Question for nonbelievers, atheists, seekers

[RobbyPants]

In terms of what you said: I think one can grant the practical side of the matter, that there may be practical reasons behind certain moral preferences, but that only adds a new subjective criterium to our moral preferences. What's moral then,  isn't merely what we prefer, but is what we prefer and isn't impractical. Or put another way, "murder is wrong as long as it's impractical to commit it".

Well, I wasn't arguing whether or not murder was practical, but that it's flat-out detrimental to a cohesive society. If you have to seriously worry about whether or not you are going to be murdered, it makes it pretty hard to carry on basic commerce, or to work on large-scale projects, like making and running a hospital.

I could say that, under my view, "morality" would be split into two groups:

1) The stuff that is necessary for keeping society running, and

2) The subjective stuff.

Sometimes, they coincide quite nicely (most people don't have a stomach for murder). Sometimes not (should gay people be allowed to marry?).

 

As such it seems that humans being are ends in themselves, not mere means to an end. If morality is reduced to the view of preferences which have practical benefit for society as a whole then it appears that human beings are mere means to an end. The end being a certain societal ideal. If the greater number of people in a group determines that killing the rest will better society and is practically viable, then suddenly, such a goal would have to be considered morally good.

I'd say that is an assumption, or perhaps an opinion. Not necessarily a bad one, but I don't know that it's innately true. It sounds a lot like the framework of Kant's ethics. 

Moreover, what's better for society and practically viable depends on who you ask. The Nazis preferred and practically pursued a society where there were no people that they deemed inferior. The idea was to create a better society based on giving natural selection a hand. To them society excluded certain ethnicities which they deemed "live not worthy of life".

Some groups might prefer and practically pursue a different ideal, such as a society with a vastly reduced human population to reduce the strain on natural resources (think Georgia Guide Stones) To such a group society might refer to some wealthy elite.

Other groups may not even consider human beings as that important and that what's beneficial to the earth as a whole is more important than merely benefitting a single species of primate. Such people might refer to you an me as selfish speciesists. To them society means the entire planet.

A pro-choice activist might exclude foetuses of a certain age from "society" and thus view the ending of their lives as practically viable.

Yeah, social Darwinism is creepy, and you can make an argument for it using arguments from the majority. A lot of times, societies do attempt this sort of thing. The US had it's own eugenics program most of a century ago (one that Hitler modeled, creepily enough!). It's more of the subjective half of society that decides that we shouldn't treat the minority that way. I think there is a bit of a practical side as well, in that we wouldn't want to be treated that way as a minority.

To summarise one can say that loving a child vs torturing a child becomes morally equivalent, the only difference being that the latter is of less practical benefit(whatever that may be) to the greater society(however one chooses to define it) and thus, shouldn't be preferred by the individual who ought to look out for their own long term interests.

 

I'm not so sure that such a view matches up to the way we look at our fellow human beings and the way we experience morality on a day-to-day basis.

Well, again, I'd say that it would be pretty hard to participate in a society if I had a continuous fear of being tortured. We don't decide not to torture because it isn't as useful, it's because to do so would cause problems.

[Abishai100]

Why are Wiccans (non-Christian practitioners of witchcraft) evidently persecuted for their seemingly heretical beliefs in a God-less force-guided nature?  Wiccans often pray to elements of Earth and air believing these elements bring forth fortune or power.

 

Wiccans are often called witches and many witches are women.  We know that men commit sins of adultery and theft (and brutality).  We also know that men claim interests in such sins, especially theft, out of a desire for labor simplification even through unethical short-cuts.  Women of course have their own sins: betrayal, diabolical soothsaying, and sexual misconduct.  If male thieves such as Clyde Barrow are deified and romanticized, why are female witches ostracized?

 

Atheists do not believe in a supreme God, and witches believe in the supremacy of natural forces and minerals.  If witches practice their philosophy peacefully, there is no real harm from a social perspective.  Some believe female superheroes (or superheroines) in comic books lend a supportive voice to witches and female practitioners of Wiccan philosophy.

