Hama Halajba and Fallujah. Crimes repeated.

[amor]

The difference in morality is the heart and intent of those with their thumbs on the buttons.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All those involved in such crimes see themselves as being morally in the right, ignoring the fact that their actions lead to the deaths of many who have no involvement in the argument in question. Believing that your actions are correct does not mean that they are.

[Guest shiloh357]

The difference in morality is the heart and intent of those with their thumbs on the buttons.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All those involved in such crimes see themselves as being morally in the right, ignoring the fact that their actions lead to the deaths of many who have no involvement in the argument in question. Believing that your actions are correct does not mean that they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do not need moral instruction from the likes of people like you, who support and lend sympathy to groups like hamas. It is that moral bankruptcy that leads me to believe that you did not protest Sadaam Hussein at Halajba as you say. Anyone who is a Hamas apologist could never possess the moral fiber to protest the crimes of Hussein. Frankly, your sympathy for groups like Hamas strips you of any credibility or integrity. I have already caught you in lies and half truths; pretty typical of terror apologists.

[amor]

The difference in morality is the heart and intent of those with their thumbs on the buttons.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All those involved in such crimes see themselves as being morally in the right, ignoring the fact that their actions lead to the deaths of many who have no involvement in the argument in question. Believing that your actions are correct does not mean that they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do not need moral instruction from the likes of people like you, who support and lend sympathy to groups like hames. It is that moral bankruptcy that leads me to believe that you did not protest Sadaam Hussein at Halajba as you say. Anyone who is a hames apologist could never possess the moral fiber to protest the crimes of Hussein. Frankly, your sympathy for groups like hames strips you of any credibility or integrity. I have already caught you in lies and half truths; pretty typical of terror apologists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please find, and quote, a post where I declared my support for hames. Please expose my lies and half truths, if they exist it shouldn't be too difficult. I support the right of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples to live in peace and security within their own state. I do not support those who use violence to achieve their objectives

[dwinkjr]

The difference in morality is the heart and intent of those with their thumbs on the buttons.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All those involved in such crimes see themselves as being morally in the right, ignoring the fact that their actions lead to the deaths of many who have no involvement in the argument in question. Believing that your actions are correct does not mean that they are.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We do not need moral instruction from the likes of people like you, who support and lend sympathy to groups like hames. It is that moral bankruptcy that leads me to believe that you did not protest Sadaam Hussein at Halajba as you say. Anyone who is a hames apologist could never possess the moral fiber to protest the crimes of Hussein. Frankly, your sympathy for groups like hames strips you of any credibility or integrity. I have already caught you in lies and half truths; pretty typical of terror apologists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please find, and quote, a post where I declared my support for hames. Please expose my lies and half truths, if they exist it shouldn't be too difficult. I support the right of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples to live in peace and security within their own state. I do not support those who use violence to achieve their objectives

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So Amor, what is it you suggest we do in Iraq? Rebuild the gov't of the whole country and leave one city that of Taliban loyalists there to rebuild and undo everything we have helped the Iraquie people achieve? How many opportunities must we give the civilians in Fallujah to leave before we go in? Must we bus them all out to tents on a military compound and provide them food and water until we are done removing the terrorists from there city?

If you were told that S.W.A.T. was coming into your neighborhood to infiltrate the drug lab next door, would you stay home or clear out until they were done? Stick aronud and take the chance of a stray bullet or leave and keep you and your family out of harms way? Even if you had nowhere else to go, you would find a way to get out. If they are still in the city at this point it means they support the terrorists and chose to stay and fight.

God Bless,

Dave

[ted]

amor, I do not condone the civilian deaths or half-heartedly dismiss them as simple by-products of war. It is sad that they are a part of this.

If you look at the tactics and intentions of all sides in the war in Iraq objectively, I don't see how the two sides compare.

Please, and besides the duly noted mess at the Abu-grab (sp?) prison, show me an instance where we targeted innocent civilians on a bus, toy store, night club, restaurant, or any other place with a homicide bomber as a weapon. Please show me where we have indiscriminately targeted any such place. Please show me where we have destroyed families in the name of allah.

I'm not talking about places where we had to go in because some cowards were held up in hiding.

