New City Jerusalem

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, John Robinson.

I for one don't care if it's a cube, pyramid, tetrahedron, or a Moebius strip. God made it for us, and I'm sure it'll be beyond anything our minds can comprehend.

In its totality, undoubtedly it will be incomprehensible; however, we can get a glimpse of what it will look like in a very general way since Yochanan's description is very general. Just the same, there are contextual clues that most miss. I choose to focus on those clues, because as tangible and as concrete as you can make it in your mind's eye, the better will be your confidence in its reality. I believe that people need to be able to visualize the city and the New Earth to increase their faith.

See, many people do not read Hebrews 11:1 correctly, and this is largely due to the way other versions render the verse.

Hebrews 11:1

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

KJV

Many hear this verse and think that faith is about the things we hope for and the things we can't see, but that is not what the verse says! Those are details in the prepositional phrases that describe the faith, but the faith itself is said to be substance and evidence! What "substance?" What "evidence?" Well, the rest of the chapter is the "evidence!" And the Holy Scriptures themselves is the "substance!" We don't have an "I hope so" kind of faith; we have an "I know so" kind of faith! Faith in God is not difficult to have, but it will always tend to elude those who don't know its nature and continue to focus on the "faith" part! If one truly wants to increase one's faith in God, the answer is simple: Get to know God! The more one understands the character of the God who can do the impossible and who truly loves His children, the easier it will be to trust Him, to have faith in Him!

It's the same thing with what to expect in our future. The more concrete our understanding of what to expect, the more likely it will be real for us and the better we'll be able to witness to others.

[Bader]

Shalom, other one.

Well, the New Jerusalem is not a small thing.... It appears by the description to be a cube or pyramid that has a 1,500 mile square base and is the same hight. So if it lands on the place of the old city of Jerusalem it will squish anything The size of it will cover Egypt, Sudan, the entire Saudi Arabian peninsula, Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Israel area.

I think the old earth and Jerusalem have passed away. And we have a new earth and this really huge city.

And, don't forget half of Turkey! (I think you should shift the landing zone north a little so that the center of the New Jerusalem would be at the coordinates for the Old Jerusalem, particularly the Old City.)

I've done the math, btw, and a cube won't do. If it has a simple shape at all, it would have to be the pyramid. At 1,500 miles across the middle of the city from the center gate on one side of the city to the center gate on the opposite side of the city, that would be 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles * 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees of the earth's circumference (assuming the New Earth will have similar dimensions to this present earth). That means comparing the center gate on one side of the city to the center gate on the opposite side of the city, the direction for "down" would be different by that 21.685 degrees! If it were a true cube, then the cube would not look like a cube at all from a position just outside one of those two gates! Both walls of the city would slant in by 21.685 / 2 = 10.8425 degrees from perpendicular! The walls of the "cube" would not be plumb! The pyramid idea works better. You still have the walls slanting in by that 10.8425 degrees, but a pyramid with an isosceles triangle in its cross sectional view (although the base of the triangle would be curved to the surface of the earth). This would produce a pinnacle angle of 50.78 degrees and an ascent angle of 64.61 - 10.8425 = 53.77 degrees. Because of how the pinnacle would diminish into the distance (it's 1,738.7 miles away from that center gate), this pyramid would APPEAR to have dimensions of an equilateral triangle (with curving sloped sides), and yet from a distance one could tell that it DOES have an isosceles shape to the triangle such that it's curved base is equal to it's height.

Just some food for thought

Mtt13:45-"again the kingdom of heavenis like unto a merchant man seeking goodly pearls, who when he found one pearl of great price, sold all he had, and bought it." What is the math of a pearl? Edited December 16, 2012 by Bader

[Bader]

Shalom, John Robinson.

I for one don't care if it's a cube, pyramid, tetrahedron, or a Moebius strip. God made it for us, and I'm sure it'll be beyond anything our minds can comprehend.

