RobbyPants Posted August 27, 2013 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 166 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 15 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/27/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2013 God leaves the choice to us. But He chooses those whom He can forsee will Choose Him. He predestins them to salvation. Since everyone is bound for hell by default, only those who choose Christ escape hell. Their names are written in the Lambs Book of Life. But where's the "choice" if God's omniscience is more notable than our free will. God leaves the choice to us, but HE chooses?? I don't understand, which one is it? It would be both, in an odd sense. We have free will relative to our own decisions, but God already knew what we were going to do before we were made, and before he created hell, and before he set the rules. So, while we technically have the choice to behave however we want, it's already known what will happen to us before we make the decisions. In short, we have free will relative to our own perception, but not to the person who is judging us. I think this is the basis of the concept of "the elect" in Calvinism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steel Oxide Posted August 27, 2013 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 4 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/25/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2013 I wonder, if God knows who is going to hell and heaven, why would he bother creating those who are destined for hell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 I wonder, if God knows who is going to hell and heaven, why would he bother creating those who are destined for hell? My question exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeedYouLord Posted August 27, 2013 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 21 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 601 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 196 Days Won: 3 Joined: 04/27/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 27, 2013 I'm defending the belief that God does not predestine his children, that he loves ALL of humanity.. and ALL human beings have a choice to choose salvation or death. If God predestine's his children, then what's the point of preaching. Matthew 11:28 Come to me, ALL who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. I have just witnessed let's say a response that was filled with The Spirit of God...Whew...I love it when that happens...When a quote can just be partially requoted and taken so far out of context by others and then the response is LOVE...oh my...I Love That!!! There isn't much more that I can say except here again...I'm led to share...knowing only in part-that's why we need brothers and sisters that believe-because they know the other part, Hahaha!!! And that's the way it works for me...someone can say the same thing a dozen times and it will be the dozen and one time that clicks... So...this is a little of the understanding that I have come to through The Shed Blood of Jesus...by The Infilling of The Holy Spirit...By my making the decision that I knew nothing and needed help...not a biblical scholar by any means...Just want to Walk In Love...and be changed and loved and changed...going from faith to faith-glory to glory...Oh my... It's already been said that God is in "eternity" and we know that we are in the dimension of time...I heard a teaching on this one time and it just helped me beyond belief... When we are born we are without God...and in the world...Fulfilling the desires of the flesh and the world according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience. Eph 2 Believe me having had a child so late in life...I can see it...we have to come to believe What God Did For Us...but when we are "born again"-I truly believe that is when we are made aware of the predestined part...There have been times when The Words of The Bible Would Come Out of My Mouth and I Didn't Even Know Until Later That It Was In The Bible!!! I Have Had Experiences That I Didn't Know What Was Happening Until I Found It Later In The Bible...People Looked At me and Still Do Like I'm Crazy and I'm Just Experiencing What The Apostles Experienced...Anyway...Called So God Has A Plan...He Made That Plan Before The World Was...and He Made It Perfectly... So here we come along-(2000 years later) not knowing anything and we are in That Plan...But Not Yet-Some of us...Not Yet...But Maybe A Year From Now-some of us. Maybe 2 years from now...And so The Holy Spirit knocks on the door of your heart...Hello, I'm here to draw you to Your Creator (this is where the preaching comes in too-the anointed preaching)...No, not now God-I'm trying to get rich before I die (this person hasn't read The Bible yet or else they would know about that) 3 months later...things not going so good and now My God is Alcohol...or Drugs or another person...Worshipping Idols...how many times did I worship at the throne of this world (the toilet?) many many times!!! Should have been dead a million times over... When am I going to choose God? or am I ever? Am I going to lay aside what I think...my pride...my everything...because evenutally it will be everything because that prince of the power of the air will take everything!!! Comes to steal, kill and destroy...Will I die Without God-I Came Within a Millisecond of doing just that and have lived-to live and see what I would have missed...Oh my...The Greatest Love Known