Guest shiloh357 Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I never said God will heal 100% who come to him. I said it is Gods will that all be healed. Does Jesus save everyone who comes to Him for salvation? Or does Jesus refuse salvation to some who request it?? You said that God's will toward healing was the same as his will toward salvation. So, if God is willing to save everyone who comes to Him, by your own line of reasoning, He should heal all of those who come to Him for healing. That is the only way you can argue this and still be internally consistent. If they come as he has prescribed then they will be saved. If they come as prescribed they will be healed. Gary And healed 100% of the time? And what is the prescription for getting healed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
His_disciple3 Posted August 16, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 358 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 119 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 16, 2012 If it were Gods will for all to be healed who come to him then anyone who ever asked him to be healed would be regardless of any circumstance or condition. Anyone who ever prayed to him should instantly be healed. Though it be Gods will that all be healed, the fact remains that all who come to him for healing do not end up healed. Gary It is the will of God that all be saved. it is His will that all come to the knowledge of Christ, but will all be saved? I am thinking of the passage where that Jesus himself went into a town and scriptures says that He could only heal a few of the sick due to their unbelief. we can speak of A soveriegn God that will force His will on everyone, but scriptures does not teach this, If it was the will of God that David takes his eyes and heart off of God and turn them to bathseba? and to have Uriah Her husband to be kill at battle, then would God be just in punishing David, or should it be that if David was doing the Will of God then He should have been rewarded. If it is the will of God that some burn in hell then They would be serving God by not believeing in the Son. If a sinner sins then according to your belief, then God caused or even made that sinner sin, then according to your belief, please do tell us who should get punished, the one who sinned or the one who made him sin. or both? If the will of God is enforced when someone sins then are they sinners or servants of God? By your reply I believe you don't understand what I was trying to convey. I fail to understand how the things you say here related to what I have said. Gary you said that if it were the will of God for all that came to Him to be healed that all would be healed, but scriptures teaches that healing and salvation comes by faith, it could be the Will of God that all be saved as scriptures teaches but not all will be saved. as well as all will not be healed, because of teachings like your statement, many come to God, "God If it is your will, then I want to be healed, that's very close to saying God if You could heal me then I want to be healed. there is no room for "IF" when faith is involved. If a person comes to God and says "God if it is your will to save me please save me" will they be saved. Or even if they are saved how will they know that it was The will of God to save them. at the healing pool in scriptures was not left up to the ability of God to heal. but rather left up to the person to step into the pool to be healed, Yes, I was right. You misunderstand what I was saying. I did not word it in a way that was acceptable to you but yet I believe we mean the same thing. There is a big IF in there. God does will that all who come to him would be healed as he wills that every single person on the planet be both saved and healed. The reason they are not and will not is because of the IF you mention. There is a proper way to come to God and all the IF's must be adhered too. Gary well then Amen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted August 16, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I never said God will heal 100% who come to him. I said it is Gods will that all be healed. Does Jesus save everyone who comes to Him for salvation? Or does Jesus refuse salvation to some who request it?? You said that God's will toward healing was the same as his will toward salvation. So, if God is willing to save everyone who comes to Him, by your own line of reasoning, He should heal all of those who come to Him for healing. That is the only way you can argue this and still be internally consistent. If they come as he has prescribed then they will be saved. If they come as prescribed they will be healed. Gary And healed 100% of the time? And what is the prescription for getting healed? They are actually the same in nature. One must believe God and have it accounted to him for righteousness to be saved. One must believe God and do that which he tells them to do to be healed. Though ultimately salvation only has one true underlying empowerment which is the blood of Christ, God has varied his methods given for healing. I gave one example earlier. Another would be to have someone who has the gift of healing to lay hands on you. I don't think in necessary to go through the whole of scripture and give every path to healing that God has laid out, but there are still others. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeannieC Posted August 17, 2012 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 9 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 96 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 27 Days Won: 1 Joined: 08/04/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/21/1970 Share Posted August 17, 2012 He gave them authority to heal just as He Himself did. He passed the bread and the fish through their hands to teach them to do what He could do by faith. How is that explained by the thought that the healings were ONLY about showing us who Jesus was (I say ONLY in that some Christians believe that)? What did Jesus mean when He said that as the Father sent Him so He sent the disciples and that greater works than those that He did we will do because He goes to the Father to intercede on our behalf? Also, what do you think John 9:3-4 means?"Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." It seems to mean this man was born blind for the purpose of being a example of God's work through his healing power being shown to all. I don't understand verse 4 though. The full quote is as follows... John 9:1 (AKJV) And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither has this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night comes, when no man can work. As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. Here is my take on these verses... Sickness in anybody does NOT mean that someone is sinning and that through their sinning God has brought sickness into their life. In the case of the blind man above he was blind so that God could be glorified through Jesus healing him (there wouldn't have been much of any glory to God if Jesus had left him blind!). That last part is interesting. That Jesus felt a need to work, as in heal people for example, while it is day. That night was coming when no man could work. Now off the bat that verse seems to say that when Jesus, who is the Light of this world, leaves that no man will be able to do what Jesus did. But that CAN'T be what it says. Why? Look at what happened in Acts AFTER Jesus left. Acts 3:1 (AKJV) Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. And Peter, fastening his eyes on him with John, said, Look on us. And he gave heed to them, expecting to receive something of them. Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. Peter and John and Philip and Paul for that matter were able to continue doing what Jesus had done in healing the sick. So we can be certain that what Jesus said about no man being able to do the works He did when darkness comes did NOT refer to the time period after He died and went to heaven. For the disciples continued to do the works that He did AFTER He left! The other consideration is that Jesus as the Light of the world now resides in...His Body! In that sense He has never left! Incidentally Jeannie there are EXCELLENT tools online to help. The Blue Letter bible is one of my favorite -> http://www.blueletterbible.org/ Bible Gateway has lots of different translations and great verse lookup -> http://www.biblegateway.com/ The Parallel Bible is also useful when you want to compare different translations of a verse -> http://bible.cc/ I personally use a local program under Linux called Xiphos which has public domain copies of various translations based on the King James. I use that to copy and paste large pieces of verses where I don't need to concern myself with the copyrights on God's Word (an oxymoron if there ever was one respecting how one can copyright such a thing). Hope that helps. Carlos Those links to the tools are very helpful. Thank you for sharing them. I also thank you for your thoughts on John 9:3-4. As for your question to me "What did Jesus mean when He said that as the Father sent Him so He sent the disciples and that greater works than those that He did we will do because He goes to the Father to intercede on our behalf? " I have not studied this yet for myself but from my former church, understood Jesus to be referring to the gift of the Holy Spirit. I am unable to say for certain. I wish that I could answer better but it is obvious to me that I require more prayer and study. I can see now that I haven't enough experience rightly dividing the word of truth to contribute more to this thread. I will spend more time with milk and work my way up to the meat. I will continue to follow the discussion though and appreciate your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 17, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 No problem Jeannie. May the Lord give you great insight to understand His perspective on all this. Incidentally you may feel that you don't have much to contribute but if I may say so...your heart of desire to seek the Lord for what He might think on this is a wonderful example (to me if not to others as well). We should all approach this subject with the humility that you are bringing to it. That alone is worth more than a lot of words that have been said on this thread. Including some of mine. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nChrist Posted August 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 438 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 2,947 Content Per Day: 0.54 Reputation: 300 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/28/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/18/1949 Share Posted August 17, 2012 gdemoss Thou shalt not bear false witness. I never said God will heal 100% who come to him. I said it is Gods will that all be healed. You add to scripture and cannot yourself prove your own claims that something must be understood as unto a whole nation and doesn't mean that they will all be healed if all obey and then misunderstand me when I make a statement. Now my statements could be poorly worded, that I will give you but Gods are not. Gary IF it was God's Will that all be healed - ALL WOULD BE HEALED. Not all - not even most - are healed - so it wasn't God's Will that they be healed. Real simple. You know, I probably agree with you but you don't understand what I am saying because your getting hung up on the different ways we are saying the same thing. You think I am saying something I am not. I believe you and I actually agree. Except it be for the part where you say that all Christians get sick and die. This is an error for obvious reasons. Though all Christians die, not all die from sickness but I understand your basic premise and agree with you. I think you are missing the point that I am making. It is Gods will for all to be healed but most do not live in a way or come into circumstances that make it righteous for him to do so. Gary I'm not missing the point at all unless you want to tell me where all those 2,000 year-old Christians are. The truth is that they all got sick and died, so according to you, 100% do not live in a way or come into circumstances that make it righteous for him to do so. Not ONE has ever succeeded in 2,000 years, so the failure rate is 100% any way you look at it. To say otherwise would be silly. I understand exactly what you're saying - it's just WRONG what you're saying. Now you're probably wanting to split hairs and say that some Christians die from war, car accidents, etc. Those who don't die from unnatural causes get sick and eventually die at the rate of 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I never said God will heal 100% who come to him. I said it is Gods will that all be