In its totality, undoubtedly it will be incomprehensible; however, we can get a glimpse of what it will look like in a very general way since Yochanan's description is very general. Just the same, there are contextual clues that most miss. I choose to focus on those clues, because as tangible and as concrete as you can make it in your mind's eye, the better will be your confidence in its reality. I believe that people need to be able to visualize the city and the New Earth to increase their faith.

See, many people do not read Hebrews 11:1 correctly, and this is largely due to the way other versions render the verse.

Hebrews 11:1

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

KJV

Many hear this verse and think that faith is about the things we hope for and the things we can't see, but that is not what the verse says! Those are details in the prepositional phrases that describe the faith, but the faith itself is said to be substance and evidence! What "substance?" What "evidence?" Well, the rest of the chapter is the "evidence!" And the Holy Scriptures themselves is the "substance!" We don't have an "I hope so" kind of faith; we have an "I know so" kind of faith! Faith in God is not difficult to have, but it will always tend to elude those who don't know its nature and continue to focus on the "faith" part! If one truly wants to increase one's faith in God, the answer is simple: Get to know God! The more one understands the character of the God who can do the impossible and who truly loves His children, the easier it will be to trust Him, to have faith in Him!

It's the same thing with what to expect in our future. The more concrete our understanding of what to expect, the more likely it will be real for us and the better we'll be able to witness to others.

I dont think hwbrews 11 has anything to do with it.I also think to try and materialise it will trend towards creating another idol,it's symboliclike the temple detilsand priestly garments etc etc with alltheir details, it's what they stand for to come to pass we need the fafith for. John 14:3 has already been quoted. People literalised the 'mansion' which was a bad translation , the subjest was 'dwellingplace' which jesus had witht he the father, this city-bride is the sumtotal of them all.Knowing the architecture is not the key to getting there.'they that have my spirit these saith he are mine'

[Retrobyter]

...

Matt. 13:45 - "again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man seeking goodly pearls, who when he found one pearl of great price, sold all he had, and bought it." What is the math of a pearl?

The math of a pearl? That depends on what you are looking for. Mathematics is just a way to identify the relationships between physical things. Matthew 13:45 is a parable about the KINGDOM! That's NOT the "church" or people or any such thing. The Kingdom from the sky is being compared to the MERCHANT MAN, not the pearl! Yeshua` IS that merchant or investor. What this verse is saying is that when Yeshua` is reigning in Isra'el beginning in the Millennium, the King will be able to make incredible investments and always come out in the black no matter how much He invests. He could sink His entire wealth into a venture and come out "smelling like roses."

Now, if you want to talk about the gates of the New Jerusalem, which are also said to be pearls, those gates are very intriguing.

Revelation 21:10-27

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

KJV

Why would the city have twelve gates that are never used? They will always stand open! Notice: Verse 21 says that the twelve gates were twelve pearls. It does NOT say that they were LIKE pearls nor does it say that they were made out of pearls! It says that each gate (every several gate) was from ONE PEARL! We get our real pearls today from oysters, although we also have manufactured pearls. However, the God who made the oysters planned how their immune systems would create the pearls. Therefore, if God wants to make huge pearls like their lesser counterparts, God would certainly know how to create them. However, once again, there are twelve of these huge pearls, and they always stand open! What is their purpose?

Well, at the risk of sounding too simple, generally speaking pearls are ROUND! How does one open or shut a round gate? One would ROLL the gate away from the doorway! I believe that each of these twelve gates commemorate the RESURRECTION of Yeshua`! Notice, too, that each gate is always attended by a messenger, an "angel!" And, I believe that is why these gates always stand open. The stone is forever rolled away from the tomb!

How's that for "math?"

[Retrobyter]

...

I dont think Hebrews 11 has anything to do with it. I also think to try and materialise it will trend towards creating another idol; it's symbolic like the temple details and priestly garments, etc. etc. with all their details; it's what they stand for to come to pass we need the faith for. John 14:3 has already been quoted. People literalised the 'mansion' which was a bad translation; the subject was 'dwelling place' which Jesus had with the Father, this city-bride is the sum total of them all. Knowing the architecture is not the key to getting there. 'They that have my spirit these, saith he, are mine.'

