Location of the dead?

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Hello Brothers and Sisters :il:

Or should that be Sisters and Brothers :bg:

Anyway I have recieved an interesting question from a teen that I give to you for your input. I have read conflicting scriptural answers to this Question. So I leave it to you all to ponder.

Question:

From Hikaru, Indonesia

My teacher said that dead people waited for the final judgement ( the end of the world), so they know they go to heaven or ####. So now, heaven and #### is still empty. Is it true?

So if you could help me out here friends  :il: Shine some light.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Guest shadow2b]

Hello Brothers and Sisters :il:

Or should that be Sisters and Brothers :bg:

Anyway I have recieved an interesting question from a teen that I give to you for your input. I have read conflicting scriptural answers to this Question. So I leave it to you all to ponder.

Question:

From Hikaru, Indonesia

My teacher said that dead people waited for the final judgement ( the end of the world), so they know they go to heaven or ####. So now, heaven and #### is still empty. Is it true?

So if you could help me out here friends

[godrulz]

True Shadow. Before the resurrection of Christ, Hades had 2 compartments (righteous and unrighteous). Now, for a believer, to be absent from the Body is to be present with the Lord in heaven (Paul). The lost are not in the lake of fire yet, but are conscious and separated from God in a temporary 'prison' (Hades).

Death and Hades will ultimately be thrown into the Lake of Fire (final destiny of demons and unregenerate man - Revelation).

It is appointed for man once to die, then the judgement (Hebrews). At death, one's destiny is fixed. There is no purgatory (intermediate place) or second chance (reincarnation, cult teachings).

We must also consider the future bodily resurrection (s) of mankind and the various judgements, including the Great White Throne (unbelievers and people from the millennium) and Bema Seat (believer's works). This Indonesia teacher may believe in one general resurrection of the good and the bad, but it seems there are several resurrections and judgements in the prophetic timeline.

[OneAccord]

That teen asked a very good question.

I think that in order to understand this, you also need a good understanding of TIME and ETERNITY.  We are in bondage to linear time as we sojourn on this earth.  In eternity there is no time, or there is all time at once, however you percieve it.  Therefore if we are translated out of time and into eternity at death, then we are immediately prresent with the Lord and recieve our judgement.  We won't be 'waiting around' in eternity for everyone to get there, we'll all get there at the same time, because there is no time....  It's a hard concept to grasp.  Lambert Dolphin has written quite a bit on this topic, if anyone is interested I can post a link (don't have time right now).

On the flip side.........The Book of Enoch has quite a bit to say about the souls-in-waiting, very graphic pictures of the valleys they are kept in.  I could look for these scriptures also.

[godrulz]

One Accord:

What is the Book of Enoch? It is not in the Catholic Apocrypha. There is a Book of Enos in the Book of Mormon. Is it like the Book of Jasher? (writing that is ?Jewish but not canon). It is not in the canon of Scripture and has no teaching authority. It is extrabiblical and much would likely be contrabiblical.

I would be interested in Lambert's link. I believe, after extensive research, the 'eternal now' concept of God is from pagan Greek/Hindu philosophy and that time is an endless duration of succession/sequence and an aspect of God's personal being (but in no way a limitation on God). In eternity, the EARTHLY measure of time may cease, but duration/sequence/succession (i.e. time) cannot cease without God and personality ceasing. 'Timeless or all time at once' is an illogical absurdity and pagan speculation, not the simple evidence of Scripture about who God is and how He/we experience reality on earth and in heaven. Your insights on eternity are speculative at best, and unscriptural at worst (though this is not a salvific, i.e. salvation issue...so let's not shed blood over it, as it were). Scripture unfolds a sequence of history and judgements that would not make sense if we do not view them with past, present, and future connotations. We had a long discussion of omniscience, time, and eternity, under GENERAL DISCUSSIONS/IMAGE OF GOD. This thread here is not the place to reopen the debate. Thank you for enlightening me more about the Book of Enoch's teachings. Anything in my last post that you agree/disagree with (does it need modifying/clarifying)?

God bless. William

(I am Pentecostal/evangelical/Protestant...could I ask your background to help me understand your perspective/influences?)

