No Scripture Identifies the Time for the Rapture

[Retrobyter]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marv when are you going to understand the scripture about Noah and being taken away, that scripture isn't about a rapture of the bride, the ones taken away are the ones that were taken away by the flood. That's the way it will be with the coming of the Son of Man, the ones taken are the evil ones, taken to where the eagles are gathered to be the main coarse for dinner.

If the evil are taken away, what becomes of the ones that are left in your scenario? 

 

they enter the 1000 year reign

 

So you believe they are the sheep that get separated from the goats?  Then who are the saints that will rule and reign over them with Christ?  Or, if you believe these ARE the saints, then who are the ones that they will rule over, the ones who will re-populate the earth?  Also, who were the least of Christ' brothers that the sheep ministered to?

 

It does not appear that you believe in a rapture.  And what about the martyr's that are killed for refusing the mark of the beast, where do they come into play in your scenario?

 

your right about that, there won't be any pre-trib rapture. That is totally a man made doctrine

 

 

I agree with you about the pre-trib timing, but it does not appear that you believe in any rapture whatsoever, since your interpretation is that the evil ones are taken away instead.  But what is your understanding of the ones who are left? 

 

The rapture and the second coming are the same event. The Lord is coming back to set up His Kingdom on this Earth, the ones left will join the Lord in his Kingdom

 

 

So how do you understand our gathering in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air? 

 

It happens just like the Bible says, we meet the Lord in the air. We then make our way to Bozrah and then to the Mt of Olives

 

 

But you said the evil ones were taken, ie, two will be in the field, one is taken, the other is left...Two women grinding at the mill, one is taken, the other is left????  Then Christ repeatedly says no one knows the day and the hour and to be ready, but you say these are the evil ones??

 

The ones taken are the evil ones, they are gathered and burned. The righteous go with the Lord. 

I am ready, I got ready 50 years ago, and I still won't know the day or hour until that day is upon us.

 

 

I think you're really getting ahead of yourself in this prophecy.  There's nothing in here to indicate that the evil ones are either taken or burned.  You create a problem when you start adding the wheat and tares into this mix.  The wheat and tares would fit much better with the sheep and goats at the end of Matt. 25, which is the end of the age.  That is also the second coming, and when He will judge the nations, but it is vitally important to know that judgment first begins with the house of the Lord (1 Pet. 4:17).  In Matt. 24 we see Christ gathering His elect, telling His followers that they must be ready, followed by several parables that have nothing whatsoever to do with the physical second coming to the earth, but everything to do with the rapture.  This is all about the judgment of His servants first; and then He will judge the survivors of the nations afterward, which will determine who will enter the millennial kingdom.  (See my comments in post #84)

 

The pre-tribbers are the ones getting ahead of themselves. The rapture and second coming are the same event, not 2 events separated by 7 years.

 

 

I agree, but not to worry, their theory will be the first one to fall.  The rapture and second coming are definitely not the same event, but what makes you so sure they are???

 

 

Shalom, guys. Thought I'd throw my 2 cents worth into the mix. Please understand that the parables of Matthew 13 are NOT about this time period - the period in which we are currently living. They are about the future, first one thousand years of the Messiah's reign while haSatan (the Enemy) is in chains (also yet in the future). The parables of the tares and the wheat, and of the dragnet are about THAT time period and the culmination of that ONE THOUSAND YEAR LONG PERIOD is when the wheat and the tares - or the good fish from the bad - are separated.

 

The parable of the sheep and the goats - which is an analogy to the NATIONS (not individuals) - occurs when the King begins sitting on His throne. This, of course, occurs at the BEGINNING of His reign, at the BEGINNING of the one thousand years.

 

Many Christians have been taught that one should gloss over this one-thousand-year period to the point that they FORGET (or never knew) that when the Messiah returns, the End is not right away! So, by way of diagram, we find in Scripture that it will be ...

 

Rapture/2nd Coming -RESCUE - sheep/goats - O N E  T H O U S A N D  Y E A R S - wheat/tares & bad-fish/good-fish (GWTJ) - FIRE- New Earth/Sky/Jerusalem - ETERNITY.

 

P.S., I should have mentioned that we are told in each of these parables when they occur: The sheep/goats happens "when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and ... then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." The wheat/tares occurs when his messengers-angels "gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM all things that offend," which is also said to occur "in the end of this world (Greek: aioonos or age)." The drag-net parable is also said to occur "at the end of the world (Greek: aioonos or age)." And, I think the controlling passage of Scripture that defines/links these periods and also harmonizes with Revelation 19-21 is 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. There, Paul says that AFTER the Son of man has reigned until every enemy is under his feet, "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him," and he "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" at "the end."