These are sick people that talk big, yet hide behind children and in hospitals, too afraid to fight for their cause.

They figure they can win by simply winning over people like you with the help of a few well-placed news reports.

I understand the frustration that comes with civilians getting caught in the cross-fire. I really do. I've seen a lot of it first hand. The simple fact is, it could all be avoided if the terrorists, or "freedom fighters" would simply give up in light of the innocents in jeopardy.

Do you understand that they won't stop killing even if we pick up and move every last soldier out tonight?

Do you?

Perhaps you have never seen what lengths we go to NOT to harm civilians. Maybe you just don't realize that even many enemy combatants are alive today because we have a sense of good that keeps us from shooting at even the hardest moments.

Maybe all you choose to see is the rare mistake that happens as it's plastered across the tv and talked about like we wanted it to happen.

You are either blind to that situation, or choose to see it in a way that makes us out to be the evil that we are fighting.

t.

[Guest yod]

Anyone who equates indiscriminate murder to a defensive action in response to indiscriminate murder is either willfully blind.....or lying murderer themselves

One of the two.

[Guest shiloh357]

We do not need moral instruction from the likes of people like you, who support and lend sympathy to groups like hames.  It is that moral bankruptcy that leads me to believe that you did not protest Sadaam Hussein at Halajba as you say.  Anyone who is a hames apologist could never possess the moral fiber to protest the crimes of Hussein.  Frankly, your sympathy for groups like hames strips you of any credibility or integrity.  I have already caught you in lies and half truths; pretty typical of terror apologists.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please find, and quote, a post where I declared my support for hames. Please expose my lies and half truths, if they exist it shouldn't be too difficult. I support the right of the Palestinian and Israeli peoples to live in peace and security within their own state. I do not support those who use violence to achieve their objectives

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not in what you say, but rather in what you don't say.

Terror apologists do two things. You condemn the violence on both sides but you reserve blame for Israel, or in this case, the US. It is a transparent attempt at being "evenhanded," which is altogether disnengenuous.

Secondly, where Israel is concerned, you claim to condemn Hamas' tactics while sympathizing with their cause. How is this possible when their cause is the annihilation of Israel? You cannot claim to condemn their tactics while sympathizing with their cause which is itself the catalyst for the terrorism in the first place. Hamas and other terror groups have made it clear that a Palestinian state means the annihilation of Israel since the only Palestinian state that will exist, will be from the Jordan river to Mediterranean Sea.

As far as your half truths and lies are concerned, I am not going to wade through months posts but your silly rants about Qana and Sabra and Shatilla are just some of the classic examples of how you twist and omit facts to make things appear to be what they are not.

You apply the same tactics to the war in Iraq. You redefine concepts like murder and assign values and motives to the troops and the American government, to make us appear to be what we are not. As has been seen in the many responses here, you are not gaining any ground and no one is buying the snake oil you are peddling.

[AnotherTraveler]

Now in the 2004 and Bush and Blair, again facing a population that is resisting their well laid plans are about to engage in a similar action. Are all you "hawks" out there happy with this? Are you able to give, a Christian explanation as to how such an attack can be justified, and how it differs from these earlier crimes? Can you also give a justification for that obscene "Oh dude tape"?

In 2004 it is not just Bush and Blair, but a group of nations led by the United States and coming with military force, and if they want to resist, that is their choice, but this is not the PTA at their gates, this is the world's most sophesticated military nations gathered for the purpose of shutting down terrorism, the choice is lay down your weapons or we are going to take them away from you by force. Period.

In many places armed evil men hold cities and states by using these very arms to terrorize and dominate the local populations, and when these same armed criminals are rooted out and killed or imprisoned, these places are very often greatly thankful for the freedom from tyranny.

However, evil armed men often don't just give up the evil that they are doing without being forced to do so, and that is exactly why we are there.

I love peace, but many times the route to peace is to overcome those that love murder by force. Throughout history, nations have gone to war for various reasons, and we were forced into a war posture on 9/11, for we realized that a very small group of people bent on murder killed thousands, and to allow them to train, equip, plan, and attack us without a response from us was not a good idea.

