Guest shiloh357 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I knew at times the bad things my children would do but I didn't discipline them until they did them. What do you say I should have done ? Not having children is a start. The only logical answer I can come up with is that: There is a distinction between: inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known. total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known. Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.[2] Ok, now we're getting somewhere, but all I'm seeing is personal beliefs from theologians. Is there scripture that proves inherent omniscience? That's sounds similar to Open Theism, which is the belief that God doesn't know the choices you and I will make. Open Theism argues that God knows what He has pre-determined to happen in the future but doesn't know which of us will accept or reject Jesus as Savior. I don't know if Open Theism contains the view that God purposely limits his omniscience, but it certainly contains a different take on omniscience than most traditional theologians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 21, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2013 I'm not sure if there is evidence of that in scriptures. Keep in mind that not all answers can be proven by scriptures, although many can be to the self by spiritual discernment. What does your spirit tell you about the above definitions of Omniscience? Pray about it and see what your spirit tells you afterwards. Just a thought... Thank you Hall7, blessings. We could also go through these and see if there is proof of total omniscience..http://www.openbible.info/topics/omniscience Sounds like a plan Let's do a little study from the scriptures of the link you posted which include: Psalm 147:5 ESV / 55 helpful votes Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure. 1 John 3:20 ESV / 41 helpful votes For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Jeremiah 1:5 ESV / 26 helpful votes “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Isaiah 40:28 ESV / 24 helpful votes Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable. Jeremiah 23:24 ESV / 21 helpful votes Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? declares the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? declares the Lord. Psalm 139:1-6 ESV / 15 helpful votes To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. O Lord, you have searched me and known me! You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. ... Isaiah 40:13-14 ESV / 14 helpful votes Who has measured the Spirit of the Lord, or what man shows him his counsel? Whom did he consult, and who made him understand? Who taught him the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding? Matthew 10:30 ESV / 13 helpful votes But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. Psalm 147:4-5 ESV / 13 helpful votes He determines the number of the stars; he gives to all of them their names. Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure. Acts 1:24 ESV / 11 helpful votes And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen Romans 11:33-36 ESV / 10 helpful votes Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?” “Or who has given a gift to him that he might be repaid?” For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. 1 Chronicles 28:9 ESV / 10 helpful votes “And you, Solomon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a whole heart and with a willing mind, for the Lord searches all hearts and understands every plan and thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will cast you off forever. Hebrews 4:13 ESV / 9 helpful votes And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account. 1 Corinthians 2:11 ESV / 8 helpful votes For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Jeremiah 29:11 ESV / 7 helpful votes For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope. Deuteronomy 29:29 ESV / 6 helpful votes “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. Romans 8:29 ESV / 5 helpful votes For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Revelation 1:8 ESV / 4 helpful votes “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” John 3:17 ESV / 4 helpful votes For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Mark 2:1-16 ESV / 4 helpful votes And when he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home. And many were gathered together, so that there was no more room, not even at the door. And he was preaching the word to them. And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him, and when they had made an opening, they let down the bed on which the paralytic lay. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” ... Job 37:15-16 ESV / 4 helpful votes Do you know how God lays his command upon them and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine? Do you know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge, Numbers 23:19 ESV / 4 helpful votes God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? Revelation 3:3 ESV / 3 helpful votes Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Micah 1:6 ESV / 3 helpful votes Therefore I will make Samaria a heap in the open country, a place for planting vineyards, and I will pour down her stones into the valley and uncover her foundations. Job 5:12-14 ESV / 3 helpful votes He frustrates the devices of the crafty, so that their hands achieve no success. He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are brought to a quick end. They meet with darkness in the daytime and grope at noonday as in the night. Joshua 1:18 ESV / 3 helpful votes Whoever rebels against your commandment and disobeys your words, whatever you command him, shall be put to death. Only be strong and courageous.” Exodus 3:14 ESV / 3 helpful votes God said to Moses, “I am who I am.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” Genesis 3:11 ESV / 3 helpful votes He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten of the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?” Genesis 1:30 ESV / 3 helpful votes And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. Isaiah 57:15 ESV / 2 helpful votes For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Isaiah 42:9 ESV / 2 helpful votes Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.” Job 4:1-21 ESV / 2 helpful votes Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said: “If one ventures a word with you, will you be impatient? Yet who can keep from speaking? Behold, you have instructed many, and you have strengthened the weak hands. Your words have upheld him who was stumbling, and you have made firm the feeble knees. But now it has come to you, and you are impatient; it touches you, and you are dismayed. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 21, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2013 I'll see if Kwik can help us and take part of the understanding of these scriptures to determine whether or not God seems to have "total Omniscience". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 21, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2013 I knew at times the bad things my children would do but I didn't discipline them until they did them. What do you say I should have done ? Not having children is a start. The only logical answer I can come up with is that: There is a distinction between: inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known. total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known. Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures.