Molinism

[childeye]

So, by your definition, God is responsible for all the sin in the world and the reason why Lucifer turned against Him. That is a lie straight from the pits.

Don't take it out on me. That's just what the scripture says. Vanity is a usurping because one does not acknowledge God as everything that is good in the soul. Hence God gave men over to the lusts of the flesh to become vile and filled with all sinfulness. It says so right here.

No sir, it is not what scripture says. God is not responsible for the choices we or any of His creation makes. That is the truth I have been pointing out to you all along, that we are responsible for our own actions. You just are so tied up in the bondage of your misunderstanding that you refuse to see the truth, but only desire to defend a lie. By creating excuses for why people sin, then saying God is responsible for our sins, is not scriptural, but blasphemous.

The lie as I pointed out, and am seeking to expose, not defend, is that men do not esteem God as the Light of their souls, that is the vanity that is the sinfulness spoken of below, and that is what freewill is not recognizing.

²⁴ Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ²⁵ They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

²⁶ Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. ²⁷ In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

²⁸ Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. ²⁹ They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, ³⁰ slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; ³¹ they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. ³² Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Romans 2

New International Version (NIV)

God’s Righteous Judgment

2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. ² Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. ³ So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? ⁴ Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

You are defending a false doctrine that free will removes God from being the Light of our souls, as you put it. Free will is about our choices to follow or not follow God. It does not change one thing about who God is or His purpose in anyone's life.

But as you said, to even think of disobeying God is sin. Consequently there is no choice to consider as freewill implies. God is our Light.

Sin starts in the heart. Once the mind gets a hold of the desires of the heart, it creates an image or a plan, depending on the sin. The thought is not the beginning of the sin, but where it gains more food to grow. The first choice is whether to continue sinning or asking God for His strength.

If you would take your blinders off, you will see.

I asked God for a new heart and He gave me one.

[childeye]

i only jest, childeye.

we are partly in agreement, because i don't believe i can even lift a finger to type this if not by His Divine Providence, but at the least, i am given the illusion of that liberty by which i will be judged.

the tares will be righteously punished because they willingly chose to be slaves to sin.

Interesting. Please expound.

[OneLight]

The point is that the Sadducee and Pharisees claim to be the ones holding the truth about God, claiming to be the leaders of the people in all matters pertaining to God, that they are not blind but see. They told others how to please God but did not do the same as they instructed others to do. That is what made them hypocrites.

I don't agree with your interpretation. For Jesus said, "if you were blind you should have no sin". According to your view that would be like him saying, if you didn't think you were holding the Truth about God you'd have no sin. Then every agnostic would therefore have no sin. No. Jesus is saying, if you counted sin an infirmity, you'd have no sin, but because you think men sin on purpose, your sin remains.

You really need to spend more time in scripture. My explanation is the very basics of understand the time of Christ and the religious system that was in place..

Your fruit is born from the false teaching that men have excuses for sinning, which clouds the truth and sometimes hide it all together. It is bad fruit, and you are not welcome for your fruit, but welcome for allowing me to point this out to you. What you do what the truth I tell you is "your choice".

I choose to address your implication. I take any sin I commit to heart, just as I assume everyone else does. I hurt if I hurt someone else. That is the effect of empathy upon me. But beating myself up doesn't change me from a sinner. If beating myself up did change me, then I would be a Muslim. But I believe in the Christ who took a cross and forgave those who crucified him saying, forgive them for they know not what they do. If I didn't see the Christ excusing their sin on account of they didn't know what they were doing, then he would be no different than most any other religious speaker

Jesus had mercy on them because He knew their heart. We never know the heart of another. Still, Jesus did not say they did not sin because of this, but asked the Father to have mercy on them. There are times when we do act out of ignorance, but that does not excuse us of our wrong doing. There may come a time when we willfully lie to save a life, but that does not mean we did not lie. There is a difference between why we do what we do and what we do, though they are connected.

Finding out why I sin in the first place is the more important issue to me, rather than just recognizing and admitting I did wrong. Not because of the self-centered purpose of not wanting to end up feeling bad for it later, but so that I don't hurt others to begin with. Well I have found out why we sin and and it isn't because we have freewills. Nor is it that we need to beat ourselves and others so as to stop it. It is an infirmity of the flesh. I blame the infirmity of our flesh. Not so that I can make excuse to sin as you have lovingly implied. But so as to have compassion rather than hypocrisy ike the Pharisees who say we see. But to find the cure, the Truth that sets one free, so as to not be sick any longer. Consequently, I would not consider saying Jesus' fruit was false teaching because he was making excuses for men's sins by calling the sinners sick. I would say he sees our infirmities and knows how to cure us. So once again, here are the Pharisees vs. Jesus.