There are rogue nations that either possess or soon will posess nuclear weapons, and it is better to make an example of our willingness to fight to disarm by doing so to a non nuclear nation first, and Iraq is that example. Lybia got the message.

We will no doubt proceed to deal with Iran, Syria, North Korea, and where ever we must go to root out the ability of a small group to do massive destruction to people all over the world.

About the time France or Spain was attacked by WMD or a 9/11 similar attack, they would change their tune. Europe has such a memory problem. If we had not attacked in a ground war on European soil, that cost the lives of MILLIONS of civilians in cities across Europe, today they would be all goosestepping nazi puppet states.

When we were saving their grandpappies skins we were allies and heros, they promised to never forget the sacrifice of so many on their behalf, but a new generation has come up and they don't have much of a memory of these things.

(Exo 1:8 KJV) Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

[amor]

amor, I do not condone the civilian deaths or half-heartedly dismiss them as simple by-products of war. It is sad that they are a part of this.

If you look at the tactics and intentions of all sides in the war in Iraq objectively, I don't see how the two sides compare.

Please, and besides the duly noted mess at the Abu-grab (sp?) prison, show me an instance where we targeted innocent civilians on a bus, toy store, night club, restaurant, or any other place with a homicide bomber as a weapon. Please show me where we have indiscriminately targeted any such place. Please show me where we have destroyed families in the name of allah.

I'm not talking about places where we had to go in because some cowards were held up in hiding.

These are sick people that talk big, yet hide behind children and in hospitals, too afraid to fight for their cause.

t.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course the american or British forces they don't use suicide bombers, they don't need to as they have a huge technical advantage. However there are plenty of examples where the use of that technology causes civilian casualties far in excess of that which could be achieved by suicide tactics. You ask for specific examples of targeting civilians in restaurants etc, there are plenty of these, for example the well publicized attack on a wedding party in western Iraq.Here is a Fox news report, hardly a "liberal" source of information.. There is of course the argument that this was an accident, but this ignores the criminal negligence of those responsible for that accident, and the attempt to deny what had actually happened, despite the videos repotting to the country. Returning to my original focus, Fallujah, the fact is that the types of attacks that have already happened, and those that I fear are to come, inevitably lead to civilian deaths, these are tactics that are immoral and unacceptable.

You criticize the way that the "insurgents" operate, yet they use fairly traditional guerrilla techniques, those used by resistance movements facing superior fire power the world over. The same tactics used by resistance and partisan movements during WW2. We do not condemn the the latter nearly so much as, we condemn the Nazis for reacting to partisan actions by indiscriminately attacking the civilian population which harboured them, or amongst which they hid, or indeed just lived.

Edited to add details of websites that have sought to estimate the levels of civilian casualties during the war in Iraq. firstly details about the survey done on behalf of the Lancet, a leading medical journal not generally regarded as a source of leftist propaganda . Here after surveying casualty levels in 33 localities, and excluding Fallujah from their survey in case it skewed the result they estimate that around 100,00 Iraqis have died. The second isis from the Iraqi body count organisation, who collate their numbers from morgues, death certificates etc, and can positively identify over 16000 deaths.

Edited November 5, 2004 by amor

[amor]

It is not in what you say, but rather in what you don't say.

Terror apologists do two things. You condemn the violence on both sides but you reserve blame for Israel, or in this case, the US. It is a transparent attempt at being "evenhanded," which is altogether disnengenuous.

Secondly, where Israel is concerned, you claim to condemn Hamas' tactics while sympathizing with their cause. How is this possible when their cause is the annihilation of Israel? You cannot claim to condemn their tactics while sympathizing with their cause which is itself the catalyst for the terrorism in the first place. Hamas and other terror groups have made it clear that a Palestinian state means the annihilation of Israel since the only Palestinian state that will exist, will be from the Jordan river to Mediterranean Sea.

As far as your half truths and lies are concerned, I am not going to wade through months posts but your silly rants about Qana and Sabra and Shatilla are just some of the classic examples of how you twist and omit facts to make things appear to be what they are not.

You apply the same tactics to the war in Iraq. You redefine concepts like murder and assign values and motives to the troops and the American government, to make us appear to be what we are not. As has been seen in the many responses here, you are not gaining any ground and no one is buying the snake oil you are peddling.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>