Tyler John Posted October 4, 2012 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 50 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thanks for all your thoughts. I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. As Gary says, I can see both sides of the issue, or perhaps more than two sides! Leaf's introduction of the word terminology is a great help. I wish I'd used it in my original post - much clearer concept than my clumsy efforts. Selene - I totally agree with what you say about coming to recognise the three persons of Yahweh, but when Daniel says 'the Holy Trinity is Fact', it brings me back to the issue of what scripture actually says. It does not say that the Trinity is fact; it never actually refers to 'the Trinity', although there are many texts that point that way. (I don't agree that references to 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' are in themselves evidence of the concept of a Trinity, any more than, for instance, referring to 'police, firefighters and para-medics' points to a unified emergency service. Such references, however, do support the concept.) I guess that the underlying concern in my original post was the issue of how we use scripture. Even though I believe the concept of a triune God is it right to suggest that the bible actually states this to be the case? If I may put forward a clearly crazy comparison? - there is more direct evidence in the NT that the concept of slavery is acceptable than of the concept of the Trinity. Yet, I would certainly not try to claim that the NT makes the acceptability of slavery a fact! We seem sometimes to pick and choose our doctrines and then use the bible to confer acceptability, rather than read what the bible actually says and then decide our doctrines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler John Posted October 4, 2012 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 50 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2012 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 4, 2012 Thanks for all your thoughts. I really appreciate the thoughtful replies. As Gary says, I can see both sides of the issue, or perhaps more than two sides! Leaf's introduction of the word terminology is a great help. I wish I'd used it in my original post - much clearer concept than my clumsy efforts. Selene - I totally agree with what you say about coming to recognise the three persons of Yahweh, but when Daniel says 'the Holy Trinity is Fact', it brings me back to the issue of what scripture actually says. It does not say that the Trinity is fact; it never actually refers to 'the Trinity', although there are many texts that point that way. (I don't agree that references to 'Father, Son and Holy Spirit' are in themselves evidence of the concept of a Trinity, any more than, for instance, referring to 'police, firefighters and para-medics' points to a unified emergency service. Such references, however, do support the concept.) I guess that the underlying concern in my original post was the issue of how we use scripture. Even though I believe the concept of a triune God is it right to suggest that the bible actually states this to be the case? If I may put forward a clearly crazy comparison? - there is more direct evidence in the NT that the concept of slavery is acceptable than of the concept of the Trinity. Yet, I would certainly not try to claim that the NT makes the acceptability of slavery a fact! We seem sometimes to pick and choose our doctrines and then use the bible to confer acceptability, rather than read what the bible actually says and then decide our doctrines. If I am not mistaken, I think what Danielzk is saying is that the Trinity is the Truth. It is difficult to explain the Holy Trinity, but even the Old Testament say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one. Isaiah 9:6 For there is a child born for us, a Son given to us and dominion is laid on His shoulders; and this is the name they give him: Wonder-Counsellor, Mighty-God, Eternal-Father, Prince of Peace. The Holy Spirit has been called the "Counsellor" in the New Testament, so He is a person in the Holy Trinity. Sometimes, in today's society we need to define certain things as Christian doctrines. For example, I once got into a debate with a poster who stated that "homosexuality" is not in the Bible and therefore should not be a sin. He is correct that the word "homosexuality" is not in the Bible. The word "homosexuality" is a modern word, but the Bible does show that having relations with persons of the same sex is immoral. He twisted the biblical scripture in Leviticus where it stated that a man should not lie with another man as though he was a woman to support his case for homosexuality. What you say about the use of the actual word 'homosexuality' makes a very good point, which I completely accept. I think I got a bit worked up in my initial post about the use of specific words, rather than focusing on wher terminology fits into the great scheme of things. Well done, you guys, for putting me right! I am not quite so convinced by what you say concerning the Trinity! The quotation from Isaiah is not a direct reference to the Trinity and, in fact, offers four, not three, facets. Your example of someone twisting scriptural texts to confirm their own viewpoint is precisely what I am talking about in my final paragraph. The issue is that we almost all seem to do it. Perhaps we should make less use of individual quotations and pay more attention to the overall message of scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC Posted October 4, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,795 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 1,502 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/25/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1952 Share Posted October 4, 2012 I really don't have a problem with the concept of 3 being only one God. I likened it to the United States Congress. We