 

Now, RollinTHUNDER, the "rapture" and the "second coming" are not PRECISELY the same event, but neither are they PRECISELY different events! The timing of the second coming is found in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24/25, Mark 13, Luke 21), but the "rapture" is said to be associated with the passage in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. One should notice, however, that NOWHERE in 1 Thess. 4:13-17 does Paul tell us WHERE we will be going after we "meet the Lord in the air!" It only says, "and so shall we ever be with the Lord." Therefore, we can only conclude that, wherever the Lord goes, we will go.

 

The typical assumption for the pretribbers (and pre-wrath and even some posttribbers) is that He will go back to "Heaven." However, that is NOT said in this passage. That's only an assumption. Now, some will, at this point, throw in John 14:1-3, where Yeshua` concluded, "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." But here again, there's an assumption that where the Lord will be, where His disciples will be, is in the place where He went to "prepare a place" for His disciples! Notice that NOWHERE in John 14:1-3 does it say that He will take His disciples back where He was "preparing" them a place! It SEEMS implied, but THAT is the assumption! To the contrary, Revelation (also written by the same John) says that the New Jerusalem (which was "prepared" - same word - as a bride for her husband) comes DOWN FROM God OUT OF heaven and is the tabernacle (Greek: skeenee meaning a Bedouin tent) of God "WITH MEN, and they shall be his people, and God Himself shall be WITH THEM, and be their God."

 

Therefore, instead of thinking of us "going to heaven," we should be thinking of the "New Jerusalem coming HERE!" Of course, based on the diagram above, this doesn't occur until AFTER the first 1000 years of the Messiah's reign. SO, the next question is "where will Yeshua` (Jesus) go AFTER He has come again and received His disciples unto Himself?" Again, from John 14:1-3, we can only conclude that wherever Yeshua` is, there His disciples will be, too.

 

The next thing to ask is, I believe, the key: "For what PURPOSE(S) is our Lord returning?" Well, there are two, according to the Scriptures: (1) He comes to rescue His people, and (2) He comes to reign. I believe that, therefore, our resurrection/transformation/rapture/ascension also has the same two purposes. We are transported (1) to help Him rescue His people, and (2) to help Him reign. The Scriptures imply that He will start without us because it says that He will be MAJORLY TICKED OFF that no one is helping Him with His indignation against Botsrah (Bozrah) in Edowm (Edom) for the way they treated His people, Isra'el (Isaiah 63:1-6). So, which comes first? I believe that the rescue of His people must occur before He can begin His reign in Isra'el; so, it seems to me that the RESCUE has to occur before He begins His reign. He has to have His people and His Land before He can reign as their King.

[rollinTHUNDER]

This Rapture topic is based on Two major sets of Scriptures.

 

The first being:

 

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  to add further; v 37, 38 -  as in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered into the Ark.

 

The Second being:

 

John 1:1, 2, 14 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,  He was in the beginning with God...  And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.  Being the Word is Jesus.

 

Here we see that all the Spoken Word and all the Written Word (Bible) is from Jesus the Son.  Everything contained in the Scriptures is of Jesus the Son.  He knows everything which is in the Word (Bible), because He is the Word.

 

Look at the words before Noah entered the Ark.  People eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.  They were having a good ole happy time.  Just as people are acting today.  A time of merriment.

 

In Contrast; those during the  70th Week are going through terrible times.  Earthquakes, severe famines, all the grasses burning up, hiding in the rocks, all living creatures in the sea dying, the sun searing people.  Calamity, people being distraught.  People living in fear, was is going to come up next. 

 

This is a totally different environment than what was going on before the flood.  Having a big party.

 

Now back to the main point;  Scripture does not give a hint of when the Rapture will occur, for only God the Father knows, Not God the Son (Word).  If you say it is in Scripture, you make God a liar, for He is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture.  How many god the fathers do we have out here knowing the timing of the Rapture.

 

This is a difficult subject, everyone has their opinion, they try to base it on Scripture, which is of Jesus.  That is where most fail.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean?

Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48

Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep), who will be separated from the goats at the second coming.

You're right that scripture does not indicate when this profound mystery will happen. Only God the Father knows the day and hour, but please note that it happens after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29), which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

[Montana Marv]

 

This Rapture topic is based on Two major sets of Scriptures.

 

The first being:

 

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  to add further; v 37, 38 -  as in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered into the Ark.

 

The Second being:

 

John 1:1, 2, 14 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,  He was in the beginning with God...  And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.  Being the Word is Jesus.

 

Here we see that all the Spoken Word and all the Written Word (Bible) is from Jesus the Son.  Everything contained in the Scriptures is of Jesus the Son.  He knows everything which is in the Word (Bible), because He is the Word.

 

Look at the words before Noah entered the Ark.  People eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.  They were having a good ole happy time.  Just as people are acting today.  A time of merriment.

 

In Contrast; those during the  70th Week are going through terrible times.  Earthquakes, severe famines, all the grasses burning up, hiding in the rocks, all living creatures in the sea dying, the sun searing people.  Calamity, people being distraught.  People living in fear, was is going to come up next. 

