questioner2 Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2013 (edited) In Isaiah 14, the KJV, it says, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt mythroneabove the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit." The problem is, both the NIV and the NASB translate Lucifer, aka satan, as Morning Star! So what is to be done with Revelation 22:16? It says,"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these thigns in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." If Jesus is the morning star then he is lucifer and satan according to a comparison to Isaiah 14. Now I have seen both Jesus and satan in visions and dreams, and I assure you that they are not one and the same person. However, if I am going to take all of the Bible as the inspired word of God, I would have to believe that Jesus was satan, and I have chosen instead to disregard Revelation 22:16 as having been added by someone, and I am not sure I can even accep the book of Revelationis inspired. Which deals with the next thing. The threat of Revelation 22:19 is that unless I accept the book of Revelation and this idea that Jesus is satan along with it, I will have my name taken out of the Book of LIfe and will have no part in the holy city. So I am asking if there is any way in your thinking that I can honeslty accept the whole of the book of Revelation when Revelation 22:16 puts forth the idea that it does. Salvation is based on confessing Jesus as Lord and believing that God raised him from the dead, according to Romans 10:9-10. Does this not contradict Revelation 22:19 if I both confess Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Him from the dead and yet reject this verse in Revelation? Which brings up something else. If I reject one verse or one book in the Bible, where does it stop? Do I just pick and choose what verses and books to believe in? HELP! Edited June 11, 2013 by questioner2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2013 Actually, the phrase give is son of the dawn, not star of the morning, if you look at the original text. http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa14.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willa Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 68 Topic Count: 186 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 14,242 Content Per Day: 3.33 Reputation: 16,658 Days Won: 30 Joined: 08/14/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2013 The name Lucifer means light carrier in the Latin, although I took Latin 55 years ago. Luce means light and ferro means to carry, or something close. One says the litteral is bright son of daybreak. There is much difficulty in translation, which we who have taken foreign language understand more than those who have not. That is why most churches affirm adherance to the original language. It does not negate that Christ is the brilliant aster (star) of the morning, indicating Venus, symbolicly, since venus is really a planet. We are told that Satan can transform himself into an angel of light. It does not cause me a problem that these two names are close, but not the same. If there has been a genuine change in your life you would not doubt that Jesus is real and a good and merciful God. If you only had an intellectual belief but had not really trusted in Christ, your faith might easily have been shaken. I would encourage you to taste and see that the Lord is Good. Try the promises in His Word and ask Him to reveal Himself to you in a personal, experiential way that confirms His Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questioner2 Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 11, 2013 This brings up my next question. I have always thought that the Bible must be inspired because God would not allow His word to be compromised, and that He would preserve HIs word in any language or translation that it was given in. But clearly, the NIV and NASB translate Lucifer in Isaiah 14 as "morning star". Is this a mistranslation, and if so, why would God allow His word to be mistranslated like that, especially when the conclusion is so nasty? My faith in Jesus is not shaken. I know and have tasted that He is good. What is shaken in me is my faith in the veracity of the book of Revelation as inspired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayyycuuup Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,384 Content Per Day: 0.37 Reputation: 155 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/20/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1996 Share Posted June 11, 2013 The point Allan brings up I think is great. Something I found interesting though, is that in Isaiah, lucifer is notified as the "morning star" but Christ is called the "Morning Star." I wonder if it differentiates like it does with "god" and "God." Being that Satan is the anti-christ, and the Messiah is the Christ, it to me, makes sense. Satan is the "ideal" (for lack of a better word) opposition to Christ- being the opposite of all things Holy and Worthy. Revelations 22:18-19 gives a clear depiction of what will become of those who try to distort the word of God. This plays a large role into those who have itching ears., Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 11, 2013 Share Posted June 11, 2013 Talking But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. Matthew 15:18-20 Walking And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Luke 4:4 ~ This brings up my next question. I have always thought that the Bible must be inspired because God would not allow His word to be compromised, and that He would preserve HIs word in any language or translation that it was given in. But clearly, the NIV and NASB translate Lucifer in Isaiah 14 as "morning star". Is this a mistranslation, and if so, why would God allow His word to be mistranslated like that, especially when the conclusion is so nasty? My faith in Jesus is not shaken. I know and have tasted that He is good. What is shaken in me is my faith in the veracity of the book of Revelation as inspired. ~ Who Is The LORD That Satan Strives To Become? How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. Isaiah 14:12-15 And Why Would You Walk Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee. Psalms 119:11 His Walk Anyway? Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Hebrews 3:12 ~ Believe For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 And Be Blessed Beloved Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever. Psalms 119:160 Love, Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 11, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 11, 2013 This brings up my next question. I have always thought that the Bible must be inspired because God would not allow His word to be compromised, and that He would preserve HIs word in any language or translation that it was given in. But clearly, the NIV and NASB translate Lucifer in Isaiah 14 as "morning star". Is this a mistranslation, and if so, why would God allow His word to be mistranslated like that, especially when the conclusion is so nasty? My faith in Jesus is not shaken. I know and have tasted that He is good. What is shaken in me is my faith in the veracity of the book of Revelation as inspired. Perhaps a study in how today's bibles were translated is in line with what you ask? This is why I return to the copies of the originals and allow the Holy Spirit to guide me in my studies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questioner2 Posted June 12, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 I'm thinking maybe there was a deliberate distortion of these things in the NIV and the NASB. As such I don't think I can trust them or any other translation than the KJV, or else a look at the original Greek and Hebrew. It is a good point however that if satan is referred to as the morning star and Jesus as the Morning Star that Jesus is the genuine and satan is the fake. I think this is a good way of looking at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted June 12, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted June 12, 2013 I'm thinking maybe there was a deliberate distortion of these things in the NIV and the NASB. As such I don't think I can trust them or any other translation than the KJV, or else a look at the original Greek and Hebrew. It is a good point however that if satan is referred to as the morning star and Jesus as the Morning Star that Jesus is the genuine and satan is the fake. I think this is a good way of looking at it. Even the KJV has issues, but the Holy Spirit never gives you the wrong answer. As I suggested before, go back tot he originals and allow Him to teach you for a deeper walk in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questioner2 Posted June 12, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/10/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 12, 2013 btw, I've never had an issue with the KJV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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