Mark 2:16-17

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

¹⁷ On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

I agree, we do not sin because of free will, but because of the desires of the heart. The process of sinning is through our free will as we chose to sin. Your understanding of what free will is not the correct understanding and that is what I have been spending days trying to show you. For some reason, you think having a free will diminishes God, it does not.

Any references to what I have seen in you derived from your own words, what you have said in our conversations. Even when we do know the truth, we still sin. The choices we make are due to seeing through a glass darkly, since we are not perfect. To have a goal in this life to not sin is unrealistic, and God knows that already. We can refrain from the actions, but it is almost impossible to refrain from sinful thoughts. Our thoughts are where we filter the good from the bad.

Jesus was not saying we are sick sinners. Jesus was saying that those who believe they are right in Gods eyes are not the ones He is trying to reach, because they are self righteous, deaf and blind. Instead, He came for the lost who know they are lost. He was using the sick as an analogy.

[childeye]

You really need to spend more time in scripture. My explanation is the very basics of understand the time of Christ and the religious system that was in place..

The religious system of the time was through the laws of Moses. And the law is recognized as a form of righteousness for those who are obedient to it. So I agree with that assessment. They are blind to the righteousness that comes by faith. And here freewill is an issue. For it was presumed that God had given the law because He expected men to keep it wherefore if any man did not, then it was by his choice not to. Hence God said, I set before you Life or death, choose Life. But that was the Old Testament which was in the letter. In the New Testament however, the law is seen as a means to make sin known, implying that men could not keep it of their own righteousness due to weakness (infirmity) of the flesh. Paul testifies that through the law sin was empowered rather than diminished, because although men may agree with the law and would choose to keep it, they only failed and were instead condemned to death by it, because although the law was spiritual, it was not by faith. So it is revealed that sin and righteousness is not a matter of choice, but a matter of grace through faith in the Christ, a spiritual necessity. Consequently in Christ, we are obligated to forgive others their sin so as to be forgiven for ours. Also because we are under grace sin loses power over us even as we believe unto righteousness not counting it as our own.

There are times when we do act out of ignorance, but that does not excuse us of our wrong doing. There may come a time when we willfully lie to save a life, but that does not mean we did not lie. There is a difference between why we do what we do and what we do, though they are connected.

Yes, I agree we are not excused for our wrong doing when in Christ. And there is a distinction to be made between those who are in Christ and those who are yet slaves to sin. Nonetheless, the walk out of darkness is not an instant one for most Christians. The power of sin over our wills diminishes as we forgive others. That is my experience. The less we seek righteousness through the works of the law, the less power sin has over our wills. The more we believe that God is our Light and it is not of ourselves, the more righteous we become. As God said, My strength is made perfect in weakness.

I agree, we do not sin because of free will, but because of the desires of the heart.

Thank you for this. I might add the desires of the heart that are ungodly are there because of vanity.

The process of sinning is through our free will as we chose to sin. Your understanding of what free will is not the correct understanding and that is what I have been spending days trying to show you. For some reason, you think having a free will diminishes God, it does not.

I understand what your intentions are. You have made it loud and clear. You do not want people to think it is okay to sin, particularly and especially in Christ. I have seen many forms and degrees of a moral freewill. Mostly they describe some gray area where God and sin become a man's prerogative to choose between. I acknowedge man's ability to reason but discard the idea that Love is at one's discretion.

Nevertheless, freewill is an accepted form of thinking all over the world. Most every person believes that they are in control of their actions whether they call it a gift from God or evolution. Most people do not stop to think of what it means to believe unto righteousness, and why the spirit of Christ is a necessity to have that righteousness that defeats sin. Everyone bases the necessity of believing on freewill for there to be responsibility. As if all hell will break loose and everyone overnight will start to murder, rape and steal without fear of punishment. Not so. For Love does not exist upon the fear of punishment. That is only one of the lies in the subconscience which belief in freewill brings with it.

It is in fact the responsible thing to admit that we are helpless in overcoming sin without that righteousness that comes through the Faith that God is our Light. His righteousness causes us to walk in His ways and act more responsibly. We must cherish the Love that is God in us. You need only use the word "will" to establish that we make choices. But behind our moral choices are either powers of darkness or powers of Light and are by definition not freely made so long as ignorance of this exists. See the thousand demons cast out of the wild man into the pigs, who immediately all run off a cliff unto their deaths.

Morally speaking, the option to sin was never proposed by God. For when did God ever say, I have given you the ability to reject me and live? It was the devil that proposed we had a choice to disobey God and not die. Hence those who believe in freewill would include atheists and humanists and secularists. Never does it come into their minds that the devil is controlling them through deception, nor that the love in their hearts is God rather than their prerogative, because of their blindness of freewill.