 

This is a totally different environment than what was going on before the flood.  Having a big party.

 

Now back to the main point;  Scripture does not give a hint of when the Rapture will occur, for only God the Father knows, Not God the Son (Word).  If you say it is in Scripture, you make God a liar, for He is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture.  How many god the fathers do we have out here knowing the timing of the Rapture.

 

This is a difficult subject, everyone has their opinion, they try to base it on Scripture, which is of Jesus.  That is where most fail.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean?

Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48

Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep), who will be separated from the goats at the second coming.

You're right that scripture does not indicate when this profound mystery will happen. Only God the Father knows the day and hour, but please note that it happens after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29), which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

 

 

rollin thunder

 

You just quoted Scripture to support a view.  It is not there.  Those Scriptures refer to the Second Coming.  The "elect" are the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel (Zech 13:8-9)

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[JustAServant]

Marv,  if you do a word search through the New Testament, the elect are the Christians (i.e.:

 

1Pe 1:2

 

 

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

True?  I don't know that anyone has really figured out who the 144,000 are.  Some say they are the redeemed and saved Jews - I personally just don't know but I'm feel the elect are those who become saved believers during the tribulation.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom (A Sabbath of peace to you), rollinTHUNDER.

 

 

This Rapture topic is based on Two major sets of Scriptures.
 
The first being:
 
Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  to add further; v 37, 38 -  as in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered into the Ark.
 
The Second being:
 
John 1:1, 2, 14 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,  He was in the beginning with God...  And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.  Being the Word is Jesus.
 
Here we see that all the Spoken Word and all the Written Word (Bible) is from Jesus the Son.  Everything contained in the Scriptures is of Jesus the Son.  He knows everything which is in the Word (Bible), because He is the Word.
 
Look at the words before Noah entered the Ark.  People eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.  They were having a good ole happy time.  Just as people are acting today.  A time of merriment.
 
In Contrast; those during the  70th Week are going through terrible times.  Earthquakes, severe famines, all the grasses burning up, hiding in the rocks, all living creatures in the sea dying, the sun searing people.  Calamity, people being distraught.  People living in fear, was is going to come up next. 
 
This is a totally different environment than what was going on before the flood.  Having a big party.
 
Now back to the main point;  Scripture does not give a hint of when the Rapture will occur, for only God the Father knows, Not God the Son (Word).  If you say it is in Scripture, you make God a liar, for He is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture.  How many god the fathers do we have out here knowing the timing of the Rapture.
 
This is a difficult subject, everyone has their opinion, they try to base it on Scripture, which is of Jesus.  That is where most fail.
 
In Christ
Montana Marv

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean?

Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?
42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep), who will be separated from the goats at the second coming.

You're right that scripture does not indicate when this profound mystery will happen. Only God the Father knows the day and hour, but please note that it happens after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29), which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

 

 

I think you're missing Yeshua`s point in Matthew 24. When you said, "It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean? Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready," I think you've taken a wrong turn.

 

Yeshua` was simply saying that "LIFE WAS GOING ON AS NORMAL when the Flood struck!" There was no indication that a disaster of global proportions was about the occur! IT TOOK THEM BY SURPRISE! He didn't say that they were eating and drinking in excess; He just said that they were eating and drinking AS NORMAL! He wasn't saying that there was anything wrong in marrying and giving their children in marriage; He was saying that there was NO INKLING IN THEIR MINDS that something bad was about to happen! That's all He meant. Only one man knew what was about to happen, and he and his family are all who survived, implying that IF he warned anyone (as a "preacher of righteousness" which simply means a "herald of justice", 2 Peter 2:5), they blew it off as the ravings of a madman.

 

 

Matthew 24:37-39

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

KJV

 

You also need ... NEED ... to understand that this "thlipsis" (Greek for "pressure" translated as "tribulation") is already begun! It began in the first century when Yeshua` pronounced the Jews "desolate" in Matthew 23:38 and will continue until the signs in the sun, moon, and stars are visible with the Messiah's arrival. There is no "seven years of tribulation" or "three and a half years of great tribulation," as some have claimed. We've been living in the "tribulation" as described in the Olivet Discourse for almost 2,000 years! Yeshua`s warning of the impending "thlipsis" began to be fulfilled in the late 60s when Rome came against Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). The warnings to His disciples were for them to flee the city by staying to the rooftops, jumping from roof to roof, until they could escape over the walls. The warnings to His disciples were to escape from the city and not go back for ANYTHING! The warnings to His disciples were to flee to the mountains and not even THINK of returning! All of that ONLY makes sense when the walls for a city made sense!

 

So, Yeshua`s warning ...

