doubting_tommy Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 My understanding is that the view of the Catholic Church (I'm not as familiar with other denominations) is that homosexuality itself is not sinful, but to act on it is. It always seemed unfair to me to think that God would create some people naturally inclined towards sinning in a way that others are not, which is what seems to be implied by the Catholic view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 What do you mean by "being gay"? There is the behavior/acts, then there is the temptation/urges if you will, which one are you referring to? The behavior follows the desire or urge. The behavior that produces the action is as sinful as the act, itself. The Bible teaches that lusting after a woman is just as sinful as if you carried the act out with her in real life. Not only are we required not to avoid committing the sin, we are not to have anything in our heart that would prompt it. It is not a sin to be tempted, but it is a sin to entertain it. Entertaining homosexual urges is as sinful as carrying it out in the flesh. Think of it like this: Wouldn't you have a problem with a person who has a desire to molest your child, even if they haven't acted on it yet? To clarify what the OP article said, they do not think it is sinful to recognize that their sexual orientation (IOW what type of sexual temptations they have) is homosexual, but to act on them is, thus the celibacy. Homosexuality isn't an orientation. It is a spiritual stronghold. It is a sin. There are no orientations toward some kind of sexual bent. Heard of "NAMBLA?" It is an advocacy groups for pedofiles who argue that men who prefer young boys are no different than gays from the standpoint that they have a certain orientation towards them. God made them that way. They are using the same line of argumentation that the gays have used for years. Today, the suggestion is as repugnant as it was 30 years ago when the gays started making that argument. But, now we have had another generation that has grown up hearing terms like "sexual oriengation" and "gay rights" and the notion of homosexuals isn't offensive any more. It is accepted as normal. Give NAMBLA about 30 more years and pretty soon, what we call "pedophilia" today, will be decriminalized and viewed as normal by another generation of dumb, liberal young people who will raised with it being shoved in their face day in and day out. I believe they remain celibate because they don't want to engage in homosexual activities which they find sinful, and although they could go out and find someone of the opposite gender it simply doesn't interest them because they are gay, as that's what gay means. So the only option left is celibacy. Celibacy doesn't work. Those who think it will are only fooling themselves. Besides, if they fall to the urge from time to time, they would never tell. There are scores of cases where priests in the Catholic church have violated their vows of celibacy. I think people are confusing celibacy with abstenance. Abastaining from sex to remain sexual pure for one's future spouse is scriptural. Celibacy isn't. Celibacy is a form of asceticism held over from the middle ages. How is celibacy a meaningless act in this specific case? For them celibacy is the only sure way to stay clear of that sin, unless you're saying that merely by having same sex temptations is a sin. It is a meaningless act, because it provides no impediment to committing sexual sin. If the purpose is to become sexual pure, then the first thing they need to do is recognize that homosexuality is not an orientation. It is a sin and spiritual stronghold over their lives that must be broken. Secondly, they need to filled by and led by the Holy Spirit. No amount of will power or behavioral modification can overcome the sinful fleshly desires we all have. Only the Holy Spirit can accomplish that. But one has to be genuine believer in order for the Holy Spirit to indwell and control their lives. If one is gay and feels that this is not a sin that needs to be repented of, then he cannot become a genuine follower of Jesus. To use an analogy, it sounds like you're saying an alcoholic abstaining from alcohol is meaningless on a spiritual level. Sure the Bible doesn't say to be celibate or never have a glass of wine, but to paraphrase Paul we each have our own thorns and what's allowed and not allowed is different for different people.That is a sloppy paraphrase of Paul. Paul was referring to issues of conscience. Paul was not saying that sin is relative. An alcoholic trying to keep from drinking on his own power may or may not be successful over time. The problem is that if he is doing it to avoid sin, it doesn't put him in a better place with God. Christianity is a transformational and personal encounter with Jesus. It isn't merely accepting a set of propositional truths and trying to turn over a new leaf. Doing all the right things doesn't win any points with God. No one is going to heaven because they did the right things. It simply doesn't work that way. Salvation is a work of God and only God can truly change a person. Jesus can transform an alcoholic into a new creation and the old alcoholism is passed away. The alcoholic simply trying to stay sober is still an alcoholic and will be till he dies if he remains as he is. Jesus can transform a gay person into a child of God. He can take away those desires and create a new heart with