wonby1 Posted June 21, 2013 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/19/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2013 Daniel made a calendar for the coming of the Messiah. Where is it in Daniel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted June 21, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,992 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,690 Content Per Day: 11.78 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 21, 2013 Daniel 9.I think that is as far as we should go as to trying to date set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonby1 Posted June 22, 2013 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 58 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/19/2013 Status: Offline Author Share Posted June 22, 2013 Daniel 9.I think that is as far as we should go as to trying to date set. Very good. In Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel provides us with a calendar for the coming of Jesus some 500 years later. I find it to be one of the most astounding prophesies in the Bible. I also have found it be a nice witnessing tool. After all, there is no debate the Daniel was written some 500 years before Jesus came on the scene and there is no dispute that Daniel provided us with a calendar for his coming. The main problem most have is understanding the terminology in the text. Daniel does not describe the passage of time using our own verbiage and calendars. However, the Rabbinical Jews calculated to the time of Jesus as written in their Talmud. Most probably don't know this, but the common man was forbidden to calculate the verse in question on the premise that they might be "misled" because they rejected Jesus as Messiah. Instead, the Rabbis say that the Messiah tarries because of the sinfulness of Israel. In other words, the Messiah did not come when he was suppose to as pointed at in Daniel during the time of Jesus because of the sinfulness of Israel. The problem with that is, I don't recall God ever changing his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micheal Westin Posted June 25, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 13 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 616 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 96 Days Won: 3 Joined: 03/07/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2013 Daniel 9.I think that is as far as we should go as to trying to date set. Very good. In Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel provides us with a calendar for the coming of Jesus some 500 years later. I find it to be one of the most astounding prophesies in the Bible. I also have found it be a nice witnessing tool. After all, there is no debate the Daniel was written some 500 years before Jesus came on the scene and there is no dispute that Daniel provided us with a calendar for his coming. The main problem most have is understanding the terminology in the text. Daniel does not describe the passage of time using our own verbiage and calendars. However, the Rabbinical Jews calculated to the time of Jesus as written in their Talmud. Most probably don't know this, but the common man was forbidden to calculate the verse in question on the premise that they might be "misled" because they rejected Jesus as Messiah. Instead, the Rabbis say that the Messiah tarries because of the sinfulness of Israel. In other words, the Messiah did not come when he was suppose to as pointed at in Daniel during the time of Jesus because of the sinfulness of Israel. The problem with that is, I don't recall God ever changing his mind. 1 kings 21:28 2 kings 20:1-6 amos 7:3 jonah 3:10 jonah 4:2 joel 2:13 isaiah 38:5 jeremiah 18:7-10......this is the best exodus 32:14 1 samuel 2:30 God changed his promise, he had promised the preisthood to aron and his decendents, and here he removed the promise from eli and his decendents apparently God has changed his mind a few times, but I am under the impression its more like a parent who knows ahead of time the choices their children make, or much like we tell them the consequences of their actions will bring such an such if they don't change behavior, and they change behavior so the consequences also change, God is never surprised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlelambseativy Posted June 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 230 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 4,941 Content Per Day: 0.95 Reputation: 2,003 Days Won: 14 Joined: 02/08/2010 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2013 In Malachi God says 'I am the Lord I do not change' - I would take that to mean His mind also. Man changes and God in His foreknowledge planned for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted June 25, 2013 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted June 25, 2013 Daniel 9.I think that is as far as we should go as to trying to date set. Very good. In Daniel 9:24-27, Daniel provides us with a calendar for the coming of Jesus some 500 years later. I find it to be one of the most astounding prophesies in the Bible. I also have found it be a nice witnessing tool. After all, there is no debate the Daniel was written some 500 years before Jesus came on the scene and there is no dispute that Daniel provided us with a calendar for his coming. The main problem most have is understanding the terminology in the text. Daniel does not describe the passage of time using our own verbiage and calendars. However, the Rabbinical Jews calculated to the time of Jesus as written in their Talmud. Most probably don't know this, but the common man was forbidden to calculate the verse in question on the premise that they might be "misled" because they rejected Jesus as Messiah. Instead, the Rabbis say that the Messiah tarries because of the sinfulness of Israel. In other words, the Messiah did not come when he was suppose to as pointed at in Daniel during the time of Jesus because of the sinfulness of Israel. The problem with that is, I don't recall God ever changing his mind. At the time of Jesus, it was a time when the Rabbis thought the Messiah would come. During the Messianic fervor, several people were considered possibly the Messiah. This ended when a lead Rabbi of that time thought