 

 

Matthew 24:9-12, 15-21, 23-28

9 At that time you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and put to death, and all peoples will hate you because of me. 10 At that time many will be trapped into betraying and hating each other, 11 many false prophets will appear and fool many people; 12 and many people’s love will grow cold because of increased distance from Torah.

...

15 “So when you see the abomination that causes desolation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place”f (let the reader understand the allusion), 16 “that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills. 17 If someone is on the roof, he must not go down to gather his belongings from his house; 18 if someone is in the field, he must not turn back to get his coat. 19 What a terrible time it will be for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that you will not have to escape in winter or on Shabbat. 21 For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again!

...

23 “At that time, if someone says to you, ‘Look! Here’s the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ don’t believe him. 24 For there will appear false Messiahs and false prophets performing great miracles — amazing things! — so as to fool even the chosen, if possible. 25 There! I have told you in advance! 26 So if people say to you, ‘Listen! He’s out in the desert!’ don’t go; or, ‘Look! He’s hidden away in a secret room!’ don’t believe it. 27 For when the Son of Man does come, it will be like lightning that flashes out of the east and fills the sky to the western horizon. 28 Wherever there’s a dead body, that’s where you find the vultures."

CJB

 

... began when they were escaping from the domination of Rome in the years just prior to the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D! They also CONTINUED after that in 135 A.D. Doesn't His warning make perfect sense in light of the Bar Kokhba Revolt when Simon bar Kokhva claimed to be the Messiah? And, the years of "thlipsis" continued through the years and years of persecutions, martyrdom, Crusades, Inquisitions, endless deportations from various European countries, the Russian Pogroms, the Holocaust, and the years of Muslim domination through the Ottoman Empire!

 

And, as I said, it's not over, yet! This warning was not just to fact that His disciples were believers that Yeshua` was/is the Messiah; it was also to the fact that His followers were JEWS and children of Isra'el! Down through the years, there have been MANY who claimed to be the Messiah or at least A Messiah. Just look at how many have been identified by Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_messiah_claimants! Furthermore, it TAKES TIME for all these various "messiahs" to acquire a following! Seven short years won't do!

 

One of the greatest lies in modern Eschatology is that the "tribulation" = Dani'el's "seventieth Seven!" They are NOT the same thing! When one can get over that simple assumption, things begin to make sense!

 

When Yeshua` said, ...

 

 

Matthew 24:21-22

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

KJV

 

... He simply meant that the days would be CURTAILED! They would be ARRESTED and not be allowed to continue indefinitely. There would be periods of reprieve so that rebuilding of their population would be possible! 

 

Not everything in the Scriptures is black and white. There are often shades of gray and other colors, as well! Not everything in the Scriptures is about "saved/unsaved" or "justified/unjustified." Some Christians have so compartmentalized these terms, that there's even a difference in their minds between "being a sinner" and "being a criminal!" And, if there are various crimes and varying degrees of crime, deserving varying degrees of punishment, then there should also be various sins and varying degrees of sin, deserving varying degrees of torment!

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JustAServant.

 

 

Marv,  if you do a word search through the New Testament, the elect are the Christians (i.e.:

 

1Pe 1:2

 

 

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

True?  I don't know that anyone has really figured out who the 144,000 are.  Some say they are the redeemed and saved Jews - I personally just don't know but I'm feel the elect are those who become saved believers during the tribulation.

 

 

One needs to conduct a PROPER word search, though. Don't just look for the word "elect" in Scripture. Look at the GREEK word that is translated as "elect," which is "eklektos," which means "one who is selected, favorite, or chosen":

 

 

    

NT:1588 eklektos (ek-lek-tos'); from NT:1586; select; by implication, favorite:

KJV - chosen, elect.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

THEN, do an Englishman's Concordance search:

 

The word is found 23 times in the NT ...

 

Matt 20:16

Matt 22:14

Matt 24:22

Matt 24:24

Matt 24:31

Mark 13:20

Mark 13:22

Mark 13:27

Luke 18:7

Luke 23:35

Rom 8:33

Rom 16:13

Col 3:12

1 Tim 5:21

2 Tim 2:10

Titus 1:1

1 Peter 1:1

1 Peter 2:4

1 Peter 2:6

1 Peter 2:9

2 John 1

2 John 13

Rev 17:14

 

Then, look at these verses for a QUOTATION from the OT:

 

1 Peter 2:6-9

6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

KJV

 

Then, find those Scriptures in the OT and look up the HEBREW word that was so translated into the Greek:

 

 

Isaiah 28:16

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God , Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation, a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

KJV

 

 

Deuteronomy 14:1-2

1 Ye are the children of the Lord  your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.

2 for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

KJV

 

OT:976 bochan (bo'-khan); from OT:974; trial:

KJV - tried.

    

OT:974 bachan (baw-khan'); a primitive root; to test (especially metals); generally and figuratively, to investigate:

KJV - examine, prove, tempt, try (trial).