a new set of desires and wants that are entirely different than what they had before. My prayer is that homosexuals will find Jesus and get what they really need which is a transformed and re-created heart and they will find true peace, wholeness and fulfillment in Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 My understanding is that the view of the Catholic Church (I'm not as familiar with other denominations) is that homosexuality itself is not sinful, but to act on it is. It always seemed unfair to me to think that God would create some people naturally inclined towards sinning in a way that others are not, which is what seems to be implied by the Catholic view. God doesn't make people gay. Studies have shown that many gay people have been molested as children and were exposed to sexual sin in the early stages of their sexual development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubting_tommy Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 264 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/19/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 God doesn't make people gay. Studies have shown that many gay people have been molested as children and were exposed to sexual sin in the early stages of their sexual development. I'm skeptical of that claim. Could you provide a link to one of these studies? Do you think the fact that the Catholic view implies that God does make people gay is evidence against the plausibility of that view? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted May 25, 2013 If they choose to do it this way and abstain, then good for them. I think they deserve their salvation. No. They do not "deserve" salvation. They are not Christians to start with. Salvation is a gift, not a reward or a prize. No one deserves it. I disagree shiloh.God loves each and everyone of us homosexual or not.If a homosexual makes a tough choice to be obedient to Him and be celeibate then I think they are making Godly choices.I pray that God will give them the strength to continue that choice. The Godly choice is to repent of homosexuality completely. If they were being obedient, they would repent and abominate that immoral lifestyle. These people, according to the OP, don't see being gay as a sin and they are still gay but choosing celibacy. Celibacy is not a godly choice because God doesn't command Christians to be celibate. That is a personal choice, not a godly one. A genuine believer would not be gay, or in any seek to condone homosexuality. There are no gay Christians. That is a contradiction in terms. There are ex-gays who are believers who struggle with temptaton and are truly seeking to serve God. But the examples in the OP are not Christians. They may be religious, but they are not Christians. You call yourself a christian, yet you take it upon yourself to condemn people who don't see things your way. The smart money would go to heeding the word of Jesus and not those who claim to follow Him. We don't need any religious bullies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 If they choose to do it this way and abstain, then good for them. I think they deserve their salvation. No. They do not "deserve" salvation. They are not Christians to start with. Salvation is a gift, not a reward or a prize. No one deserves it. I disagree shiloh.God loves each and everyone of us homosexual or not.If a homosexual makes a tough choice to be obedient to Him and be celeibate then I think they are making Godly choices.I pray that God will give them the strength to continue that choice. The Godly choice is to repent of homosexuality completely. If they were being obedient, they would repent and abominate that immoral lifestyle. These people, according to the OP, don't see being gay as a sin and they are still gay but choosing celibacy. Celibacy is not a godly choice because God doesn't command Christians to be celibate. That is a personal choice, not a godly one. A genuine believer would not be gay, or in any seek to condone homosexuality. There are no gay Christians. That is a contradiction in terms. There are ex-gays who are believers who struggle with temptaton and are truly seeking to serve God. But the examples in the OP are not Christians. They may be religious, but they are not Christians. You call yourself a christian, yet you take it upon yourself to condemn people who don't see things your way. The smart money would go to heeding the word of Jesus and not those who claim to follow Him. We don't need any religious bullies No, I condemn the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. I am sorry that it is just more honesty and truth than you can bring yourself to face up to. The fact is that being gay is a sin. That doesn't mean I am bully for saying so. It simply means I won't be bullied into compromising the truth to satisfy the whims and hypersensitivity of those who reject a bibilical worldview. There are no gay Christians and if you can't accept that, it is between you and Lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerioke Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 97 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,850 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 128 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/19/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/11/1911 Share Posted May 25, 2013 If they choose to do it this way and abstain, then good for them. I think they deserve their