Any references to what I have seen in you derived from your own words, what you have said in our conversations. Even when we do know the truth, we still sin. The choices we make are due to seeing through a glass darkly, since we are not perfect. To have a goal in this life to not sin is unrealistic, and God knows that already. We can refrain from the actions, but it is almost impossible to refrain from sinful thoughts. Our thoughts are where we filter the good from the bad.

I must agree that the temptor is ever present in the air, but not in my heart. So yes he is ever in my thoughts as I put him under my feet through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hence I count a moral freewill one that is set free through the knowledge of God (The Holy Spirit of Truth which comes in the name of the Christ). I can even agree that I have a home while others are homeless and I am warm where others are cold, I am full where others are hungry. Therefore I am a sinner. But the walk in Christ does end vile passions as people walk in the spirit of a pure and understanding forgiveness, thankfulness, and charity.

And yes we see through a glass darkly, so I do not see everything. But, it doesn't set people free to tell them they knowingly and wantonly sin because they simply choose to. For this means they simply could choose not to which undermines the Gospel. I feel that such teaching brings condemnation upon people when they struggle to not sin and only fail. They become convinced they must be no good and God becomes a terror of hell, so they leave the faith, though they never even truly experienced it.

Jesus was not saying we are sick sinners. Jesus was saying that those who believe they are right in Gods eyes are not the ones He is trying to reach, because they are self righteous, deaf and blind. Instead, He came for the lost who know they are lost. He was using the sick as an analogy.

I don't disagree entirely. But this I must say. That Paul speaks of the infirmity (weakness) of the flesh many times, and it is not an analogy. God has chosen the lowly things to put to not the High and Mighty things so that no man may boast, but only God be glorified. Peace.

[BlessedByTheBest]

i only jest, childeye.

we are partly in agreement, because i don't believe i can even lift a finger to type this if not by His Divine Providence, but at the least, i am given the illusion of that liberty by which i will be judged.

the tares will be righteously punished because they willingly chose to be slaves to sin.

Interesting. Please expound.

sure, thank you for your interest in my views.

well, i believe i have already expressed this to you in other words... i don't believe my apparent free will is potent enough to cause any true change in this world, because the origin of the power made manifest through me is not mine.

my supposed will can be broken, as was proven to me upon being born again as a new creature through Christ Jesus.

i do not even own myself, for i was purchased at a price.

to assume i possess anything that i am not merely a steward of is folly. so in this sense, we are in agreement, partly.

but i am, at the least, given the illusion of that liberty upon this grand stage of Creation, wherein the wheat is separated from the chaff.

is it not within your purview to choose righteousness over wickedness?

as for my second statement, those who have formally rejected Jesus Christ in their hearts, have done so willfully and whether or not they are blinded to the Truth by deception is irrelevant.. because their blindness is by choice.

those who are slaves to sin knowing very well who their master is, willingly choose that slavery to the whims of their flesh, and are without excuse.

willing participants who happily exercise wickedness, and knowingly reject righteousness.

Adam and Eve were not cursed for their ignorance of the serpent's subtlety, they were cursed for their disobedience, and exiled from paradise. they failed their test.

those prudent enough to truthfully seek, love and worship the Lord Jesus Christ through all tests of patience, will surely find sufficient oil within their lamps in their weakest hour.

and the same are those who must be willing to assist the weaker brethren in their walk. Paul would have traded in his salvation for the salvation of another. that love is pure.

but those lacking in True love and faith will be exposed, and cast into outer darkness because God knows the wickedness that brews within the hearts of men, and He is Holy and Just.

it is the Father's will that all come to salvation and the knowledge of His Son, and His everlasting mercy is made manifest upon that Cross.

and so your promoting of forgiveness is justified, in that we are to approach all matters concerning each other in the same loving kindness our Father has displayed for us.

but i believe that willful disobedience must be appropriately defined.

we are all sinners, but we are all imparted the power to overcome sin by He who is All-Powerful, and so sin should be judged as what it exactly is. Sin.

love to you.

[OneLight]

Since this is a long post with already a lot of quotes, I will need to break it up.

You really need to spend more time in scripture. My explanation is the very basics of understand the time of Christ and the religious system that was in place..