People don't have to "materialize" things to create idols for themselves. All they have to do is treat anything or anyone with more attention, respect, or fame than they do God, and ... voila! They have an idol! That can be money, the TV, some baseball, football, basketball, hockey, or soccer player, or a movie star, or even a famous politician! (That can even be ONESELF!) If you show respect to ANYONE more than you do to God, you have an idol.

The temple details and priestly garments may have REPRESENTED something else, but that does not mean that they are ALLEGORICAL! Simple symbolism is one thing; trying to find symbolism in everything is quite another! And, just because a very real temple or a very real garment stood for something else, it doesn't mean that the temple or garment was less real! There will be quite a bit of symbolism in the New Jerusalem, I'm sure; however, that doesn't make the city any less real! It WILL exist (probably already does), and it's very real dimensions are HUGE!

I agree with you about the Greek word "monai" translated "mansions." As the plural of "monee," it does mean a "place of residence" or a "room"; however, that too doesn't make them any less real! I believe that's where Yeshua` is today. He is in the New Jerusalem literally making more rooms for those who are becoming God's children!

Finally, I have a bone to pick with you. You said, "They that have my spirit these, saith he, are mine." I've done quite a bit of searching in the Scriptures for this "verse," and have come up empty. It SOUNDS good, but book, chapter, and verse, please. If one is to quote Scripture, it is always best to give a reference so others can check it out for themselves. It's not enough, when it comes to "quoting" Scripture, to get close but not quite right.

[Bader]

...

Matt. 13:45 - "again the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man seeking goodly pearls, who when he found one pearl of great price, sold all he had, and bought it." What is the math of a pearl?

The math of a pearl? That depends on what you are looking for. Mathematics is just a way to identify the relationships between physical things. Matthew 13:45 is a parable about the KINGDOM! That's NOT the "church" or people or any such thing. The Kingdom from the sky is being compared to the MERCHANT MAN, not the pearl! Yeshua` IS that merchant or investor. What this verse is saying is that when Yeshua` is reigning in Isra'el beginning in the Millennium, the King will be able to make incredible investments and always come out in the black no matter how much He invests. He could sink His entire wealth into a venture and come out "smelling like roses."

Now, if you want to talk about the gates of the New Jerusalem, which are also said to be pearls, those gates are very intriguing.

Revelation 21:10-27

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

KJV

Why would the city have twelve gates that are never used? They will always stand open! Notice: Verse 21 says that the twelve gates were twelve pearls. It does NOT say that they were LIKE pearls nor does it say that they were made out of pearls! It says that each gate (every several gate) was from ONE PEARL! We get our real pearls today from oysters, although we also have manufactured pearls. However, the God who made the oysters planned how their immune systems would create the pearls. Therefore, if God wants to make huge pearls like their lesser counterparts, God would certainly know how to create them. However, once again, there are twelve of these huge pearls, and they always stand open! What is their purpose?

Well, at the risk of sounding too simple, generally speaking pearls are ROUND! How does one open or shut a round gate? One would ROLL the gate away from the doorway! I believe that each of these twelve gates commemorate the RESURRECTION of Yeshua`! Notice, too, that each gate is always attended by a messenger, an "angel!" And, I believe that is why these gates always stand open. The stone is forever rolled away from the tomb!

How's that for "math?"

i LIKE IT, you make it gt better, ONE SEWS AND ANOTHERREEPS, YOU REEPED 12 PEARLS FROM ONE .Pearls grow in the shell LIKE A BABY IN THE WOMB reminds me of the Sscripture

Psalm40:7 "behold i come in the scroll of the book it is written of me," I am thinking of l, those prophecies of the Messiah through the Old Testsment whih when come to maturity were perfect representtion of thefather as Jesus nudged philiiip about when he sked him to show us the father. thanks I enjoyed that.

[Bader]

there ws no name to which this is addressed so i ignored it. can i please know forwhat this is sbout?

[Bader]

...