salvation. No. They do not "deserve" salvation. They are not Christians to start with. Salvation is a gift, not a reward or a prize. No one deserves it. I disagree shiloh.God loves each and everyone of us homosexual or not.If a homosexual makes a tough choice to be obedient to Him and be celeibate then I think they are making Godly choices.I pray that God will give them the strength to continue that choice. The Godly choice is to repent of homosexuality completely. If they were being obedient, they would repent and abominate that immoral lifestyle. These people, according to the OP, don't see being gay as a sin and they are still gay but choosing celibacy. Celibacy is not a godly choice because God doesn't command Christians to be celibate. That is a personal choice, not a godly one. A genuine believer would not be gay, or in any seek to condone homosexuality. There are no gay Christians. That is a contradiction in terms. There are ex-gays who are believers who struggle with temptaton and are truly seeking to serve God. But the examples in the OP are not Christians. They may be religious, but they are not Christians. You call yourself a christian, yet you take it upon yourself to condemn people who don't see things your way. The smart money would go to heeding the word of Jesus and not those who claim to follow Him. We don't need any religious bullies No, I condemn the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. I am sorry that it is just more honesty and truth than you can bring yourself to face up to. The fact is that being gay is a sin. That doesn't mean I am bully for saying so. It simply means I won't be bullied into compromising the truth to satisfy the whims and hypersensitivity of those who reject a bibilical worldview. There are no gay Christians and if you can't accept that, it is between you and Lord. 1 Corinthians :9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers --- in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching. 11 This accords with the glorious gospel of the blessed God that was entrusted to me. Show me were it says the passive homosexual is doomed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarmRoom Posted May 25, 2013 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 141 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 24 Days Won: 2 Joined: 05/21/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted May 25, 2013 (edited) Thank you for clarifying your position shilo its good to see that you stand up to your beliefs I actually commend you on it. However all of what your a saying in regards to homosexuality really has no biblical foundation. It has as much substance as heterosexuality is a spiritual stronghold for sin since if you have sexual feelings for people of the opposite sex your still living in sin. Whether its hetero or homo its still a sin there is no real difference there. Secondly I also find a problem in your review of the scientific evidence. Not all science contradicts the bible and in the case of homosexuality there is no contradiction either. there is such a thing as sexual orientation it is genetic. Our best evidence suggests that our sexual orientation is set by the age of 3. Sexual orientation is not reversible both the APA states that any attempt to reverse this orientation can cause SEVERE mental harm. Also living in sin does not make you less of a Christian than anyone else. lets examine the basic requirements to be considered a Christian accept jesus as Christ repent and be baptized. The fact is that you cannot support your claims using the bible can you? instead of spouting out your proclamations as truth you should be very careful of spreading false doctrines of the bible 2nd peter 2:3 "In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." the bible is clear don't spread false doctrines so umm don't do it. its bad like really bad. back up your "truth" with the bible so we can be sure your not spreading information given to you by false teachers. When you claim to represent truth in the bible you need to back it up with the bible just saying Edited May 25, 2013 by WarmRoom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 Thank you for clarifying your position shilo its good to see that you stand up to your beliefs I actually commend you on it. However all of what your a saying in regards to homosexuality really has no biblical foundation. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. (Lev 18:22) If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. (Lev 20:13) For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. (Rom 1:26-27) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, (1Co 6:9) understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, (1Ti 1:9-10) Yeah, I would say my position has a lot of good biblical foundation. It has as much substance as heterosexuality is a spiritual stronghold for sin since if you have sexual feelings for people of the opposite sex your still living in sin.Whether its hetero or homo its still a sin there is no real difference there. God created sexual desire. He hardwired it into humanity. Sin has caused it to be perverted into an unnatural thing like homosexuality. It is not a sin to see a member of the opposite sex and be sexually attracted to them. That means your normal. But that desire is to maintained in purity and not in impurity to the point that one is lusting or having unnatural desires and fantasies. So no, having a sexual desire doesn't