 

The comic book character She-Hulk is a super-strong woman who represents fears of strength arrogance.  Indeed, She-Hulk is influential in discussions of modern steroid use.  Could She-Hulk reflect a psyche curiosity about feminine magic?  Incidentally, She-Hulk serves as a great character foil in American culture to the beloved vegetable corporation Green Giant titan mascot.

[kwikphilly]

Blessings Abishai,

     I have noticed before you use the term wiccan  and you must be reading someones interpretation of it but it is not  non -Christian practitioners of witchcraft as you have defined and the origin of this word(which means witch-no pun intended)comes from the Old Enlgish word wica,it was later capitolized and another "C" added.....they try to say the original meaning was"wise one"when it is believed the actual meaning is "blend".....it is where the word wicker was derived.The only reason I have for addressing this is because I was a wicca and practiced "wicca can"(witchcraft)right before I was saved....it disturbs me to see a person has some particular interest in this unGodly practice and contrary to anything you have heard or read is probably nothing but lies and deceit....as the most popular belief of any witch is"power shared is power lost"so don't believe for one minute of the peaceful prayers to earth,air and the elements as portrayed in the movie "the craft"

    You better believe there is plenty of harm from a social perspective if witches peacefully practice their philosophy...they are summoning the rulers of darkness,demons,fallen angels to do their bidding and you really don't want to be anywhere near them.....like Gods Word tells us you shouldn't even speak of these things.I am concerned that you may have some sort of fascination with these since I have seen the word more than one time....please.....do not entertain these thoughts in your mind,focus on God,talk to Jesus,read the Bible,speak of heavenly things and things above

    Witches blend in very well and you may even sit next to one in church.We must always put on the full armor of God,pray without ceasing and keep God first in our lives....Christ died that we shall not perish but have everlasting life,,,he suffered unimaginably that we may be free from any bondage,sin,sickness,evil and live a life more abundantly ....because of Him we can speak directly with our Father...we are pure and holy and worthy ,spotless covered by His Blood.Why would we ever want to think of anything but Him

    I apologize if I am off topic but this talk of witches concerns me and I ignored it last time I saw it and could not be silent now,we have to speak out against abominations and be sure to keep one another out of harms way,Jesus loves us and has joined us together as members of His Body,we must all look out for the other member that we may function effectively...................bringing the good news of salvation to all men...in the Name of Christ Jesus

                                                                                                   With love,in Christ-Kwik

[LuftWaffle]

Hi Mr. Pants

 

Well, I wasn't arguing whether or not murder was practical, but that it's flat-out detrimental to a cohesive society.

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I was responding to what you said here:

"My issue with this is that you are limiting the subjective view on murder to "I don't like it". While in the strictest sense of the word, this is true; however, there are a lot of pragmatic reasons for not allowing it, regardless of whether or not you can point to a higher authority."

 

It seemed like you were attempting to ground morality in terms of what's practical.

 

In terms of talking about what's detrimental to a cohesive society, it looks as though you're hoping to ground morality in whatever is conducive to human flourishing. This seems quite close to Sam Harris' moral landscape, which is an attempt at grounding morality objectively. The problem with that is that numerous theistic as well as atheistic philosophers don't find the notion compelling.

As I understand it, what ever makes humans flourish is getting what they prefer, so we're back to a sort of cultural preference model, which isn't objective at all.

 

Sometimes, they coincide quite nicely (most people don't have a stomach for murder). Sometimes not (should gay people be allowed to marry?).

I can agree with that. To say "objective morals exist" doesn't require all morals to be objective. The statement would be true even if there was only one.

Having said that, in principle I still think most differences are epistemological and not a matter of moral values and duties being relative.

 

I'd say that is an assumption, or perhaps an opinion. Not necessarily a bad one, but I don't know that it's innately true. It sounds a lot like the framework of Kant's ethics. 

While Kant may have stated it in that way, I think the view is much older. Essentially the idea that all people are created in God's image and thus have intrinsic value underpins the whole thing.

I wouldn't say it's merely an assumption or an opinion. Again when we take our philosophical hats off and step out into the real world, people as a rule seem to live by that rule. A good model of ethics, I think should be able to make sense of it, other than merely dismissing it as illusory.

I understand that if one is committed to materialism then there's certainly no way to establish human value, but I don't believe that the only things that matter are things than can be empirically verified, and I see no reason to limit my resources for knowledge in such a way.

