up because I believe whole heartedly that as our group grows, and I believe our number will be 12, we will begin to see the gifts manifest themselves through those within the group. But the greatest gift of all will be love, the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. I do want to see the miraculous but the truly miraculous is when human beings love others who are not worthy of love. The gifts of God are without repentance. If God considers someone faithful and puts them in the ministry giving them a gift, the gift is theirs and is never rescinded and this makes the giving of them an important consideration on the part of God.

In the past as I was trying to figure this all out, I did things like predict 2 inches of snowfall before morning. Nothing. Rebuked wasps and hornets. Nothing. Etc. Etc. What I understand is that I was not exactly acting in faith but testing to see if I could actually do it. I didn't know what to expect as a result but merely wished to consume these things upon my own lust. I once tried to bring a dead kitten back to life. I believed that God could do it. I asked him to do it. I laid my hands on the kitten and spoke over it. Nothing. I buried the cat. I really wasn't acting in faith though, nor working to further the kingdom of God by my actions. I was testing. Testing God.

When God chose to confirm my words to a man I was ministering too, he moved his pastor to preach on every topic I discussed with him the following Sunday after I discussed them with him. He was amazed. I had no idea but God chose to confirm my words with signs following. I once acted on faith early in my Christian walk. My wife wasn't buying the gospel but only getting annoyed with my preaching non stop. I had heard a sermon about the paraletic who was healed when they lowered him down to Jesus. He wasn't healed by his faith but by the faith of those who ripped the roof off and lowered him in. That night I gathered up 3 other Christian men and went with them and figuratively ripped the roof off and lowered her in through prayer. Within 48 hours she said to me "What if I believe?", she has been a believer ever since. I acted in faith, nothing wavering. But though I was able to do that when I thought to repeat it, I found I wasn't acting in faith any longer but only thinking that I might have a cookie cutter method of trying to save the world, that maybe if we selected one person each day and ripped the roof off in prayer we could save everyone. My motives changed. I stopped acting in faith. Results were futile.

Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him].

We are only given the spirit by measure, while Jesus had the spirit without measure. I earnestly desire the kingdom of God to be here upon the earth. I yearn for Jesus to return and rule. I desire to be conformed wholly into the image of Jesus, the express image of the person of God, having victory over sin and death. I would absolutely love to possess the gifts of the spirit, all of them, so that I can be more effective in ministry. Lord willing I will be gifted. It would not hurt my feelings one bit if he would just give them to the men I work with in my group and do the works through them to build his church. But above all things, I want to see in each one of them the love of God shed abroad in their hearts.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[carlos123]

Carlos, I feel you. When I began to desire getting close to God, I too wondered these same things. ...

Thanks for the input Gary. Much appreciated.

I think it's wonderful that the Lord has seen fit to surround you with other men that you can discuss these things with and fellowship with. I wish I had that myself but...I don't and have no clue how to find such men. Most men that I encounter are churchy men who wouldn't touch something that does not fit in with the status quo of churchianity with a ten foot pole.

But as wonderful as I think it is what you are experiencing with these men Gary I do have a thought or two that I would like to pass along regarding what you said and how it may relate to seeing the miraculous gifts operate today.

Love is without a doubt the greatest gift of all. No question of that whatsoever. If we don't have genuine Christ like love in and operating through our lives we are nothing and will accomplish nothing.

I cannot overstate that.

But...the sign gifts are not a matter of love OR the sign gifts but rather a matter of love AND the sign gifts.

We are to have both!

Jesus taught his disciples to love AND he gave them power over unclean spirits to heal the sick. It is AND.

So I agree with your assessment that love is the greatest but my question is how can I, how can we, grow in faith to be able to claim the verses where Jesus talked about how all things are possible for him who believes.

Those verses are not in our bible's for nothing though you would think they are by how so very many Christian folks simply ignore them or put them on the wall in a nice picture frame and walk around in life completely oblivious to their lack of application.

One other thought Gary...

You came to realize that your motive in wanting to see the miraculous was to test God. Having come to realize that you seem to have set aside the desire to see these gifts operate to focus on love. Which is all well and good in one sense (if indeed that is the case) but I would say that if we come to realize that our hearts are in the wrong place...the better and more godly thing to do...would be to change our motives but still seek the Lord on how to do the sign gifts out of a pure and godly motive.

