'forgive us of our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us&#3

[freeinnocentspirit]

Question - What if I am totally unable to do this? Does it mean I'm less of a good christian?

A few weeks ago possibly a month ago I was in a sheer moment of stress and ended up having to turn to all my lovely brothers and sisters here for advice. Well yes my life did spiral out of control suddenly and this was caused by a family member doing a disappearing act. However with the help of God I haven't completely gone nuts.

If one specific person causes a whole range of people intense stress and ultimately causes them to become sick due to the stress they have caused, does this forgiveness rule apply?

Am I wrong to take things literally to the point where I am over thinking things through?

[BFP]

It means exactly what it says...God will only forgive you as much as you will forgive others. Think on it a while...salvation is about God forgiving us our sins.

I know several people who turn their whole families upside down on a regular basis...one of them is very close to me. I forgive them, but avoid them, simple as that. There is freedom in forgiveness

[freeinnocentspirit]

thanks, Im sort of stuck in a negative trap so speak. When my family gets together we all now sit and talk about how hurt we are but this one character and each time the conclusion is we did the forgive and forget method but she just kept on with the antics. Maybe assertiveness is the key!

[Jayyycuuup]

Mathew 18:21-22

Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive Him? Up to seventy times? Jesus said to him "I do not say to you, up to seven time, but up to seventy times seven."

[Littlelambseativy]

Perhaps this person needs prayer -not just forgiveness. The forgiveness is not for the person as much as it is liberating for you. As long as you do not forgive - you own the problem and it wears you down. The minute you forgive and turn it over to Christ He bears the burden not you. Yes, forgive and pray for the person. Forgiveness is for your mental well being the other person is not bothered by the problem you are.

[enoob57]

Forgiveness of all wrongs committed by other to ones self is a deathblow to a hard heart...

But a continuing of filling love in its place within that void is a relationship with God in nearness

never achieved any other way! It is like people when in extreme situations are tested cruelly they

bond in ways like no other... so the understanding of why He wishes us to enter into this with Him

Php 3:10-11

10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings,

being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

NKJV

It is The Doorway is it not? To love no matter what came against Him. As my heart rests in this place

I beg Him the strength to so completely die to myself as though through a fire burning all that is not

of Him away-> entering into His Presence! Love, Steven

[OldShep]

Hmmm....I contend, that if God really forgave us, like we forgive others...then Heaven would be empty.

Jesus, died for our sins, all of them, He knows the heart of those who have been so hurt bad that the memories are carried with them like millstones around their neck. We have to go to Christ and ask for, forgiveness, and He assures us that He is faithful and Kind to forgive us of those sins.

I was sent this a while back not sure who it was from it may help:

The Teaching of Christ

Christ taught that forgiveness is a duty. No limit can be set to the extent of forgiveness (Luk_17:4) and it must be granted without reserve. Jesus will not admit that there is any wrong so gross nor so often repeated that it is beyond forgiveness. To Him an unforgiving spirit is one of the most heinous of sins (Bruce, Parabolic Teaching, 376ff). This is the offense which God will not forgive (Mat_18:34, Mat_18:35). It is the very essence of the unpardonable sin (Mar_3:22-30). It was the one blemish of the elder son which marred an otherwise irreproachable life (Luk_15:28-30). This natural, pagan spirit of implacability Jesus sought to displace by a generous, forgiving spirit. It is so far the essence of His teaching that in popular language “a Christian spirit” is not inappropriately y understood to be synonymous with a forgiving disposition. His answer to Peter that one should forgive not merely seven times in a day, but seventy times seven (Mat_18:21, Mat_18:22), not only shows that He thought of no limit to one's forgiveness, but that the principle could not be reduced to a definite formula.