have 1 federal Congress in this country, but that one Congress is made up of many members. God is like this. He is One God but He has 3 members we know of. But they are as one. As some of you also said, these doctrines are not what's important. What is important is the relationship each of has with God. Some people need doctrines because they're too high spirited. They need doctrines to bring their human side down to a level where they can feel God. Because when we think how high and mighty we are, we lose God. So I can see this is where we need doctrines. But once you know God, then you need to learn how He wants us to be. I think the Bible is very clear about this. The attributes of God and of a Godly person are discussed throughout the whole Bible. For me it's those attributes that are most important to know and practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2012 As some of you also said, these doctrines are not what's important. What is important is the relationship each of has with God. Some people need doctrines because they're too high spirited. They need doctrines to bring their human side down to a level where they can feel God. Because when we think how high and mighty we are, we lose God. So I can see this is where we need doctrines. But once you know God, then you need to learn how He wants us to be. I think the Bible is very clear about this. The attributes of God and of a Godly person are discussed throughout the whole Bible. For me it's those attributes that are most important to know and practice. Now do you say this while believing that the doctrine of the Trinity is biblical or do you not see it as not Biblical? The problem is that believing willy nilly, as in 'oh hey...just believe...you don't need that old doctrine stuff...it's just going to turn you into a Pharisee anyway', results in any number of sects, cults and bad teaching. Doctrine is the foundation of Christian belief. Believing that God sent Jesus to die in our place is doctrine So before people go throwing it all out while touting only religious people and high spirited people NEED doctrine, understand that without it, you (generic you) would not know WHAT to believe If you (generic) sat down with your Bible do you suppose you could understand it or do you sit down with your Bible and understand it better BECAUSE you have a base of knowledge called DOCTRINE Listen, Doctrine is NOT a dirty word people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2012 Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system The Bible is not a collection of sayings to be interpreted any way it suits someone. In fact, that is the basis of liberal theology today I really give pause when I read a post that says God told me it doesn't matter and just not to worry about it Sorry, I see that as rubbish and not God speaking at all Most of the New Testament was written to correct error. Now why would you have to correct error if it's all good? If you do not accept the basic tenets of Christianity, then you do not accept Christianity Rob Bell had a problem with that. Now, thousands are being told not to worry, there is no hell and God would never send people to hell Are you going to agree with that? Paul said this: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Gal. 1:8 That's doctrine folks...so do you really believe that God comes along and states it doesn't matter as long as you believe? Believe what exactly? The alternative is seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Doctrines of devils. The devil knows about doctrine and he would love you to leave all that doctrine baggage behind. It's just too heavy...all that stuff to remember... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,436 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,581 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Doctrine (from Latin: doctrina) is a codification of beliefs or a body of teachings or instructions, taught principles or positions, as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system The Bible is not a collection of sayings to be interpreted any way it suits someone. In fact, that is the basis of liberal theology today I really give pause when I read a post that says God told me it doesn't matter and just not to worry about it Sorry, I see that as rubbish and not God speaking at all Most of the New Testament was written to correct error. Now why would you have to correct error if it's all good? If you do not accept the basic tenets of Christianity, then you do not accept Christianity Rob Bell had a problem with that. Now, thousands are being told not to worry, there is no hell and God would never send people to hell Are you going to agree with that? Paul said this: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! Gal. 1:8 That's doctrine folks...so do you really believe that God comes along and states it doesn't matter as long as you believe? Believe what exactly? The alternative is seducing spirits and doctrines of devils. Doctrines of devils. The devil knows about doctrine and he would love you to leave all that doctrine baggage behind. It's just too heavy...all that stuff to remember... Isa 28:9-13 9 "Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little." 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people, 12 To whom He said, "This is the rest with which You may cause the weary to rest," And, "This is the refreshing"; Yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was to them, "Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little," That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught. NKJV This the OT equivalent to 2 Ti 2:15-17 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. NKJV It's the teaching... Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2012 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Wow...I just read this passage in another thread and I thought that would have been good to include in my post and here it is...coincidence? don't think so!!! God's Word does not return to Him void...!