War in Gaza – Day Five: Terrorists morph into victims

[Guest shiloh357]

Some more context around the question..."why are we allied with Israel?"

We seem to have one common enemy - Islamic extremists - but very different belief systems. Israel is a nation of people that have have continually rebelled against God, rejected Christ as the Son of God and still do to this day. For the last 2,000 years the Jews have rejected Christ. John 14.6 is not part of their doctrine. In fact, the entire NT is pretty much a lie according the Jews. The US is a predominately a Christian nation yet we're allied with a country that doesn't share our belief system. I don't get it.

Your question confuses two different issues.

We are political allies of Israel because we have histroically shared common enemies. In the 70's and 80's it was the Soviet Union. Today, it is mainly Islamic nations/governments. Islamic nations are committed to Israel's annhilation. And while we don't have a Soviet Union to contend with, Russia still has strong ambitions in the region and Israel is still our best ally against those ambitions.

Why do we as Christians stand with Israel? Because Israel, like it or not, is God's chosen nation. He chose them thousands of years ago and nowhere in the New Testament has God ever rescinded that choice. God has a lot to say in Scripture about Israel and how that they are His people forever.

The Jews did rebel against God, but so have you. You deserved nothing but God's contempt and eternity in hell, and yet God loved you and had mercy on you. God made promises to Israel and He is faithful to His promises to them. If God is not faithful to them, in spite of their rebellion, why should you expect Him to be faithful to you when you sin, when you rebel???

We stand with Israel because God stands with Israel and those who seek Israel's demise, are touching the applie of His eye and He has made several promises regarding the awful demise of the nations who seek to bring harm to Israel.

By the way it is because the US is predominately Christian that makes it all the more important that we stand with Israel. For far too long, Christians have been the source of pain and persecution where Jews are concerned. And even though it may be too little, too late, we need to stand with Israel and demonstrate that we are not like the Christians of that past who either actively participated in persecuting them or sat back in passive, moral indifference to what they are having to endure from their enemies.

We wouldn't have a common enemy if we stayed out of the conflict and stopped needlessly sacrificing american lives to protect a nation of people who do not share our beliefs.

But we haven't sacrificed any American lives to protect Israel. Where did you get that from???

God's chosen people have brought this wrath upon themselves through their disobedience and rejection of Christ. Let Israel fight Her own battles. Why do we need to get involved? That's the question.

You know, during the holocaust, the same mentally was shared by many Christians. They looked at what was happening to the Jews and blamed it on God's wrath as if they deserved to be murdered and tortured. Many Christians sat back in moral indifference to the plight of the Jews during the Holocaust and then they wander why Jews don't want to be Christians.

Now we have people like you who do the same thing. For years, innocent Jews were sacrificed in the streets for "peace." Every time Israel offered the olive branch of peace, they were repaid with bloodshed and more dead Jews on their own streets. And we have people like you who think the Jews deserve to be murdered, to be terrorized in their own country.

The problem here does not stem from Jewish rebellion, but from the intolerance and hatred of Islam. Muslim nations call for the destruction of Israel because Israel exists. That is the root of the problem. Don't let the moral indifference of anti-Semitism blind you to the truth.

Edited November 20, 2012 by shiloh357
Personal attacks removed

[Fez]

Guys let's let this one run. It is "topical" (I will remain as impartial as I can, even in my support for Israel), but any personal attacks like "you hate Israel", or similar, I will edit out. Please save me the work, and choose your words carefully.

I really believe we can learn from threads like these, but we need to keep a lid on our emotions.

[nebula]

Christ said "go and make disciples out of all nations". Well, Christ tried with the Jews and they killed him for it. The disciples all tried and they too were killed. The prophets before Christ all tried and they will all killed. Stephen, the first Christian Martyr, who was stoned by the Jews says it best when he addressed the elders in Acts 7.

Mary, John the Baptist, Jesus, the 12 apostles, Stephen, Paul, Barnabas, all the original disciples (followers of Jesus) were all Jews, too, you know. If not for these Jews, none of us would know Jesus.

As for killing Christians, the Gentile Roman Empire killed more than the rebellious Jews did.

⁵⁹ While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” ⁶⁰ Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why are you still holding this sin against them?

[nebula]

I do however feel the US has made itself a target here and overseas as a direct result of our involvement in their conflict with Palestine.

We're a target because we are the world power leader and are not subjected to Islam. Islamist would be at war with us even if there was no Israel.

Are you discounting God's wrath on Israel? Have you read Genesis through Numbers?? The Scriptures use various terms to express God's emotions that are in contrast to his love for, pleasure in, and satisfaction with his chosen people.

Romans 11

1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. ...