mean you are living sin, just so long as you are carrying that desire in the godly manner prescribed in Scripture. Secondly I also find a problem in your review of the scientific evidence. Not all science contradicts the bible and in the case of homosexuality there is no contradiction either. there is such a thing as sexual orientation it is genetic. Yeah, that is so 1990's. Our best evidence suggests that our sexual orientation is set by the age of 3. Sexual orientation is not reversible both the APA states that any attempt to reverse this orientation can cause SEVERE mental harm. The problem is that there are many people who were former homosexuals who have come to know Christ and they are now married and have raised children in well-adjusted Christian homes. They left being gay behind because Jesus changed them and there was no harm done to them whatsoever. An encounter with Jesus can transform any life. Also living in sin does not make you less of a Christian than anyone else. lets examine the basic requirements to be considered a Christian accept jesus as Christ repent and be baptized. But if you repented, you would not be living in sin in the first place. Living in sin is the sure fire way to know that some isn't a true Christian. To repent means to go the opposite way. It is change of mind and a rejection of sin. So how can a repentant person continue living in sin. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. Furthermore, a true Christian follows Christ and lives by Scripture. The Bible is our blue print for living and it categorically condemns homoseuxal behavior, as you can see above. A true Christian is a transformed person with a new and sincere desire to serve Jesus. The fact is that you cannot support your claims using the bible can you? LOL see above. instead of spouting out your proclamations as truth you should be very careful of spreading false doctrines of the bible 2nd peter 2:3 "In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping." the bible is clear don't spread false doctrines so umm don't do it. its bad like really bad. back up your "truth" with the bible so we can be sure your not spreading information given to you by false teachers. When you claim to represent truth in the bible you need to back it up with the bible just saying I am not spreading any kind of false doctrine and you are not really qualifed to lecture me on the Bible. I have backed up my claims with the Bible. None of your claims can be backed up with Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted May 25, 2013 Share Posted May 25, 2013 If they choose to do it this way and abstain, then good for them. I think they deserve their salvation. No. They do not "deserve" salvation. They are not Christians to start with. Salvation is a gift, not a reward or a prize. No one deserves it. I disagree shiloh.God loves each and everyone of us homosexual or not.If a homosexual makes a tough choice to be obedient to Him and be celeibate then I think they are making Godly choices.I pray that God will give them the strength to continue that choice. The Godly choice is to repent of homosexuality completely. If they were being obedient, they would repent and abominate that immoral lifestyle. These people, according to the OP, don't see being gay as a sin and they are still gay but choosing celibacy. Celibacy is not a godly choice because God doesn't command Christians to be celibate. That is a personal choice, not a godly one. A genuine believer would not be gay, or in any seek to condone homosexuality. There are no gay Christians. That is a contradiction in terms. There are ex-gays who are believers who struggle with temptaton and are truly seeking to serve God. But the examples in the OP are not Christians. They may be religious, but they are not Christians. You call yourself a christian, yet you take it upon yourself to condemn people who don't see things your way. The smart money would go to heeding the word of Jesus and not those who claim to follow Him. We don't need any religious bullies No, I condemn the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality. I am sorry that it is just more honesty and truth than you can bring yourself to face up to. The fact is that being gay is a sin. That doesn't mean I am bully for saying so. It simply means I won't be bullied into compromising the truth to satisfy the whims and hypersensitivity of those who reject a bibilical worldview. There are no gay Christians and if you can't accept that, it is between you and Lord. 1 Corinthians :9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 1 Timothy 1: 8 But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately, 9 realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers --- in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching. 11 This accords with the glorious gospel of the blessed God that was entrusted to me. Show me were it says the passive homosexual is doomed Sin begins in the heart long before it is carried out in the flesh. Jesus said that lusting in the heart was no different than committing adultery. It is just as wrong to want to murder someone as it is to actually murder them, according to Jesus. So the passive gay person who simply doesn't act on his desires is still guilty. As long as he justified his sin, as long as he refuses to repent, he is still under God's jugdment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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