If our motives ARE pure and desirous of seeking His glory and the furtherance of His Kingdom but we see nothing happen of the sort that He empowered His disciples to do...my question has to do with why not?

Assume for a minute that my motive is pure and godly. I see no reason to believe it is not though I grant you that something may be lurking deep down inside that is not pure...the Lord will reveal that in good time if that is so...but assume for a minute that my motive is absolutely godly.

Why do I not see more sign gifts occur?

Why not?

Is it God's fault? I mean is He really the Living Lord? Powerful and able and willing to do whatever He did when on Earth through His Body today?

Or is it mine?

Well...I think it's pretty obvious that the problem is me. So if that is the case...then what do I do to change? How do I repent from who knows what to be able to become a vessel through whom God will work through me (through us) to do what Jesus did while on Earth?

Carlos

[gdemoss]

Good questions Carlos. I need to take time to pray and reflect. I will return to the conversation when the Lord provides.

Gary

[carlos123]

Here are some additional thoughts I got this morning.

All verse quotes are from the American King James Bible (a modern English version of the King James that is in the public domain and may be quoted freely).

Acts 1:8

But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.

1 Corinthians 2:4

and my word and my preaching was not in persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power -- that your faith may not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What kind of power is it if all we do is preach the message of the Gospel without combining it with demonstration of the power of the Living Christ working in and through us?

Not much if you ask me.

Acts 2:22

You men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the middle of you, as you yourselves also know:

Approved of God by miracles, wonders, and signs eh? Interesting.

What kind of person claiming to have a relationship with the living God cannot show by such things that they have God's approval?

If we of today have God's approval does it not stand to reason that God will show forth His approval of us as His people by doing through us who claim to be His Body the things that Jesus did?

Acts 3:6

Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

...

And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together to them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering. And when Peter saw it, he answered to the people, You men of Israel, why marvel you at this? or why look you so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk? The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his Son Jesus;

...

his name through faith in his name has made this man strong, whom you see and know: yes, the faith which is by him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Is it a glory to Jesus Christ if we preach the Gospel to people who are in need of a healing and leave them in their state of disability or sickness?

Is that not akin to preaching about a Living Christ to a person who is starving and doing nothing to help feed them? I think so!

It was by the power and holiness of Christ in them that Peter and John healed that man! NOT their own!

Is Jesus Christ as powerful and as holy today as He was when Peter and John spoke to that man as they did? Of course!

So why can't we go around doing what Peter and John did?

Beats me.

Peter and John where called before the religious leaders and castigated for doing what they did and threatened and told not to preach in the name of Jesus again.

Acts 4:23

And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said to them.

And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, you are God, which have made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Who by the mouth of your servant David have said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against your holy child Jesus, whom you have anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatever your hand and your counsel determined before to be done.

And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant to your servants, that with all boldness they may speak your word, By stretching forth your hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of your holy child Jesus.

Is that our prayer today?

If not WHY NOT????

Why did God work with and through His Body then to do what He did for the glory of Jesus and the furtherance of the Gospel and not do that today through us here in North America???

Why?

If He did it then would He not want to do that again today?

I THINK SO!

The question is HOW can we see that happen? How can we learn to trust God to operate that way today?

For the glory of Jesus the Living, that is LIVING, Lord and the furtherance of His Kingdom.

Carlos

[carlos123]

Good questions Carlos. I need to take time to pray and reflect. I will return to the conversation when the Lord provides.

Gary

No problem at all Gary. As always, take your time and return when and if the Lord gives you something to say on this thread. I always appreciate hearing your comments.

Carlos

[carlos123]

You know it strikes me as a disgrace today how many of us go around saying that we believe in the gifts of the Spirit, in ALL the gifts, that they are for today as they were for then but where we don't make room in our hearts and in our practice for ALL the gifts to actually manifest.

I wonder if Paul would rebuke us all as hypocrites!

We don't make room in most of our churches for prophets and we don't operate in life and in our Body life as if Jesus Christ is REALLY and I mean REALLY alive today.

Instead we go and dutifully sit in our Sunday pews and hear about a Jesus who lived 2000 years ago oblivious to how in so many of our churches we LIVE as though He stayed back there 2000 years ago.

If we lay claim to Him as the LIVING Lord...well...where is He?

How does He manifest His LIVING presence in the church? Through a Sunday sermon!!???