Bar Kokba was the Messiah. Bar Kockba managed to kick Rome out of Israel for a few years, but then lost the battle which resulted in the death of many Jewish people. While Bar Kockba was being promoted as the Messiah, the Messianic Jews who still lived among the Jewish people faced a huge issue. They could not follow a person being promoted as the Messiah, so they were reluctant to fight with Bar Kockba as leader. After the defeat, the Messianic Jews were viewed as traitors. That was the final break between Messianic Jews and Rabbinic Jews. But, the defeat of the Bar Kokba revolution had dire consequences to Judaism, so to avoid such future huge mistakes, the Rabbis forbid the calculation of Daniel 9, which was used to support Bar Kokba. Just remember, the Talmud is a series of discussions and debates offering all possible differing opinions. Just because it is in the Talmud does not mean Judaism actually supports the view. Also, the Talmud uses unique Jewish court style legal terminology, which requires a knowledge of this terminology to properly understand what is being said. From Sanhedrin 97b: What is meant by 'but at the end it shall speak [we-yafeah] and not lie?' — R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in the name of R. Jonathan: Blasted be the bones of those who calculate the end. For they would say, since the predetermined time has arrived, and yet he has not come, he will never come. But [even so], wait for him, as it is written, Though he tarry, wait for him. Should you say, We look forward [to his coming] but He does not: therefore Scripture saith, And therefore will the Lord wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you. But since we look forward to it, and He does likewise, what delays [his coming]? — The Attribute of Justice delays it. But since the Attribute of Justice delays it, why do we await it? — To be rewarded [for hoping], as it is written, blessed are all they that wait for him. skipping some Rab said: All the predestined dates [for redemption] have passed, and the matter [now] depends only on repentance and good deeds. But Samuel maintained: it is sufficient for a mourner to keep his [period of] mourning. This matter is disputed by Tannaim: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed; if not, they will not be redeemed. R. Joshua said to him, if they do not repent, will they not be redeemed! But the Holy One, blessed be He, will set up a king over them, whose decrees shall be as cruel as Haman's, whereby Israel shall engage in repentance, and he will thus bring them back to the right path. Another [baraitha] taught: R. Eliezer said: if Israel repent, they will be redeemed, as it is written, Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. R. Joshua said to him, But is it not written, ye have sold yourselves for naught; and ye shall be redeemed without money? Ye have sold yourselves for naught, for idolatry; and ye shall be redeemed without money — without repentance and good deeds. R. Eliezer retorted to R. Joshua, But is it not written, Return unto me, and I will return unto you? R. Joshua rejoined — But is it not written, For I am master over you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion? R. Eliezer replied, But it is written, in returning and rest shall ye be saved. R. Joshua replied, But is it not written, Thus saith the Lord, The Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nations abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Various quotes from Sanhedrin 98a: R. Hanina said: The Son of David will not come until a fish is sought for an invalid and cannot be procured, as it is written, Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil; whilst it is written, in that day will I cause the horn of the house of Israel to bud forth. R. Hama b. Hanina said: The son of David will not come until even the pettiest kingdom ceases [to have power] over Israel, as it is written, He shall both cut off the sprigs with pruning hooks, and take away and cut down the branches; and this is followed by, in that time shall the present be brought unto the Lord of hosts of a people that is scattered and peeled. Ze'iri said in R. Hanina's name: The son of David will not come until there are no conceited men in Israel, as it is written, For then I will take away out of the midst of thee them that rejoice in thy pride: which is followed by, I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall take refuge in the name of the Lord. R. Simlai said in the name of R. Eleazar, son of R. Simeon: The son of David will not come until all judges and officers are gone from Israel, as it is written, And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross and take away all thy tin: And I will restore thy judges as at first. 'Ulla said: Jerusalem shall be redeemed only by righteousness, as it is written, Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness. R. Papa said: When the haughty cease to exist [in Israel] the magi shall cease [among the Persians]; when the judges cease to exist [in Israel], the chiliarchi shall cease likewise. Now, 'when the haughty cease to exist, the magi shall also cease,' as it is written, And I will purely purge away thy haughty ones and take away all thy tin. 'When the judges cease to exist, the chiliarchi shall cease likewise, as it is written, The Lord hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy. R. Johanan said: When you see a generation ever dwindling, hope for him [the Messiah], as it is written, And the afflicted people thou wilt save. R. Johanan said: When thou seest a generation overwhelmed by many troubles as by a river, await him, as it is written, when the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him; which is followed by, And the Redeemer shall come to Zion. R. Johanan also said: The son of David will come only in a generation that is either altogether righteous or altogether wicked. 'in a generation that is altogether righteous,' — as it is written, Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever. 'Or altogether wicked,' — as it is written, And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor; and it is [elsewhere] written, For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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