Conditions of Forgiveness

Jesus recognized that there are conditions to be fulfilled before forgiveness can be granted. Forgiveness is part of a mutual relationship; the other part is the repentance of the offender. God does not forgive without repentance, nor is it required of man. The effect of forgiveness is to restore to its former state the relationship which was broken by sin. Such a restoration requires the cooperation of both parties. There must be both a granting and an acceptance of the forgiveness. Sincere, deep-felt sorrow for the wrong which works repentance (2Co_7:10) is the condition of mind which insures the acceptance of the forgiveness. Hence, Jesus commands forgiveness when the offender turns again, saying, “I repent” (Luk_17:3, Luk_17:1). It was this state of mind which led the father joyfully to welcome the Prodigal before he even gave utterance to his newly formed purpose (Luk_15:21).

The Offended Party

It is not to be supposed, however, that failure to repent upon the part of the offender releases the offended from all obligation to extend forgiveness. Without the repentance of the one who has wronged him he can have a forgiving state of mind. This Jesus requires, as is implied by, “if ye forgive not every one his brother from your hearts” (Mat_18:35). It is also implied by the past tense in the Lord's Prayer: “as we also have forgiven our debtors” (Mat_6:12). It is this forgiving spirit which conditions God's forgiveness of our sins (Mar_11:25; Mat_6:14, Mat_6:15). In such a case the unforgiving spirit is essentially un-repentance (Mat_18:23-35). “Of all acts, is not, for a man, repentance the most Divine?”

The offended is to go even farther and is to seek to bring the wrongdoer to repentance. This is the purpose of the reprimand commanded in Luk_17:3. More explicitly Jesus says, “If thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone” (Mat_18:15-17). He is to carry his pursuit to the point of making every reasonable effort to win the wrongdoer, and only when he has exhausted every effort may he abandon it. The object is the gaining of his brother. Only when this is evidently unattainable is all effort to cease.

The power of binding and loosing, which means forbidding and allowing, was granted to Peter (Mat_16:19) and to the Christian community (Mat_18:18; Joh_20:23). It clearly implies the possession of the power to forgive sins. In the case of Peter's power it was exercised when he used the keys of the kingdom of heaven (Mat_16:19). This consisted in the proclamation of the gospel and especially of the conditions upon which men might enter into relationship with God (Act_2:38; Act_10:34). It was not limited to Peter only, but was shared by the other apostles (Mat_16:19; Mat_18:18). Christ left no fixed rules the observance or non-observance of which would determine whether one is or is not in the kingdom of God. He gave to His disciples principles, and in the application of these principles to the problems of life there had to be the exercise of discriminating judgment. The exercise of this judgment was left to the Christian community (2Co_2:10). It is limited by the principles which are the basis of the kingdom, but within these principles the voice of the community is supreme. The forgiveness here implied is not the pronouncing of absolution for the sins of individuals, but the determination of courses of conduct and worship which will be acceptable. In doing this its decisions will be ratified in heaven (Westcott on Joh_20:23).

That there is a close analogy between human and Divine forgiveness is clearly implied (Mat_5:23, Mat_5:14; Mat_6:12; Mar_11:25; Luk_6:37; Col_1:14; Col_3:13). God's forgiveness is conditional upon man's forgiveness of the wrongs done him, not because God forgives grudgingly but because forgiveness alone indicates that disposition of mind which will humbly accept the Divine pardon.

Divine and Human Forgiveness

Repentance is a necessary ingredient of the fully developed forgiveness. There is no essential difference between the human and the Divine pardon, though the latter is necessarily more complete. It results in the complete removal of all estrangement and alienation between God and man. It restores completely the relationship which existed prior to the sin. The total removal of the sin as a result of the Divine forgiveness is variously expressed in the Scriptures: “Thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back” (Isa_38:17); “Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea” (Mic_7:19); “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more” (Jer_31:34); “I, even I, am he that blotted out thy transgressions” (Isa_43:25); “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us” (Psa_103:12). Ideally this same result is attained in human forgiveness, but actually the memory of the sin remains with both parties as a barrier between them, and even when there is a complete restoration of amity the former state of alienation cannot entirely be removed from memory. When God forgives, however, He restores man to the condition of former favor. Release from punishment is involved, though Divine forgiveness is more than this. In most cases the consequences, which in some instances are spoken of as punishment, are not removed, but they lose all penal character and become disciplinary. Nor does the forgiveness remove from human mind the consciousness of sin and the guilt which that involved, but it does remove the mistrust which was the ground of the alienation. Mistrust is changed into trust, and this produces peace of mind (Psa_32:5-7; Rom_5:1); consciousness of the Divine love and mercy (Psa_103:2); removes fear of punishment (2Sa_12:13); and awakens love to God.