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTC Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 200 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 2,795 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 1,502 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/25/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/26/1952 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Seven, I don't mean doctrines aren't important at all. I mean they are less important than doing the will of God. And just to keep this simple, let's consider doing the will of God to be following what Jesus said was the 2 most important commandments. To love God and to love each other. So this then is what I have seen happens to the Christian community as a whole. Due to differences in doctrine, Christians start to fight and get angry at each other. They seem to totally forget we're all worshiping the same God. One denomination says you must believe abc to be saved, and another says you have to believe xyz to be saved. It then gets worse when each denomination says "only we are saved, and the rest of you worship the Lord in vain". The problem is there are so very many different denominations and church groups all saying this same thing. Are they showing love for each other as our Lord commanded us to do? No, not at that point. They're too much feeling angry and prideful. So this is why I said doctrines don't matter. All I mean is they are less important than obeying the 2 most important commandments that Jesus gave us. If the different denominations could have their different doctrines without getting angry and prideful at their fellow Christian, then fine. But I don't see many who can do that. I finally learned to do that. I finally realized that which doctrines a person believes are much less important than if they are obeying those 2 greatest commandments that Jesus gave us. Therefore, I don't try to get anyone to believe what I believe. I only say obey what Jesus said was the 2 most important commands. If we all do this, I think we will all be doing well, and much better than we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2012 Seven, I don't mean doctrines aren't important at all. I mean they are less important than doing the will of God. And just to keep this simple, let's consider doing the will of God to be following what Jesus said was the 2 most important commandments. To love God and to love each other. Do you think that pointing out how important doctrine really is, means I don't love other Christians? It's just the OPPOSITE!!! I do it because I love the brethren and don't want them becoming apostate believing every wind of doctrine There is no difference in doctrine...you either accept it or not. Variations of doctrine, as in the Trinity does not exist, or Jesus did not rise bodily from the grave are not differences in doctrine. That, is heresy. Christianity has its doctrine all sorted out yet many now seem to think it needs an overhaul. Really? Where shall we get the new beliefs from? Love is not soothing people who are sinking in sin and love is not saying that as long as you believe some vague something it is OK That, is liberal theology and you cannot love as Christ loves UNLESS you understand who He is and what He has done That, is doctrine. Love is not a feeling. Love, is ACTION AND DECISION. It is not wishy washy and better the wounds of a friend that the kiss of Judas. I mentioned Rob Bell. Do you know who he is? He states that God loves so much He would NEVER send anyone to hell And he has thousands and thousands of devoted followers. THAT is not in the Bible Do you see what love from a human understanding does? It corrupts the truth and sends all those loving people to hell God does not have two standards. He has but one. Does the verse I quoted from Paul mean nothing to you? There is only ONE gospel and ONE truth. Those are not my words. People need to study the Word of God and stop reading stupid books by apostate followers of a false gospel God has NOT told anyone that the Trinity is a take it or leave doctrine. That, is a seducing spirit talking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevenseas Posted October 5, 2012 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,373 Content Per Day: 0.76 Reputation: 683 Days Won: 22 Joined: 02/28/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 5, 2012 The problem is there are so very many different denominations and church groups all saying this same thing. Are they showing love for each other as our Lord commanded us to do? No, not at that point. They're too much feeling angry and prideful. Well maybe everyone should stick to the truth then and stop spreading false doctrine The Bible declares God as three persons. IMO, all this talk of love love love is just an excuse to accept sin. The love of God does not accept sin. So, should we be concerned about people's salvation or should we just buy 'em a Starbuck's gift card and say 'I love you man...' God, sent thousands of people to death, including children, at the hands of the Israelites. God has not changed. He hates sin and does not accept it. Is that love? You know, there are many Christians who don't like to be reminded of that. They consider the fact that God is Holy just another four letter word We are not to bring down God to our level of understanding. His Words lift us up to a higher level of understanding In case I have not made myself clear , God does not accept our polluted offerings of love. He already gave us His best love and it was perfect and without sin God says to be holy because He is holy. What does that mean to you? I'll tell you what it does not mean... it does not mean God understands and just accepts our corrupted idea of love because it makes us feel gooshy and gives us goosebumps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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