Defense of the Pre-Wrath Rapture

[firestormx]

Yes, I understand your position better now. if 7 or 8 area of the graph is the mid point of the 70th week, then I'd say Christ returns to gather us to himself ( rapture ) at around 9. The 4th trumpet is eerily similar to the 6th seal, so it is very possible, that is the event described in Joel and Matthew, and I'd be less than honest if I didn't say that. However, read the verses below. 

 

Revelation 15

 

15 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

² And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark^[a]and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. ³ They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

“Great and marvelous are Your works,
Lord God Almighty!
Just and true are Your ways,
O King of the saints!^[b]
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

⁵ After these things I looked, and behold,^[c]the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened. ⁶ And out of the temple came the seven angels having the seven plagues, clothed in pure bright linen, and having their chests girded with golden bands. ⁷ Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. ⁸ The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.

 

A couple things about this. 1. I have always taken notice of how it keeps saying the complete or full wrath of God is in these vials. 2. this is happening in heaven. If we are not in heaven by this point, then who exactly is it saying can't enter the temple?  It's very possible that we are here until the 4th trumpet.

 

Revelation 9: 1-4

 

9 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. ² And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit. ³ Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. ⁴ They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

 

 

The 5th trumpet, if you read it carefully, it says they can't hurt any person with the seal of God in there forehead. If we are still here, then we are not sealed. Only the 144,000 Jews were sealed. If we are still here at this point, then why is there no mention here or before about us being sealed?

 

I'll stop here for now, and add as we go.

[Guest]

Some interesting stuff, there, I will look and think it over more thoroughly when I have time, which does not happen to be right now.

 

By the way, if you want to drag the graphic along at any time so we do not have to go page to a previous message to reference,

 

I think if you type:

 

 

If the graphic appears below, then the above is correct.

 

 

[Elhanan]

 

One potential problem with the pre-wrath position is that it posits that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal when the saints at that time will all be raptured at once.  However, closer examination of the Greek text reads that in Rev 7:14 the ones are "coming out" of the affliction. Most Bibles read that they have "come out" which conveys the past tense, a punctiliar singular event. Coming out on the other hand indicates a gradual, one by one process.  This leaves the possibility that the rapture here is not being described at all but rather describing the saints entering heaven one by one as they are martyred. I have not taken the time to examine the actual Greek verb tense though - just happened to skim my interlinear.

Interesting point to investigate, I also have not tried to sort that out in the Greek, but in English, the point is not that solid.

 

For example, if it were Jan 1st, and you were describing the previous 2 weeks, it might be possible that you wife returned items to the Mall, and returned home on Dec 31. Your kids might have been there two days prior, and then returned. Perhaps you neighbor did some window shopping in the 20th, and returned home.

 

You might say that last year, your wife, your kids, and your neighber were all at the mall, but they came out. It is not necessary to see that as a singular event, right?

 

No, I don't think so. The Greek tense conveys the sense that what is being described is a present, continuous and ongoing event - not something that happened just once as in a singular rapture event.  Therefore if true this casts doubt as to whether the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal.  My ability to determine Greek tenses, moods, voices etc. is poor.  Here are two links that shed some light on the interpretation of "ercomenoi."  

http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/revelation/revelation-7-14.html

 

http://www.lectionarystudies.com/studyn/easter3cen.html

[firestormx]

 

 

One potential problem with the pre-wrath position is that it posits that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal when the saints at that time will all be raptured at once.  However, closer examination of the Greek text reads that in Rev 7:14 the ones are "coming out" of the affliction. Most Bibles read that they have "come out" which conveys the past tense, a punctiliar singular event. Coming out on the other hand indicates a gradual, one by one process.  This leaves the possibility that the rapture here is not being described at all but rather describing the saints entering heaven one by one as they are martyred. I have not taken the time to examine the actual Greek verb tense though - just happened to skim my interlinear.

Interesting point to investigate, I also have not tried to sort that out in the Greek, but in English, the point is not that solid.

 

For example, if it were Jan 1st, and you were describing the previous 2 weeks, it might be possible that you wife returned items to the Mall, and returned home on Dec 31. Your kids might have been there two days prior, and then returned. Perhaps you neighbor did some window shopping in the 20th, and returned home.

 

You might say that last year, your wife, your kids, and your neighber were all at the mall, but they came out. It is not necessary to see that as a singular event, right?

 

No, I don't think so. The Greek tense conveys the sense that what is being described is a present, continuous and ongoing event - not something that happened just once as in a singular rapture event.  Therefore if true this casts doubt as to whether the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal.  My ability to determine Greek tenses, moods, voices etc. is poor.  Here are two links that shed some light on the interpretation of "ercomenoi."  

http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/revelation/revelation-7-14.html

 

http://www.lectionarystudies.com/studyn/easter3cen.html

 

In my opinion  your confusing 2 different subjects. Please let me explain. The church is raptured, right around the time the 144,000 are sealed. After the 6th seal. The Israelites and the 144,000 will still be the enemies of the anti-Christ and will still be hunted and tortured and killed for the faith. Just like anyone who believes there report, and turns to Jesus as Lord and savior, will be hunted as well. These are who it's talking about.

[Elhanan]

 

 

 

One potential problem with the pre-wrath position is that it posits that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal when the saints at that time will all be raptured at once.  However, closer examination of the Greek text reads that in Rev 7:14 the ones are "coming out" of the affliction. Most Bibles read that they have "come out" which conveys the past tense, a punctiliar singular event. Coming out on the other hand indicates a gradual, one by one process.  This leaves the possibility that the rapture here is not being described at all but rather describing the saints entering heaven one by one as they are martyred. I have not taken the time to examine the actual Greek verb tense though - just happened to skim my interlinear.