 

Yeah, social Darwinism is creepy, and you can make an argument for it using arguments from the majority.

Indeed, tyranny of the masses.

I think modern democracies are leaning toward that though. People don't vote on what's best, but on what ever media influences the majority to think. As such it's become a top down model instead of a bottom up model....but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[LuftWaffle]

Why are Wiccans (non-Christian practitioners of witchcraft) evidently persecuted for their seemingly heretical beliefs in a God-less force-guided nature?  Wiccans often pray to elements of Earth and air believing these elements bring forth fortune or power.

 

Wiccans are often called witches and many witches are women.  We know that men commit sins of adultery and theft (and brutality).  We also know that men claim interests in such sins, especially theft, out of a desire for labor simplification even through unethical short-cuts.  Women of course have their own sins: betrayal, diabolical soothsaying, and sexual misconduct.  If male thieves such as Clyde Barrow are deified and romanticized, why are female witches ostracized?

 

Atheists do not believe in a supreme God, and witches believe in the supremacy of natural forces and minerals.  If witches practice their philosophy peacefully, there is no real harm from a social perspective.  Some believe female superheroes (or superheroines) in comic books lend a supportive voice to witches and female practitioners of Wiccan philosophy.

 

The comic book character She-Hulk is a super-strong woman who represents fears of strength arrogance.  Indeed, She-Hulk is influential in discussions of modern steroid use.  Could She-Hulk reflect a psyche curiosity about feminine magic?  Incidentally, She-Hulk serves as a great character foil in American culture to the beloved vegetable corporation Green Giant titan mascot.

 

I'm not too clued up on this, but if Wicca is the worship of nature (elements of the earth and air) and human beings are themselves comprised of the elements of earth and air, then it seems any complaint about what humans do is invalid.

 

It seems the problem is a perceived chauvinism in society, but aren't chauvinists themselves part of the earth and air, and comprised of the natural forces and minerals?

[Guest]

Why are Wiccans (non-Christian practitioners of witchcraft) evidently persecuted for their seemingly heretical beliefs in a God-less force-guided nature?  Wiccans often pray to elements of Earth and air believing these elements bring forth fortune or power.

 

Wiccans are often called witches and many witches are women.  We know that men commit sins of adultery and theft (and brutality).  We also know that men claim interests in such sins, especially theft, out of a desire for labor simplification even through unethical short-cuts.  Women of course have their own sins: betrayal, diabolical soothsaying, and sexual misconduct.  If male thieves such as Clyde Barrow are deified and romanticized, why are female witches ostracized?

 

I'm not too clued up on this, but if Wicca is the worship of nature (elements of the earth and air) and human beings are themselves comprised of the elements of earth and air, then it seems any complaint about what humans do is invalid.

 

It seems the problem is a perceived chauvinism in society, but aren't chauvinists themselves part of the earth and air, and comprised of the natural forces and minerals?

 

   

 

~

 

For all the gods of the people are idols: but the LORD made the heavens. 1 Chronicles 16:26

[GoldenEagle]

Why are Wiccans (non-Christian practitioners of witchcraft) evidently persecuted for their seemingly heretical beliefs in a God-less force-guided nature?  Wiccans often pray to elements of Earth and air believing these elements bring forth fortune or power.

 

Wiccans are often called witches and many witches are women.  We know that men commit sins of adultery and theft (and brutality).  We also know that men claim interests in such sins, especially theft, out of a desire for labor simplification even through unethical short-cuts.  Women of course have their own sins: betrayal, diabolical soothsaying, and sexual misconduct.  If male thieves such as Clyde Barrow are deified and romanticized, why are female witches ostracized?

 

Atheists do not believe in a supreme God, and witches believe in the supremacy of natural forces and minerals.  If witches practice their philosophy peacefully, there is no real harm from a social perspective.  Some believe female superheroes (or superheroines) in comic books lend a supportive voice to witches and female practitioners of Wiccan philosophy.