healed. Does Jesus save everyone who comes to Him for salvation? Or does Jesus refuse salvation to some who request it?? You said that God's will toward healing was the same as his will toward salvation. So, if God is willing to save everyone who comes to Him, by your own line of reasoning, He should heal all of those who come to Him for healing. That is the only way you can argue this and still be internally consistent. If they come as he has prescribed then they will be saved. If they come as prescribed they will be healed. Gary And healed 100% of the time? And what is the prescription for getting healed? They are actually the same in nature. One must believe God and have it accounted to him for righteousness to be saved. One must believe God and do that which he tells them to do to be healed. Though ultimately salvation only has one true underlying empowerment which is the blood of Christ, God has varied his methods given for healing. I gave one example earlier. Another would be to have someone who has the gift of healing to lay hands on you. I don't think in necessary to go through the whole of scripture and give every path to healing that God has laid out, but there are still others. Gary Again though, in order to know that, you should be able to produce a promise from God that says it is His will to heal everyone. That is the problem. You make claims that you cannot produce any Scripture for in terms of a direct promise from God or statement delcaring God's will on the matter. You say that God's will to heal is the same as as will to save, but you provide nothing from Scripture that says that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 17, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 I'm not missing the point at all unless you want to tell me where all those 2,000 year-old Christians are. The truth is that they all got sick and died, so according to you, 100% I beg to differ with you about missing the point nChrist. You are lumping together people who die, which will happen to ALL of us, with the idea of people being healed. In other words your argument is that because ALL die that it could not possibly be God's will that ALL be healed. Man is appointed to only live so long after which comes death. He is not appointed to live forever in the natural. But that has nothing to do with the subject of healing other than that people who are healed will obviously live a bit longer, relatively speaking, than those who are not but ALL will still die. The fact that ALL the people that Jesus healed still died did NOT keep Jesus Christ from healing ALL who came to Him for healing. The two are separate issues nChrist. You cannot use the one, that ALL will die, to discount the possibility that it is God's WILL as seen in Jesus to heal ALL. Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlos123 Posted August 17, 2012 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 61 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,015 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 97 Days Won: 4 Joined: 07/12/2004 Status: Offline Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Again though, in order to know that, you should be able to produce a promise from God that says it is His will to heal everyone. That is the problem. You make claims that you cannot produce any Scripture for in terms of a direct promise from God or statement delcaring God's will on the matter. You say that God's will to heal is the same as as will to save, but you provide nothing from Scripture that says that. I'll ask again Shiloh since you either missed my previous questions in this regard or are ignoring my question...what do you think James 5 is talking about? Is that a promise by which God promises to heal ALL who fulfill it's conditions? That is to say that anyone who calls for the elders of the church, is anointed with oil, and where a prayer of faith is said for their healing WILL be healed? Secondly, and again you seem to be ignoring this...was what Jesus did in healing ALL a reflection of God's WILL? If that was so then are there any Scriptural grounds for believing that God's WILL in the matter has changed? Carlos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdemoss Posted August 17, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 59 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,402 Content Per Day: 0.98 Reputation: 2,154 Days Won: 28 Joined: 02/10/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/26/1971 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I never said God will heal 100% who come to him. I said it is Gods will that all be healed. Does Jesus save everyone who comes to Him for salvation? Or does Jesus refuse salvation to some who request it?? You said that God's will toward healing was the same as his will toward salvation. So, if God is willing to save everyone who comes to Him, by your own line of reasoning, He should heal all of those who come to Him for healing. That is the only way you can argue this and still be internally consistent. If they come as he has prescribed then they will be saved. If they come as prescribed they will be healed. Gary And healed 100% of the time? And what is the prescription for getting healed? They are actually the same in nature. One must believe God and have it accounted to him for righteousness to be saved. One must believe God and do that which he tells them to do to be healed. Though ultimately salvation only has one true underlying empowerment which is the blood of Christ, God has varied his methods given for healing. I gave one example earlier. Another would be to have someone who has the gift of healing to lay hands on you. I don't think in necessary to go through the whole of scripture and give every path to healing that God has laid out, but there are still others. Gary Again though, in order to know that, you should be able to produce a promise from God that says it is His will to heal everyone. That is the problem. You make claims that you cannot produce any Scripture for in terms of a direct promise from God or statement delcaring God's will on the matter. You say that God's will to heal is the same as as will to save, but you provide nothing from Scripture that says that. Your right, I cannot give you a 'proof' text that says exactly what you want to hear. Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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