The religious system of the time was through the laws of Moses. And the law is recognized as a form of righteousness for those who are obedient to it. So I agree with that assessment. They are blind to the righteousness that comes by faith. And here freewill is an issue. For it was presumed that God had given the law because He expected men to keep it wherefore if any man did not, then it was by his choice not to. Hence God said, I set before you Life or death, choose Life. But that was the Old Testament which was in the letter. In the New Testament however, the law is seen as a means to make sin known, implying that men could not keep it of their own righteousness due to weakness (infirmity) of the flesh. Paul testifies that through the law sin was empowered rather than diminished, because although men may agree with the law and would choose to keep it, they only failed and were instead condemned to death by it, because although the law was spiritual, it was not by faith. So it is revealed that sin and righteousness is not a matter of choice, but a matter of grace through faith in the Christ, a spiritual necessity. Consequently in Christ, we are obligated to forgive others their sin so as to be forgiven for ours. Also because we are under grace sin loses power over us even as we believe unto righteousness not counting it as our own.

Free will is always an issue in our lives. The law, whether or not it is in the OT or NT, always pointed to sin, and I agree that man could never find themselves sinless through the law, though the law was perfect. Free will, or the ability to choose, is part of choosing to sin or not, while salvation is by grace through faith. You are trying to merge two concepts, which cannot be dome and remain scriptural.

[OneLight]

There are times when we do act out of ignorance, but that does not excuse us of our wrong doing. There may come a time when we willfully lie to save a life, but that does not mean we did not lie. There is a difference between why we do what we do and what we do, though they are connected.

Yes, I agree we are not excused for our wrong doing when in Christ. And there is a distinction to be made between those who are in Christ and those who are yet slaves to sin. Nonetheless, the walk out of darkness is not an instant one for most Christians. The power of sin over our wills diminishes as we forgive others. That is my experience. The less we seek righteousness through the works of the law, the less power sin has over our wills. The more we believe that God is our Light and it is not of ourselves, the more righteous we become. As God said, My strength is made perfect in weakness.

The hold sin has over us diminishes because our faith in Him grows. Though forgiveness is part, it is not the whole reason.

[OneLight]

I agree, we do not sin because of free will, but because of the desires of the heart.

Thank you for this. I might add the desires of the heart that are ungodly are there because of vanity.

Though vanity is part, it is not the whole reason. We can find a partial list in Galatians 5:19-21

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Fez]

I blame the will of the flesh for sin. The one option that is missing amongst your choices. I've already answered this. What I have against freewill is that it does not esteem God as our Light. I blame the devil for this lie, that god is not trustworthy and men can choose a seperate path because they are their own independent beings.

The fact remains, Jesus gave his life so that sins can be forgiven, not so that people can be blamed...Therefore I can see from which way the Light is shining and therefore see which way is darkness. Forgiving is headed toward the Light, condemning is into the darkness.

God is my Savior and my King, he is my Lord and my Maker, He is my Redeemer and He is my light. He is the light I persevere to live by and emulate.

I have the free will to state this, and I have the free will to reject it. That I chose Him when he knocked was a matter of free will, free will He knew I would exercise before I was born.

I am not a robot. God does not do robots. Robots have no free will, robots only do....

Robots follow a set pattern of instructions, a set of laws if you will, and they are able to do this even in darkness.

Thing is, having no free will, they don't know the difference between freedom and just doing.........

I am not a robot. I have a family, a couple of dogs. I feel emotions, I cry, I laugh, I have a soul etc... I am a man no better no lesser than you and made from the same lump of clay. The difference between what you believe and I believe is that I see no choice but to serve God, I desire no choice but to serve God. All things began in a holy and pure of heart servitude to God because He was honored as trustworthy, not because we chose to... He is my Light and my Life, (my sentience). I lost that once in Adam and I got it back in Christ. I didn't choose the Christ, I believed in the Christ. Upon the revelation of him, I believed because the remnant of the Word of God in my heart recognized the Word come in the flesh. I therefore could not do otherwise. To consider that I have the option to reject God, is ignorance of God, vanity, and a lie of the devil. There is no I believe today but I may not believe tomorrow. Either God is trustworthy or He is not, there is no in between. The faithful do not do unfaithfulness.

I didn't choose the Christ, I believed in the Christ.

Ahhh...Free will at work then!

[OneLight]

The process of sinning is through our free will as we chose to sin. Your understanding of what free will is not the correct understanding and that is what I have been spending days trying to show you. For some reason, you think having a free will diminishes God, it does not.

I understand what your intentions are. You have made it loud and clear. You do not want people to think it is okay to sin, particularly and especially in Christ. I have seen many forms and degrees of a moral freewill. Mostly they describe some gray area where God and sin become a man's prerogative to choose between. I acknowedge man's ability to reason but discard the idea that Love is at one's discretion.

There is still a little difference. Nothing of God is by our free will, nothing. Our free will is the ability to choose which road we travel down. Free will does not change anything God has for us, nor does it create. We are not robots or puppets where we are not able to decide for ourselves.