 

 

OT:977 baachar (baw-khar'); a primitive root; properly, to try, i.e. (by implication) select:

KJV - acceptable, appoint, choose (choice), excellent, join, be rather, require.

 

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

 

(Often, you will find a whole FAMILY of words that are related. They are all based on the same primary word ("primitive root"), but have different vowel pointing with slightly different meanings based on the primary meaning.)

 

THEN, you can look up where THESE words are found, again, using an Englishman's Concordance search:

 

974:

Gen 42:15

 

Gen 42:16

1 Chron 29:17

Job 7:18

Job 12:11

Job 23:10

Job 34:3

Job 34:36

Ps 7:9

Ps 11:4

Ps 11:5

Ps 17:3

Ps 26:2

Ps 66:10

Ps 81:7

Ps 95:9

Ps 139:23

Prov 17:3

Jer 6:27

Jer 9:7

Jer 11:20

Jer 12:3

Jer 17:10

Jer 20:12

Ezek 21:13

Zech 13:9

Zech 13:9

Mal 3:10

Mal 3:15

 

976:

Isa 28:16

 

977:

Gen 6:2

Gen 13:11

Ex 17:9

Ex 18:25

Num 16:5

Num 16:7

Num 17:5

Deut 4:37

Deut 7:6

Deut 7:7

Deut 10:15

Deut 12:5

Deut 12:11

Deut 12:14

Deut 12:18

Deut 12:21

Deut 12:26

Deut 14:2

Deut 14:23

Deut 14:24

Deut 14:25

Deut 15:20

Deut 16:2

Deut 16:6

Deut 16:7

Deut 16:11

Deut 16:15

Deut 16:16

Deut 17:8

Deut 17:10

Deut 17:15

Deut 18:5

Deut 18:6

Deut 21:5

Deut 23:16

Deut 26:2

Deut 30:19

Deut 31:11

Josh 8:3

Josh 9:27

Josh 24:15

Josh 24:22

Judg 5:8

Judg 10:14

1 Sam 2:28

1 Sam 8:18

1 Sam 10:24

1 Sam 12:13

1 Sam 13:2

1 Sam 16:8

1 Sam 16:9

1 Sam 16:10

1 Sam 17:40

1 Sam 20:30

2 Sam 6:21

2 Sam 10:9

2 Sam 15:15

2 Sam 16:18

2 Sam 17:1

2 Sam 19:38

2 Sam 24:12

1 Kings 3:8

1 Kings 8:16

1 Kings 8:16

1 Kings 8:44

1 Kings 8:48

1 Kings 11:13

1 Kings 11:32

1 Kings 11:34

1 Kings 11:36

1 Kings 14:21

1 Kings 18:23

1 Kings 18:25

2 Kings 21:7

2 Kings 23:27

1 Chron 15:2

1 Chron 19:10

1 Chron 21:10

1 Chron 28:4

1 Chron 28:4

1 Chron 28:5

1 Chron 28:6

1 Chron 28:10

1 Chron 29:1

2 Chron 6:5

2 Chron 6:5

2 Chron 6:6

2 Chron 6:6

2 Chron 6:34

2 Chron 6:38

2 Chron 7:12

2 Chron 7:16

2 Chron 12:13

Neh 1:9

Neh 9:7

Job 7:15

Job 9:14

Job 15:5

Job 29:25

Job 34:4

Job 34:33

Job 36:21

Ps 25:12

Ps 33:12

Ps 47:4

Ps 65:4

Ps 78:67

Ps 78:68

Ps 78:70

Ps 84:10

Ps 105:26

Ps 119:30

Ps 119:173

Ps 132:13

Ps 135:4

Prov 1:29

Prov 3:31

Prov 8:10

Prov 8:19

Prov 10:20

Prov 16:16

Prov 21:3

Prov 22:1

Song 5:15

Isa 1:29

Isa 7:15

Isa 7:16

Isa 14:1

Isa 40:20

Isa 41:8

Isa 41:9

Isa 41:24

Isa 43:10

Isa 44:1

Isa 44:2

Isa 48:10

Isa 49:7

Isa 56:4

Isa 58:5

Isa 58:6

Isa 65:12

Isa 66:3

Isa 66:4

Isa 66:4

Jer 8:3

Jer 33:24

Ezek 20:5

Hag 2:23

Zech 1:17

Zech 2:12

Zech 3:2

 

And, if you have found ALL the Hebrew words that were translated into that particular Greek word, you have done a PROPER word search!

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

This Rapture topic is based on Two major sets of Scriptures.

 

The first being:

 

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  to add further; v 37, 38 -  as in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered into the Ark.

 

The Second being:

 

John 1:1, 2, 14 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,  He was in the beginning with God...  And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.  Being the Word is Jesus.

 

Here we see that all the Spoken Word and all the Written Word (Bible) is from Jesus the Son.  Everything contained in the Scriptures is of Jesus the Son.  He knows everything which is in the Word (Bible), because He is the Word.