[2] Ok, now we're getting somewhere, but all I'm seeing is personal beliefs from theologians. Is there scripture that proves inherent omniscience? That's sounds similar to Open Theism, which is the belief that God doesn't know the choices you and I will make. Open Theism argues that God knows what He has pre-determined to happen in the future but doesn't know which of us will accept or reject Jesus as Savior. I don't know if Open Theism contains the view that God purposely limits his omniscience, but it certainly contains a different take on omniscience than most traditional theologians. Makes sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I'll see if Kwik can help us and take part of the understanding of these scriptures to determine whether or not God seems to have "total Omniscience". Sounds good. Maybe we'll come to revelation. Blessings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ninhao Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I knew at times the bad things my children would do but I didn't discipline them until they did them. What do you say I should have done ? Not having children is a start. Yes some people feel this way. Fortunately God desires family and Created Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted October 21, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,143 Content Per Day: 4.62 Reputation: 27,832 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2013 Blessings to Everyone, My Beloved Brother Hall text'd me to invite me to join in on the discussion here with y'all & I am not sure how well that will go as I am having difficulty with my computer right now,so if you would'nt mind saying a little prayer that the Good Lord will make way for me to get this resolved(I do appreciate it)and God bless you all! I understand that many modern theologists do lean towards inherent omniscience to describe what they think would seem like a good explanation for God to preserve mans free will which really makes no sense to me at all...God is omniscient period....being all knowing He does not have to limit His knowing in anyway to preserve mans free will......knowing what choices man will make does not interfere with those choices..... Before God laid down the foundations of the earth He knew each & every one of us & knew who would choose salvation through & by Christ Jesus....the only reason we have such a difficult time understanding all these things is that we are bound by space & time and God is not......when we speak of predestination we are forgetting that God IS in past ,present & future(from Everlasting to Everlasting).Before we even reach the time where will make a choice God is already there,does that mean He has interfered with our choices,of course not....does that mean that our choices were presupposed by God,absolutely not....He just knows what they are! Our Loving Father knew that we would need a Savior & He did not even spare His only begotten Son to take our place for the remission of sin,to be reconciled back to Him that NONE should perish but have everlasting life....if that does not give us His blessed assurance that He desires that everyone be saved then nothing does...knowing who will & who will not accept His gift of salvation has nothing to do with His desire that all be saved & does not in any way determine that for anyone I hoped & prayed that my own son would come to Jesus because I love Him,Gods love for us is even greater and much the same ...whether I had the knowledge of what my son would or would not do ,I still could not make that choice for Him just as God does not make our choices for us.......God does not want robots programmed to love & worship Him,thats why He gave us free will With love,in Christ-Kwik My dear Friend & Brother Hall...you so kindly gave reference to many verses on scripture,I do hope my little interjection puts a little light on these in a very simple way..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hall7 Posted October 21, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,385 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 491 Days Won: 5 Joined: 04/25/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted October 21, 2013 Blessings to Everyone, My Beloved Brother Hall text'd me to invite me to join in on the discussion here with y'all & I am not sure how well that will go as I am having difficulty with my computer right now,so if you would'nt mind saying a little prayer that the Good Lord will make way for me to get this resolved(I do appreciate it)and God bless you all! I understand that many modern theologists do lean towards inherent omniscience to describe what they think would seem like a good explanation for God to preserve mans free will which really makes no sense to me at all...God is omniscient period....being all knowing He does not have to limit His knowing in anyway to preserve mans free will......knowing what choices man will make does not interfere with those choices..... Before God laid down the foundations of the earth He knew each & every one of us & knew who would choose salvation through & by Christ Jesus....the only reason we have such a difficult time understanding all these things is that we are bound by space & time and God is not......when we speak of predestination we are forgetting that God IS in past ,present & future(from Everlasting to Everlasting).Before we even reach the time where will make a choice God is already there,does that mean He has interfered with our choices,of course not....does that mean that our choices were presupposed by God,absolutely not....He just knows what they are! Our Loving Father knew that we would need a Savior & He did not even spare His only begotten Son to take our place for the remission of sin,to be reconciled back to Him that NONE should perish but have everlasting life....if that does not give us His blessed assurance that He desires that everyone be saved then nothing does...knowing who will & who will not accept His gift of salvation has nothing to do with His desire that all be saved & does not in any way determine that for anyone I hoped & prayed that my own son would come to Jesus because I love Him,Gods love for us is even greater and much the same ...whether I had the knowledge of what my son would or would not do ,I still could not make that choice for Him just as God does not make our choices for us.......God does not want robots programmed to love & worship Him,thats why He gave us free will With love,in Christ-Kwik My dear Friend & Brother Hall...you so kindly gave reference to many verses on scripture,I do hope my little interjection puts a little light on these in a very simple way..... Thanks Kwik. So I guess you also disagree with the idea of "open Theism" shiloh357 mentioned. Well there you have it from another point of view DRS81 . I'll leave this discussion because it could probably go on forever. To me it doesn't matter if it is Inherent or total, it doesn't budge my faith because I have "personally" experienced enough things God has done for me in my life to know that Our God is a good God... Blessings, Hall7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 There is a distinction between: inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known. total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known. ~ Inherent Omniscience - The Ability To Know Anything That One Chooses To Know And Can Be Known But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9 Total Omniscience - Actually Knowing Everything That Can Be Known Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Isaiah 46:9-10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Before we even reach the time where will make a choice God is already there,does that mean He has interfered with our choices,of course not....does that mean that our choices were presupposed by God,absolutely not....He just knows what they are! Are you sure God isn't "interfering". I would rather want God to interfere. Come Holy Spirit!! (John 16:7-11 Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.) How does this not affect our free will? I choose God's will over my own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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