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches ; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited , but fear ; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people ( Matt 3:7 ; Luke 3:7 ), and upon those who refuse to believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world ( John 3:36 ). Paul repeatedly warns about the wrath of God ( Rom 1:18 ; 2:5 ), from which people are to be saved ( Rom 5:9 ). All people are under wrath ( Eph 2:3 ), and the only way to escape this wrath, which is sure to be in full and fierce force in the judgment day, is to believe in Jesus Christ who bore the curse of the covenant and endured the wrath of God when he was crucified. This same Christ will execute divine wrath and vengeance to its fullest degree in judgment day ( Rev 6:16-17 ).

Why do you treat these judgments as exclusive to Israel? As you quoted in John 3:36 - it applies to any who refuse to believe. Gentile atheist, agnostics, Muslims, HIndus, Buddhist, Wiccans, etc. fit into this category too, do they not?

If you take Scripture literally and believe was is written then it would be fairly self-evident that Israel is currently under God's wrath.

But so is the rest of the world.

And just like the rest of the world, His mercies are great and new every morning.

It is so sad to see your unforgiving spirit expressed this way towards the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

[nebula]

Furthermore, the only reason Iran is a threat to us is because of our allegiance to Israel and unwarranted involvement in the Middle East. We quickly making enemies of all Arab nations and even non-Arab nations like Russia and China.

It is very sad that you perceive Israel to be the the greatest evil in the world.

But the US was at odds with Russia and China apart from our allegiance to Israel. Don't you remember the Cold War? None of that had to do with Israel. You should know this.

As for Iran, haven't you heard their president's declarations that they want to set the stage for their Mahdi to appear? According to their prophecies, it will take world-wide chaos and war for this to happen. Even if there were no Israel, they would still be a threat.

[Tinky]

We quickly making enemies of all Arab nations

The Muslims hated us long before Israel became a nation again. They hate everyone who is not Muslim. Also, the United States fought two wars with Muslims long before Israel became a nation again. Read up on the First and Second Barbary Wars (early 19th century). They were immortalized in the "Marine Hymn" (the "shores of Tripoli" part).

[Guest shiloh357]

I am NOT anti-Israel. I apologize if it comes off that way. I do however feel the US has made itself a target here and overseas as a direct result of our involvement in their conflict with Palestine.

But our involvement has always ended up favoring the Arabs. It was the US who has convinced Israel to give more and more land to Arabs and Palestinians. It is the US who forced Israel to give up all of Gaza. It has been the US that has often kept Israel from responding to terrorist attacks. The US sells more weapons to Israel's Arab enemies than it does to Israel. The US backed free and democratic elections in Palestinian held Gaza. Israel's has made insane concessions to Arab/terrorist organizations that have resulted in more dead Jews on the streets.

We have been targets all along and for reasons that have NOTHING to do with Israel. The problem is that Israel is always the pretext used to disguise their true motives. They hate us because hate is the primary attribute of Islam. Islam hates Bhuddists, Christians, Jews, etc. They hate everyone that is not Muslim. It is their hate for us, their hate for us because we are so much more powerful than they are, which is anti-thetical to Islam's desire to rule the world and to be the most powerful force on earth. That is the true motive behind their hatred of us.

Are you discounting God's wrath on Israel? Have you read Genesis through Numbers?? The Scriptures use various terms to express God's emotions that are in contrast to his love for, pleasure in, and satisfaction with his chosen people.

His anger and wrath also arose against Israel with whom he had covenanted when they worshiped the golden calf ( Exod 32:11 ), and when they rebelled after hearing the report of ten of the twelve spies ( Numbers 14:11-12 Numbers 14:23 ; Heb 3:10-11 ; 4:3 ). Moses warned of the consequences of God's wrath for Israel if as a people they broke the covenant ( Deut 11:17 ; Deuteronomy 29:23 Deuteronomy 29:28 ); because God's love was offended they would experience famine, defeat, exile, and death. The Chronicler referred to God's wrath repeatedly because Israel, God's covenant people, ignored, rejected, and spurned his love, his will, and their life with God-given blessings. The psalmists referred to the wrath of God against nations ( Psalm 2:5 ; Psalms 59:5 Psalms 59:13 ; 78:49 ;79:6 ), against personal enemies ( Psalm 55:3 ), against the covenant people for their sin ( Psalm 89:46 ; 92:7 ; 95:11 ), and against the psalmists themselves ( Psalm 88:7 ). The prophets likewise prophesied concerning the wrath of God executed upon nations for their hatred of and destruction wreaked on the covenant people ( Isa 13:13 ; 14:6 ). The anger of God was demonstrated in the exile of Israel ( Isa 60:11 ).

Guess what??? Jesus' death on the cross paid for their sins too. He satisfied God's wrath against all sin including the rebellion of Israel. God's justice has been satisfied in Christ. God doesn't have some eternal grudge agaisnt the Jews.