 

Look at the words before Noah entered the Ark.  People eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.  They were having a good ole happy time.  Just as people are acting today.  A time of merriment.

 

In Contrast; those during the  70th Week are going through terrible times.  Earthquakes, severe famines, all the grasses burning up, hiding in the rocks, all living creatures in the sea dying, the sun searing people.  Calamity, people being distraught.  People living in fear, was is going to come up next. 

 

This is a totally different environment than what was going on before the flood.  Having a big party.

 

Now back to the main point;  Scripture does not give a hint of when the Rapture will occur, for only God the Father knows, Not God the Son (Word).  If you say it is in Scripture, you make God a liar, for He is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture.  How many god the fathers do we have out here knowing the timing of the Rapture.

 

This is a difficult subject, everyone has their opinion, they try to base it on Scripture, which is of Jesus.  That is where most fail.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean?

Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48

Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep), who will be separated from the goats at the second coming.

You're right that scripture does not indicate when this profound mystery will happen. Only God the Father knows the day and hour, but please note that it happens after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29), which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

 

 

rollin thunder

 

You just quoted Scripture to support a view.  It is not there.  Those Scriptures refer to the Second Coming.  The "elect" are the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel (Zech 13:8-9)

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

So you believe the days of Noah is supportive of the second coming? It didn't have anything to do with His first advent, so why should it represent His second coming? I see no connection there whatsoever. I do see that Noah prepared himself and that he was rescued from the wrath of God's flood. And Christ will also be rescuing His servants before God's wrath visits this world a second time. So this is about the rescue, not His second coming, for even pre-tribbers know that the rapture must come before the second coming to earth.

In the Old Testament Israel was God's elect, but in the New Testament there is no distinction between the Jews and Gentiles. The word elect means chosen, as in many are called but few are chosen. And now we see Christ warning His followers that they must be ready. You are just holding on for dear life to your pre-trib rapture, but there will be no such thing. 

 

Matt. 24:31 correlates with 1 Thes. 4:16-17.  Lets take a look.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

⁽¹⁷⁾ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Now that is a powerful connection!!!!

 

 

 

 

[Montana Marv]

 

 

 

This Rapture topic is based on Two major sets of Scriptures.

 

The first being:

 

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  to add further; v 37, 38 -  as in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered into the Ark.

 

The Second being:

 

John 1:1, 2, 14 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,  He was in the beginning with God...  And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.  Being the Word is Jesus.

 

Here we see that all the Spoken Word and all the Written Word (Bible) is from Jesus the Son.  Everything contained in the Scriptures is of Jesus the Son.  He knows everything which is in the Word (Bible), because He is the Word.

 

Look at the words before Noah entered the Ark.  People eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.  They were having a good ole happy time.  Just as people are acting today.  A time of merriment.

 

In Contrast; those during the  70th Week are going through terrible times.  Earthquakes, severe famines, all the grasses burning up, hiding in the rocks, all living creatures in the sea dying, the sun searing people.  Calamity, people being distraught.  People living in fear, was is going to come up next. 

 

This is a totally different environment than what was going on before the flood.  Having a big party.

 

Now back to the main point;  Scripture does not give a hint of when the Rapture will occur, for only God the Father knows, Not God the Son (Word).  If you say it is in Scripture, you make God a liar, for He is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture.  How many god the fathers do we have out here knowing the timing of the Rapture.

 

This is a difficult subject, everyone has their opinion, they try to base it on Scripture, which is of Jesus.  That is where most fail.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean?

Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48

Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep), who will be separated from the goats at the second coming.

You're right that scripture does not indicate when this profound mystery will happen. Only God the Father knows the day and hour, but please note that it happens after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29), which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

 

 

rollin thunder

 

You just quoted Scripture to support a view.  It is not there.  Those Scriptures refer to the Second Coming.  The "elect" are the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel (Zech 13:8-9)

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

So you believe the days of Noah is supportive of the second coming? It didn't have anything to do with His first advent, so why should it represent His second coming? I see no connection there whatsoever. I do see that Noah prepared himself and that he was rescued from the wrath of God's flood. And Christ will also be rescuing His servants before God's wrath visits this world a second time. So this is about the rescue, not His second coming, for even pre-tribbers know that the rapture must come before the second coming to earth.

In the Old Testament Israel was God's elect, but in the New Testament there is no distinction between the Jews and Gentiles. The word elect means chosen, as in many are called but few are chosen. And now we see Christ warning His followers that they must be ready. You are just holding on for dear life to your pre-trib rapture, but there will be no such thing. 

 

Matt. 24:31 correlates with 1 Thes. 4:16-17.  Lets take a look.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

⁽¹⁷⁾ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Now that is a powerful connection!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

rollin thunder

 

I see no correlation there either.  I am tying the environment for the Rapture as the time before Noah for this present day; eating, drinking, marrying and giving to marriage.  This same environment is going on right now.  So we should be ready.