Interesting point to investigate, I also have not tried to sort that out in the Greek, but in English, the point is not that solid.

 

For example, if it were Jan 1st, and you were describing the previous 2 weeks, it might be possible that you wife returned items to the Mall, and returned home on Dec 31. Your kids might have been there two days prior, and then returned. Perhaps you neighbor did some window shopping in the 20th, and returned home.

 

You might say that last year, your wife, your kids, and your neighber were all at the mall, but they came out. It is not necessary to see that as a singular event, right?

 

No, I don't think so. The Greek tense conveys the sense that what is being described is a present, continuous and ongoing event - not something that happened just once as in a singular rapture event.  Therefore if true this casts doubt as to whether the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal.  My ability to determine Greek tenses, moods, voices etc. is poor.  Here are two links that shed some light on the interpretation of "ercomenoi."  

http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/revelation/revelation-7-14.html

 

http://www.lectionarystudies.com/studyn/easter3cen.html

 

In my opinion  your confusing 2 different subjects. Please let me explain. The church is raptured, right around the time the 144,000 are sealed. After the 6th seal. The Israelites and the 144,000 will still be the enemies of the anti-Christ and will still be hunted and tortured and killed for the faith. Just like anyone who believes there report, and turns to Jesus as Lord and savior, will be hunted as well. These are who it's talking about.

 

If you are referring to the great multitude described in Rev 7:9 -then yes we disagree as to their identity.  The prewrath view identifies this multitude as those in the church who were raptured so I don't understand why you would identify them as Israel, especially since they come from "every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages."

[firestormx]

 

 

 

 

One potential problem with the pre-wrath position is that it posits that the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal when the saints at that time will all be raptured at once.  However, closer examination of the Greek text reads that in Rev 7:14 the ones are "coming out" of the affliction. Most Bibles read that they have "come out" which conveys the past tense, a punctiliar singular event. Coming out on the other hand indicates a gradual, one by one process.  This leaves the possibility that the rapture here is not being described at all but rather describing the saints entering heaven one by one as they are martyred. I have not taken the time to examine the actual Greek verb tense though - just happened to skim my interlinear.

Interesting point to investigate, I also have not tried to sort that out in the Greek, but in English, the point is not that solid.

 

For example, if it were Jan 1st, and you were describing the previous 2 weeks, it might be possible that you wife returned items to the Mall, and returned home on Dec 31. Your kids might have been there two days prior, and then returned. Perhaps you neighbor did some window shopping in the 20th, and returned home.

 

You might say that last year, your wife, your kids, and your neighber were all at the mall, but they came out. It is not necessary to see that as a singular event, right?

 

No, I don't think so. The Greek tense conveys the sense that what is being described is a present, continuous and ongoing event - not something that happened just once as in a singular rapture event.  Therefore if true this casts doubt as to whether the rapture occurs after the opening of the 6th seal.  My ability to determine Greek tenses, moods, voices etc. is poor.  Here are two links that shed some light on the interpretation of "ercomenoi."  

http://m.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/robertsons-word-pictures/revelation/revelation-7-14.html

 

http://www.lectionarystudies.com/studyn/easter3cen.html

 

In my opinion  your confusing 2 different subjects. Please let me explain. The church is raptured, right around the time the 144,000 are sealed. After the 6th seal. The Israelites and the 144,000 will still be the enemies of the anti-Christ and will still be hunted and tortured and killed for the faith. Just like anyone who believes there report, and turns to Jesus as Lord and savior, will be hunted as well. These are who it's talking about.

 

If you are referring to the great multitude described in Rev 7:9 -then yes we disagree as to their identity.  The prewrath view identifies this multitude as those in the church who were raptured so I don't understand why you would identify them as Israel, especially since they come from "every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages."

 

My point is simply that saints will still be martyred and killed through out the entire 70th week, regardless of when the rapture takes place. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

[Steve_S]

 

My point is simply that saints will still be martyred and killed through out the entire 70th week, regardless of when the rapture takes place. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

 

 

 

From a purely pre-wrath point of view you don't assume that the persecution ends with the wrath being poured out and the sealing of the 144,000?

[firestormx]

 

 

My point is simply that saints will still be martyred and killed through out the entire 70th week, regardless of when the rapture takes place. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 

 

 

 

From a purely pre-wrath point of view you don't assume that the persecution ends with the wrath being poured out and the sealing of the 144,000?

 

No, Because, The people who come to faith in Christ after the church is raptured will still be persecuted as will the Israelites. After all,  right before the return of Christ to set foot on mount of Olives, Jerusalem is surrounded and about to be destroyed. The 2 witnesses will be also.

Edited July 5, 2013 by firestormx

[Steve_S]

So you think the 144,000 will be active in evangelism? 

[firestormx]

So you think the 144,000 will be active in evangelism? 

Yes I do. To add further to the discussion I also believe ( personally,don't know if I could use scripture to prove it 100% )  that it is the rapture that causes the Israelites to quote the word, " mourn for him as the would there own son ". I believe it is the rapture that allows God to open there eye's and heart's that Jesus is the messiah. Which is why they are persecuted. They have turned to Jesus as Lord and rejected the anti-Christ.