 

The comic book character She-Hulk is a super-strong woman who represents fears of strength arrogance.  Indeed, She-Hulk is influential in discussions of modern steroid use.  Could She-Hulk reflect a psyche curiosity about feminine magic?  Incidentally, She-Hulk serves as a great character foil in American culture to the beloved vegetable corporation Green Giant titan mascot.

 

Hi Abishai interesting thoughts. Curious who is Jesus Christ to you?

 

God bless,

GE

[Hippie333]

Why are Wiccans (non-Christian practitioners of witchcraft) evidently persecuted for their seemingly heretical beliefs in a God-less force-guided nature?  Wiccans often pray to elements of Earth and air believing these elements bring forth fortune or power.

 

Wiccans are often called witches and many witches are women.  We know that men commit sins of adultery and theft (and brutality).  We also know that men claim interests in such sins, especially theft, out of a desire for labor simplification even through unethical short-cuts.  Women of course have their own sins: betrayal, diabolical soothsaying, and sexual misconduct.  If male thieves such as Clyde Barrow are deified and romanticized, why are female witches ostracized?

 

Atheists do not believe in a supreme God, and witches believe in the supremacy of natural forces and minerals.  If witches practice their philosophy peacefully, there is no real harm from a social perspective.  Some believe female superheroes (or superheroines) in comic books lend a supportive voice to witches and female practitioners of Wiccan philosophy.

 

The comic book character She-Hulk is a super-strong woman who represents fears of strength arrogance.  Indeed, She-Hulk is influential in discussions of modern steroid use.  Could She-Hulk reflect a psyche curiosity about feminine magic?  Incidentally, She-Hulk serves as a great character foil in American culture to the beloved vegetable corporation Green Giant titan mascot.

Perhaps I have misread or just don't understand your phrasing ( in the highlighted in red text from your post above ) - I was not aware that men and women had "different sins".

 

If witches practice their philosophy peacefully, there is no real harm from a social perspective  - As the word of God has said clearly that witchcraft / magic and the like will bring -

Gal 5:19  Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

 

Social impact is there whether it's peacefully practiced or not. One could very well lead many astray with false teachings - and that is usually done by "tickling the ears" ( peaceful processes) -

 

If I have misunderstood your comments I apologize - but I do feel some clarification is needed for myself and some others on just what it is in this post and a few others on what it is you are trying to state.

 

God Bless,

 Hippie

[Diatheosis]

probably might be a thread on its own, but about witchcraft or whatever one wishes to call it. Nowadays we see rather a different view on it even in the media than before. Of course, persecuting someone is always a questionable act matter for what purposes. However, something I would like to address here, is that no matter if one practices 'white magic' or black magic, is it not always required to have this circle inside which those involved must stay during the rites? If the so called white magic is supposed to be good, why does one need to protect against the spirits summoned upon? Yet we see it presented to us by the holywood media as something to use against the dark magic. Of course, it always comes to discernment. And any sort of discernment, but that of the Holy Spirit. You won't get that one without getting Jesus first. To get Him, you must really realize what He is about and understand without Him we have no hope whatsoever if we look at the human nature with God's perspective. But we have Him, and we can make Him our Lord any time. Thus all the treasures of eternity are granted us also.

 

One must first come to realize the burden of our heart without His saving grace. Are you ready for Him? Because He is ALWAYS ready for you.

[RobbyPants]

Why are Wiccans (non-Christian practitioners of witchcraft) evidently persecuted for their seemingly heretical beliefs in a God-less force-guided nature?  Wiccans often pray to elements of Earth and air believing these elements bring forth fortune or power.

I knew a few Wiccans in college, and from what I learned from them, they do believe in gods. They believe in two gods, a male god and female goddess, each with three aspects (both good and bad). They do tend to venerate nature, but they believe it works through those aspects (so one aspect might promote life through birth, and another promotes death through hunting, or the circle of life).

That being said, another thing I learned about Wiccans is, if you ask ten Wiccan's what Wicca is, you will get ten answers. They don't have a centralized "holy book" that contains all of the rules or beliefs for the religion. About the most common rules you will hear is the whole "rule of three" (deeds you commit are revisited upon you three-fold; I am honestly now sure how this is supposed to work) and the "do as you will as long as it harms no other". Other than that, it's a free-for-all, complete with three-legged cauldrons and herbs!