 

I do not correlate Matt 24:31-32 to 1 Thes 4:16-17.  With respect to Matt 24:31-32; and he (v30 is the Son of Man, not God) will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect; as compared to 1 Thes where the Lord himself (Bridegroom) gathers his bride; the angels are not gathering the Bride, it is not there in Scripture.

 

In Matt the angels are gathering the elect from the four winds (here on earth) and from one end of heaven to the other (those elect already there).  Which of the elect are already in heaven and when did they get there.  We know the 144,000 and the Jewish remnant are still on earth at this time, plus many from other nations; What do they do, they mourn when they see the Son of Man in the sky.  What will the Bride do when they see the Bridegroom coming?  We will rejoice and not mourn.  For 1 Thes 4:18 says, encourage each other with these words, exhort each other, uplift each other, and" I say rejoice". Rejoicing (encouraging) and mourning are at two different ends of the spectrum.

 

Jesus says in Matt 24:29 - Immediately after the distress of those days (after the 70th week)..... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.  This is a known event.  And the nations of the earth will mourn.  They, the nations of the earth which are mourning, will see the Son of Man coming... with great power.   How do you tie the "nations of the earth" to the "Bride of Christ".

 

Matt 24:29-31 and 1 Thes 4:13-18 are two separate and different events.  Matt 24 is a known time period.  1 Thes 4 is an unknown time period.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

 

 

This Rapture topic is based on Two major sets of Scriptures.

 

The first being:

 

Matt 24:36 - No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.  to add further; v 37, 38 -  as in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered into the Ark.

 

The Second being:

 

John 1:1, 2, 14 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,  He was in the beginning with God...  And the Word was made flesh and made his dwelling among us.  Being the Word is Jesus.

 

Here we see that all the Spoken Word and all the Written Word (Bible) is from Jesus the Son.  Everything contained in the Scriptures is of Jesus the Son.  He knows everything which is in the Word (Bible), because He is the Word.

 

Look at the words before Noah entered the Ark.  People eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.  They were having a good ole happy time.  Just as people are acting today.  A time of merriment.

 

In Contrast; those during the  70th Week are going through terrible times.  Earthquakes, severe famines, all the grasses burning up, hiding in the rocks, all living creatures in the sea dying, the sun searing people.  Calamity, people being distraught.  People living in fear, was is going to come up next. 

 

This is a totally different environment than what was going on before the flood.  Having a big party.

 

Now back to the main point;  Scripture does not give a hint of when the Rapture will occur, for only God the Father knows, Not God the Son (Word).  If you say it is in Scripture, you make God a liar, for He is the only one who knows the time of the Rapture.  How many god the fathers do we have out here knowing the timing of the Rapture.

 

This is a difficult subject, everyone has their opinion, they try to base it on Scripture, which is of Jesus.  That is where most fail.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Christ gave us several parables to understand this mystery, but parables were not meant to be taken literally. However, there are some valuable clues hidden in them that often get overlooked. It's very interesting when Christ said that before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. But when you go back to the book of Genesis and read about the days of Noah, there's no mention of eating and drinking, marrying and given in marriage. It's nowhere to be found, so what does this mean?

Christ cleverly just added that in. This is a clue about the wedding supper for those who are ready. We see a similar clue in verse 45 whereas the faithful servant will be given (meat in due season). Then verse 46 tells us who those faithful servants are that will be ready (the doers). Two will be in the field, one will be taken and the other left. One is a faithful servant, the other evil or lazy servant gets caught unaware (left), why? Because he was not doing. Ask a believer if he will be ready for the rapture. Most of them will automatically say yes, but is he a doer? That is the real question.

All of these parables in Matthew 24 & 25 are describing the gathering of the elect (rapture). Here's another:

Luke12:37-48

Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Note verse (46). He is not saying that this servant is an unbeliever, but that servant will be left with the unbelievers. Very sobering thought! Eventually this believer will have to either refuse the mark of the beast and become a martyr, or try to escape and survive (sheep) until the second coming, when the Lord returns to judge the nations and separates the sheep from the goats.

Here again, we can see three (3) different types of believer. Those who are ready will be rewarded and go to the wedding supper, but both of the other two receive punishment. One will receive a few stripes (martyrs), and the other receives many stripes (sheep), who will be separated from the goats at the second coming.

You're right that scripture does not indicate when this profound mystery will happen. Only God the Father knows the day and hour, but please note that it happens after the tribulation of those days (Matt. 24:29), which will be shortened for the sake of the elect (Matt. 24:22).