[OneAccord]

Hi Godrulz:

The link to Lambert Dolphin's treatise on TIME is:

http://www.ldolphin.org/kingdom/append.html

Scroll down to Appednix F.

[godrulz]

Thank you for your excellent reply, my fellow truth seeker. I concur that much of the Word-Faith movement is questionable. We need biblical faith in the person and works of God, not a presumption in formulas.

I would encourage you to align with a Bible-believing local church in your area as soon as you are ready. You need to be part of the Body (universal/local) for teaching, fellowship, and mission. But the church also needs you and your gifts!

I am reading a definitive treatise by J.R. Lucas called "A treatise on time and space." This is over my head and too theoretical, but has a few simple conclusions like: the past is unalterable, the present is actual, and the future is open. There are easier books by Intervarsity Press, for example, that share 4 views of time/eternity with counter responses by each of the authorities holding the views. This is an excellent way to clarify one's own beliefs and the issues.

Your link looks well researched, but one valid view among several. I scanned it and will check it out when I have time. One thing I may disagree with is that time is created (the earthly MEASURE of it did have a beginning= sun/moon). I think there is confusion between time, space, and matter (Einstein's relativity). Time is not a "thing" (object) nor a place/space, but a reality of personal existence/experience. Will (actions), intellect (thoughts), and  emotions (feelings) must involve sequence, succession, and duration for God and us in earthly 'time' and eternity (endless duration). This straightforward view is reasonable and defensible from Scripture. Any ideas of time travel, eternity without time, all time at once ('eternal now') seem to me to be speculative or science fiction. The eternal God's relationship to man and human history (time) has many practical implications for our faith (prayer, evangelism, prophecy, responsibility, relationship, creation, etc.) and is a worthy study.

[OneAccord]

I imagine the Lord will lead me to a church group that will be a mutual blessing in His good time.  In the meantime He has me plenty busy with Bible study, prayer, personal fellowship with Christians, and ministry to everyone He sends across my path, not to mention my ministry to my husband and children.  We visit around on Sundays and see what all the other Christians are up to which is very enlightening and enjoyable, so many ways to worship the Lord!

Your thoughts on sequential time are intriguing, because it's hard to fathom the concept of eternity without the orderliness of sequential time, adn it does make this whole earthly journey seem a bit pointless if outside of the confines of time, everything has already happened or keeps on happening.  Sort of cheapens what Christ did on the cross if the outcome is already predetermined.

[Guest shadow2b]

Thank you for your excellent reply, my fellow truth seeker. I concur that much of the Word-Faith movement is questionable. We need biblical faith in the person and works of God, not a presumption in formulas.

I would encourage you to align with a Bible-believing local church in your area as soon as you are ready. You need to be part of the Body (universal/local) for teaching, fellowship, and mission. But the church also needs you and your gifts!

I am reading a definitive treatise by J.R. Lucas called "A treatise on time and space." This is over my head and too theoretical, but has a few simple conclusions like: the past is unalterable, the present is actual, and the future is open. There are easier books by Intervarsity Press, for example, that share 4 views of time/eternity with counter responses by each of the authorities holding the views. This is an excellent way to clarify one's own beliefs and the issues.

Your link looks well researched, but one valid view among several. I scanned it and will check it out when I have time. One thing I may disagree with is that time is created (the earthly MEASURE of it did have a beginning= sun/moon). I think there is confusion between time, space, and matter (Einstein's relativity). Time is not a "thing" (object) nor a place/space, but a reality of personal existence/experience. Will (actions), intellect (thoughts), and

[godrulz]

Well, the church is certainly imperfect because the believers are imperfect. Our vertical relationship with God is paramount certainly. It seems though the horizontal connection is important too. There is no such thing as a 'Lone Ranger' Christian someone once said. No man is an island (John Donne). There is a dynamic in corporate worship in addition to prayer-closet worship. A small group is also a source of life.

I attend a church that balances worship, instruction, fellowship, evangelism, and service without the latest fads. It has life, truth, and community impact.

There are many dead and dying churches. Surely it is the biblical pattern and ideal to be a part of a local church. Tithing is worship to God, not giving to man.