The wrath of God that the New Testament speaks of is to be expressed in judgments on a wicked, rebellious covenant people ( Matt 3:7 ; Luke 3:7 ), and upon those who refuse to believe in and accept Jesus Christ as the Savior of the world ( John 3:36 ). Paul repeatedly warns about the wrath of God ( Rom 1:18 ; 2:5 ), from which people are to be saved ( Rom 5:9 ). All people are under wrath ( Eph 2:3 ), and the only way to escape this wrath, which is sure to be in full and fierce force in the judgment day, is to believe in Jesus Christ who bore the curse of the covenant and endured the wrath of God when he was crucified. This same Christ will execute divine wrath and vengeance to its fullest degree in judgment day ( Rev 6:16-17 ).

If you take Scripture literally and believe was is written then it would be fairly self-evident that Israel is currently under God's wrath.

Again, this is the same moral indfference reasoning that was used by those Christians who saw the Holocaust as something the Jews deserved. The terrorism that Israel is being faced with is not the outworking of the wrath of God. If it were, God is highly inefficient in despensing judgment becaue the Jews are winning the wars being inititated by their enemies.

What you are seeing is the fulfillment of biblibcal prophecy about how God will restore the Jews to their land. Zechariah 12 speaks of Israel's ability to defeat her enemies. The Palestinians are the living emblem of the truth Gen. 12:3. God will curse those who curse Israel and the Palestinians are a prime example of what happens to the nations that curse Israel and seek to bring harm to Israel.

God has an eternal covenant with Abraham (Gen. 17:8,9). That covenant can't be broken. It is God's promise of the Land to Abraham and his physical descendents. The Palestinians can't break that covenant; they can only break themselves agaisnt it.

[Tinky]

But our involvement has always ended up favoring the Arabs. It was the US who has convinced Israel to give more and more land to Arabs and Palestinians. It is the US who forced Israel to give up all of Gaza. It has been the US that has often kept Israel from responding to terrorist attacks. The US sells more weapons to Israel's Arab enemies than it does to Israel. The US backed free and democratic elections in Palestinian held Gaza. Israel's has made insane concessions to Arab/terrorist organizations that have resulted in more dead Jews on the streets.

We have been targets all along and for reasons that have NOTHING to do with Israel. The problem is that Israel is always the pretext used to disguise their true motives. They hate us because hate is the primary attribute of Islam. Islam hates Bhuddists, Christians, Jews, etc. They hate everyone that is not Muslim. It is their hate for us, their hate for us because we are so much more powerful than they are, which is anti-thetical to Islam's desire to rule the world and to be the most powerful force on earth. That is the true motive behind their hatred of us.

True! True! True!

[nebula]

I do not perceive Israel to be the greatest evil in the world.

The way you have been picking on them and singling them out, it sure would seem so.

Quite the contrary.

What is your evidence to back this statement?

The only thing I've been questioning in this entire thread before we got sidetracked along with millions of other americans is our unwavering support of Israel on issues that are really none of our business. Why must the US be the world's Watchdog? Why is it up to us to fight Israel's battles for them? What are we even doing in the Middle East? We have enough problems at home.

Why are we messing in Egypt's business? Libya's business? Saudi Arabia's business? You see, I haven't seen you speaking against these nations. Only Israel.

You need to stop dodging the challenges presented to you.

[OneLight]

ndibari, your questions have some merit, but lack much of the depth it needs to be supported. I find the whole world as a watchdog. Just about every nation are watching everything going on and have statements they make on where they stand with about every issue the world faces. The US is a country the world asks to become involved ... look at the World Wars.

i back the US for going after those who were involved in 9-11, but Bush took it upon himself to extend our military arm to remove Saddam from power, taking our focus off from al-Qaeda. It is only my theory, but I believe he did this to finish the job his father started, trying to "save face". I could be wrong.

Israel is a whole different story. Here is a nation God has set up and loves. This nation is hated the world over for this reason alone. Israel could fit in Lake Michigan and is a little longer then New Jersey. Yet, they are surrounded by those who would love to see them gone. On the North is Lebanon with the Hezbollah, supported by Iran with thousands of Iranian missiles. To the South West is Hamas, also supported by Iran by missiles smuggled in through Sudan and Egypt, which are now being fired into Israel. To the South is Egypt, which changed its Government to a more radical Muslim Brotherhood, who also are calling for the destruction of Israel, supporting the Hamas by allowing Iranian missiles to be moved through their country. Everywhere you look, Israel is surrounded by countries that want Israel to be destroyed. Behind all of them is Iran and the most radical Islamist idealist we know. Iran not only wants to destroy Israel, the little Satan, but the US, the big Satan.

Your comments cause me to wonder if this is a realization in your life? Tell me, would you also like to see Israel destroyed? If not, how do you see them surviving if nobody is willing to help? Look t it this way, Israel is like a child on a playground, surrounded with a bunch of playground bullies, continually picking on Israel, pushing and hitting Israel. You are standing there watching all this take place. Would you go and stand by Israel to help stop the bullying going on or would you just stand there quietly hoping they will stop as Israel get badly beat?

This picture may give you a better perspective how Israel is surrounded. Israel is the blue country. Keep in mind that not all Muslim nations are shown in the picture.