To Mankind...I Would Have Never Been Loved Like That!!! So here we are: 2 plans for our lives...one from God one from satan...Which one do we choose? Will we change our mind? Many of us don't think we can-we are afraid to-but my life came bitterly to a Crossroad-and I was forced to choose...Will we allow God to renew our minds and show us The Way, The Truth and The Life? I keep going back to: Somehow the predestined part only shows up when we choose God and Are Changed By His Spirit..."Born Again"...Because He Keeps Bringing up That Christ, Himself Gives Gifts...God can't use a vessel that hasn't been Washed In The Blood of The Lamb...that hasn't given up and died so that it can live...So many wonderful mysteries that have to be lived to be understood...Whew...God You Are So Good... Love to you In Him, Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hansc Posted August 28, 2013 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 29 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/12/2012 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2013 Another way of framing the discussion: (GOD IS strong enough to save everyone) + (GOD DOES NOT want to save everyone) = Everyone IS NOT saved (GOD IS NOT strong enough to save everyone) + (GOD DOES want to save everyone) = Everyone IS NOT saved (GOD IS strong enough to save everyone) + (GOD DOES want to save everyone) = Everyone IS saved The problem with this view is that it denies the freedom of decision that God gives to people. Yes, He is strong enough and Yes He wants all to be saved, but will not force Himself on anyone. This as "framed" leaves no room for a person to receive Christ by an act of faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elhanan Posted August 28, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 322 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 30 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/18/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2013 Another way of framing the discussion: (GOD IS strong enough to save everyone) + (GOD DOES NOT want to save everyone) = Everyone IS NOT saved (GOD IS NOT strong enough to save everyone) + (GOD DOES want to save everyone) = Everyone IS NOT saved (GOD IS strong enough to save everyone) + (GOD DOES want to save everyone) = Everyone IS saved The problem with this view is that it denies the freedom of decision that God gives to people. Yes, He is strong enough and Yes He wants all to be saved, but will not force Himself on anyone. This as "framed" leaves no room for a person to receive Christ by an act of faith. I agree with you that God will not force himself and violate anyone's volition. However I believe that there is still room for a person to make a decision on their own as God being sovereign and omnipotent, can always create circumstances in a person's life resulting in a person choosing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 I wonder, if God knows who is going to hell and heaven, why would he bother creating those who are destined for hell? ~ I Wonder If The Accusers Of The Creator But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:8-9 Really Want To Know The Truth For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Jeremiah 29:11 And If The Answer Is Yes The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee. Jeremiah 31:3 Will They Really Act For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 Or Just Sit The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36 I Wonder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DRS81 Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Is it even possible to get a straight answer on this topic. One poster believes in predestination and another will believe that God loves all and wants all to be saved. Should we just consider this a mystery of God and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted August 28, 2013 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,143 Content Per Day: 4.62 Reputation: 27,832 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2013 Hi DRS81, I think you have gotten a straight answer from every single one of our brothers and sisters on this topic,their answers.....I have posted my view earlier on and I truly believe that because God is the beginning and the end and is not bound by space or time that we have a hard time understanding many things and this thread has gone off topic and onto"predestination'...................but I do believe that the simple answer to your simple question is"YES"....God DESIRES that all be saved because He said so in His Word as to why He sent His only begotten Son.....so that NONE should perish I think I am safe to say that none would disagree that is our Fathers desire,as far as the "hows" & the "whens''(lol)....well,your probably right...we can call it a mystery of God! In Christ & with much Love,Khwik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoc Posted September 15, 2013 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 153 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 16 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted September 15, 2013 It's a controversial topic in Christianity. There are three attributes of GOD which, as Christians we need to keep in the forefront our mind: omniscient,omnipotent, and omnipresent. Scriptures: Isaiah 46:10 (NKJV) 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ Romans 9:21 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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