That certainly wasn't the way He manifested His LIVING reality and presence in the New Testament church!!

Today we have what I call an intellectual belief. Of the head. It's all or for the most part about the head. About our intellect.

Doctrine and sermons and bible studies and concordances and lexicons and bible dictionaries, bible schools, and ministry pamphlets.

I want to see the LIVING Christ LIVE!! LIVE!!!

LIVE!

I don't want to just hear about Him or know about Him through some written material!!!!

If He truly does LIVE then it seems to me that He will do what He did through the New Testament Christians through us today!

Are we not His Body?

What DOES THAT MEAN but that He will do through us what He did when He was here in the flesh?

What kind of Body is it if He cannot?

Beats me.

Carlos

[gdemoss]

Carlos, thanks for bringing up this topic. You inspired me to do some deeper study. This topic is closely related to your other topic of church leadership as they both consist of the 'power' of God through the Holy Spirit whom gives gifts unto whomever he wills.

The word 'power' is an interesting study.

The KJV is translated in a few interesting ways:

power 77, mighty work 11, strength 7, miracle 7, might 4, virtue 3, mighty 2, misc 9

Everything begins with Jesus and he was given this power upon his baptism and he continued to use this power to do mighty works in the name of God telling everyone that it was God the Father who did the works through him. The power is and always has been of God who is Almighty.

One of the verses you keyed in on contains the word too but translated miracles.

Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles1411 and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know :

What I have been learning is that God is well pleased with those who act upon faith seeking to establish his kingdom here upon the earth. Although he has yet to heal through me or preform miracles by my hand, he has been giving power to my words as I minister to others. For a month or so I would minister to a man at work and then he would come back and tell me that God caused his preacher to preach on the topic I ministered unto him on. I have also seen more results from the prayers that I have been making. Things happening to people that I have been praying for to lead them to Christ or guide them to holiness.

I think the biggest obstacle we have in understanding exactly what is meant in the scriptures and who it applies too. We must make sure we fit the category of those spoken unto before thinking that what was said actually applies unto us. I have been working to identify each and every command of scripture to see if I am being obedient unto them and thus in line with Gods will for my life. But when all is said and done everything revolves around whether I really understand what God has said correctly and am able to make application of it all.

God assured me last Sunday that he was going to preform a work of deliverance upon me that would remove me from the bondage I am currently in as a servant by his mighty power. Part of the work was completed today as I understood some of the things blocking God from preforming the work and removing them. Israel had 'limited' the Holy One of Israel and kept him from being able to bless them. I am learning what the things look like that are in peoples lives that 'limit' Gods blessing and removing them from my life as well as helping others to do the same, although the work is Gods.

I believe in the end I will see many miracles, signs and wonders preformed by the hand of God for us his children. I have seen much but know there is so much more to be seen.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

[carlos123]

Thanks for sharing more Gary.

I am always eager and interested in hearing about how the Lord is working in the lives of others.

One thing you said that I don't quite fully understand is your statement "a work of deliverance upon me that would remove me from the bondage I am currently in as a servant by his mighty power.".

The part that is somewhat confusing is the part about the work of deliverance being to remove you from the bondage of being a servant (at least that is what it seems like you are saying) given that being a servant to others is...well...not something to be delivered from I don't think .

In any case I assume you meant that the Lord reassured you that He would do a work of deliverance in some area of your life which is great!

With respect to healing I find the following verse interesting...bolding is mine.

Acts 14:8 (AKJV)

And there sat a certain man at Lystra, weak in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked: The same heard Paul speak: who steadfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on your feet. And he leaped and walked.

As a further point to ponder...I wonder what it was that Paul saw in the man that allowed him to perceive that he had faith to be healed?

I have absolutely no clue as to what such faith looks like in a person or how to recognize it.

I am not asking you in particular Gary just throwing that out as an additional point to ponder is all.

Here is another one...bolding is mine.

Matthew 8:16 (AKJV)

When the even was come, they brought to him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.

When Jesus died did He not only pay for our sins but also take upon Himself our sicknesses such that we can claim healing today as readily as we claim forgiveness for sins??

That certainly seems to be what the above is saying.

Anybody else concur with that or have a different understanding of that verse?

Carlos

[Guest man]

How can I grow in faith.....

You're the only one who can answer that question.