Limitations of Forgiveness

Two passages seem to limit God's forgiveness. They are Christ's discussion of the unpardonable sin (Mat_12:31, Mat_12:32; Mar_3:28-30; Luk_12:10), and the one which mentions the sin unto death (1Jo_5:16; compare Heb_6:4-6). In the former passage there is mentioned a sin which has no forgiveness, and in the latter, one on behalf of which the apostle cannot enjoin prayer that it be forgiven, though he does not prohibit it. In both cases the sin is excluded from the customary forgiveness which is extended to sins of all other classes.

The act of the Pharisees which led Jesus to speak of the unpardonable sin was the attributing of a good deed wrought by Him through the Spirit of God (Mat_12:28) to Beelzebub. No one could do such a thing unless his moral nature was completely warped. To such a person the fundamental distinctions between good and evil were obliterated. No ordinary appeal could reach him, for to him good seemed evil and evil seemed good. The possibility of winning him back is practically gone; hence, he is beyond the hope of forgiveness, not because God has set an arbitrary line of sinfulness, beyond which His grace of forgiveness will not reach, but because the man has put himself beyond the possibility of attaining to that state of mind which is the essential condition of Divine forgiveness. It is practically certain that John did not have any particular sinful act in mind when he spoke of the sin which is unto death. See BLASPHEMY.

There is no possible way of determining what specific sin, if any, he refers to. Probably the same principle applies in this case as in that of the unpardonable sin. God's forgiveness is limited solely by the condition that man must accept it in the proper spirit.

There are some passages which seem to imply that forgiveness was the principal Messianic task. This is suggested by the name given to the Messiah during His earthly career (Mat_1:21), and by the fact that He was the Savior. The remission of sins was the preparation for the advent of the Messiah (Luk_1:77), and repentance and remission of sins were the prerequisites to a state of preparation for the kingdom.

ICL~~~~Dennis

[nChrist]

Amen and Amen! - Beautiful thread and great advice. You and your family will be in my prayers. May God give you peace like only He can give.

[freeinnocentspirit]

Firstly thank you all so much for your kind words of wisdom. I never intended insult tp anyone by questioning the Lords Prayer and although I am having a rough year and lets say my stress levels are dangerously high, I have never not once questioned my trust and faith in God. As much as my family has fallen apart this year its made us all sit back and question our values and faith. Also its interesting to see how much the power of one negative person has tested us all to the extreme, well how one person who is so full of hate has totally a medium sized family all stressed out to ill health.

Its funny how the saying 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' keeps coming to my mind. Through all of this I can honestly say that maybe this is all a part of my process to becoming a better christian and having total faith, otherwise why is the most unthinkable junk happening to me?

[enoob57]

Firstly thank you all so much for your kind words of wisdom. I never intended insult tp anyone by questioning the Lords Prayer and although I am having a rough year and lets say my stress levels are dangerously high, I have never not once questioned my trust and faith in God. As much as my family has fallen apart this year its made us all sit back and question our values and faith. Also its interesting to see how much the power of one negative person has tested us all to the extreme, well how one person who is so full of hate has totally a medium sized family all stressed out to ill health.

Its funny how the saying 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger' keeps coming to my mind. Through all of this I can honestly say that maybe this is all a part of my process to becoming a better christian and having total faith, otherwise why is the most unthinkable junk happening to me?

Our Father is a jealous God and wants to be your everything! It is an incredible journey and none of us have arrived... Learn to

love the increase of Him and it will motivate to do whatever to gain even more of this intimacy He offers within! The most incredible growth

process- where we shrink here and grow where were not yet at Love, Steven