 

 

rollin thunder

 

You just quoted Scripture to support a view.  It is not there.  Those Scriptures refer to the Second Coming.  The "elect" are the 144,000 and the remnant from Israel (Zech 13:8-9)

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

So you believe the days of Noah is supportive of the second coming? It didn't have anything to do with His first advent, so why should it represent His second coming? I see no connection there whatsoever. I do see that Noah prepared himself and that he was rescued from the wrath of God's flood. And Christ will also be rescuing His servants before God's wrath visits this world a second time. So this is about the rescue, not His second coming, for even pre-tribbers know that the rapture must come before the second coming to earth.

In the Old Testament Israel was God's elect, but in the New Testament there is no distinction between the Jews and Gentiles. The word elect means chosen, as in many are called but few are chosen. And now we see Christ warning His followers that they must be ready. You are just holding on for dear life to your pre-trib rapture, but there will be no such thing. 

 

Matt. 24:31 correlates with 1 Thes. 4:16-17.  Lets take a look.

Matthew 24:30-31

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

⁽¹⁷⁾ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

Now that is a powerful connection!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Montana Marv said:

rollin thunder

 

I see no correlation there either.  I am tying the environment for the Rapture as the time before Noah for this present day; eating, drinking, marrying and giving to marriage.  This same environment is going on right now.  So we should be ready.

 

So you're saying that eating and drinking at weddings is a sign that we should be ready?  Like every time we see a rainbow we are reminded of God's promise never to destroy the world by flood again?  I don't think so.  There is nothing that you can look at with your eyes that will make you ready.  Parables are short stories to help us understand something, by offering clues that are similar, but they are not supposed to be taken literally.  Verse (46) shows which servant will be ready (the doer).   

 

Montana Marv said:

I do not correlate Matt 24:31-32 to 1 Thes 4:16-17.  With respect to Matt 24:31-32; and he (v30 is the Son of Man, not God) will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect; as compared to 1 Thes where the Lord himself (Bridegroom) gathers his bride; the angels are not gathering the Bride, it is not there in Scripture.

 

We also do not see the bridegroom and his bride mentioned anywhere in 1 Thes. 4:16-17.  Are you assuming that the bride (Church) will be ready and (all) will be raptured?  But what about the martyrs that refuse the mark?  They will not be ready to go in the rapture, yet these saints will be returning with Christ to reign on the earth also (Rev.20:4).

 

Montana Marv said:

In Matt the angels are gathering the elect from the four winds (here on earth) and from one end of heaven to the other (those elect already there).  Which of the elect are already in heaven and when did they get there.  We know the 144,000 and the Jewish remnant are still on earth at this time, plus many from other nations; What do they do, they mourn when they see the Son of Man in the sky.  What will the Bride do when they see the Bridegroom coming?  We will rejoice and not mourn.  For 1 Thes 4:18 says, encourage each other with these words, exhort each other, uplift each other, and" I say rejoice". Rejoicing (encouraging) and mourning are at two different ends of the spectrum.

 

You are correct about the four winds being here on earth, but there is no wind in the third heaven.  The gathering is in the clouds (2nd heaven) from one end of heaven to the other (from the ends of the earth).  Nothing is said about the dead in Matthew 24, because Matt. 24 is the increase of knowledge that Daniel wanted to know, but the words were shut up and sealed (Dan.12:1-4).  The dead are resurrected first, so if you want to know about them, go back and read Daniel 12:1-2.  Matthew 24 is only about those living when He appears, two in the field, two women grinding at the mill, ten virgins waiting for His return and the servants that were given talents, but nothing about dead believers is mentioned here.

 

Montana Marv said:

Jesus says in Matt 24:29 - Immediately after the distress of those days (after the 70th week)..... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.  This is a known event.  And the nations of the earth will mourn.  They, the nations of the earth which are mourning, will see the Son of Man coming... with great power.   How do you tie the "nations of the earth" to the "Bride of Christ".

 

Matt 24:29-31 and 1 Thes 4:13-18 are two separate and different events.  Matt 24 is a known time period.  1 Thes 4 is an unknown time period.

 

You seem to forget that those days are shortened for the sake of the elect, which are those servants that are ready when He appears.  However, Daniel's 70th week will not and can not be shortened.  The seven year tribulation is a man-made myth.  It's not biblical.  The time of trouble in Daniel 12 and the tribulation in Matthew 24 both begin (after) the abomination of desolation, which is the middle of Daniel's 70th week.  The gathering (rapture) will happen suddenly, but it won't be a secret as some believe.  The nations will know what just happened and the remnant in Israel will look up and know that their redemption is near.  I believe this is the event that will make Israel envious (Rom.11:11).  Now lets take a look at what Paul said about our gathering:

 

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

[2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

Paul was not talking to Jews in the passage above, but to the church in Thessalonica.  He confirmed that our gathering will be after the abomination of desolation as well.  That's all the proof one needs!

 

 

[blindwhale]

I know this doesn't count, but I had a dream that it happens during the sixth trumpet. Even so, nobody knows when.