I dont think Hebrews 11 has anything to do with it. I also think to try and materialise it will trend towards creating another idol; it's symbolic like the temple details and priestly garments, etc. etc. with all their details; it's what they stand for to come to pass we need the faith for. John 14:3 has already been quoted. People literalised the 'mansion' which was a bad translation; the subject was 'dwelling place' which Jesus had with the Father, this city-bride is the sum total of them all. Knowing the architecture is not the key to getting there. 'They that have my spirit these, saith he, are mine.'

People don't have to "materialize" things to create idols for themselves. All they have to do is treat anything or anyone with more attention, respect, or fame than they do God, and ... voila! They have an idol! That can be money, the TV, some baseball, football, basketball, hockey, or soccer player, or a movie star, or even a famous politician! (That can even be ONESELF!) If you show respect to ANYONE more than you do to God, you have an idol.

The temple details and priestly garments may have REPRESENTED something else, but that does not mean that they are ALLEGORICAL! Simple symbolism is one thing; trying to find symbolism in everything is quite another! And, just because a very real temple or a very real garment stood for something else, it doesn't mean that the temple or garment was less real! There will be quite a bit of symbolism in the New Jerusalem, I'm sure; however, that doesn't make the city any less real! It WILL exist (probably already does), and it's very real dimensions are HUGE!

I agree with you about the Greek word "monai" translated "mansions." As the plural of "monee," it does mean a "place of residence" or a "room"; however, that too doesn't make them any less real! I believe that's where Yeshua` is today. He is in the New Jerusalem literally making more rooms for those who are becoming God's children!

Finally, I have a bone to pick with you. You said, "They that have my spirit these, saith he, are mine." I've done quite a bit of searching in the Scriptures for this "verse," and have come up empty. It SOUNDS good, but book, chapter, and verse, please. If one is to quote Scripture, it is always best to give a reference so others can check it out for themselves. It's not enough, when it comes to "quoting" Scripture, to get close but not quite right.

MY comments were not intended to make anything less real. The point about making physical representations is making images and idols which God detests. Some people are verty insiteful about recognising types etc and produced very helpful books, the key issue re: mansions is the Body of Christ, it is the preveleg od abiding in the Son as he was abiding in the Father which He pronmised he would extend to us by the coming of the holy Spirit. Abiding is spiritual not a physivcal place. The presentation John saw of the city is the sum total of all those in christ's body, various charcteristics will glorify that body as to glorify the son.

I appologize for the non-reference, I couln't find it either but it is a strong recalling quote that like many that pop up. It may have originated in a hymn or a popular saying of a pastor but it is veryscriptural otherwise I wouln't use it,

1 JOHN4:13'Hereby know we that we dwell in him nd he in us, because he has givenus of His Spirit"

which is the exact abiding in/dwelling referred to previously.

Devils can quote scripture but cant duplicate god's spirit whereby we are sealed.

[GoldenEagle]

I appologize for the non-reference, I couln't find it either but it is a strong recalling quote that like many that pop up. It may have originated in a hymn or a popular saying of a pastor but it is very scriptural otherwise I wouln't use it,

1 JOHN4:13'Hereby know we that we dwell in him nd he in us, because he has given us of His Spirit" which is the exact abiding in/dwelling referred to previously.

Devils can quote scripture but cant duplicate god's spirit whereby we are sealed.

If it's not Scripture then I'm sure you'd agree that it shouldn't be "quoted" as such wouldn't you agree?

God bless,

GE

[gdemoss]

What I am about to say, I say in love. And I say because I am told to.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Well, I've been insulted by people a lot better than you so go ahead.

Rom 2:1 ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Your right, we as Christians need to be very careful of what image we are showing to others, especially when we are interacting with our brothers in Christ. I believe that we all can learn a lot from this exchange. My mom always told me that I was the pot calling the kettle black. Jesus simply called me a hypocrite with a beam in my eye. I hope that I have learned my lesson by now. Praise God for his Word. May we love each other as he loved us.

Peace in Christ.