Does God DESIRE to save everyone?

[Butch5]

 

 

Hi butch,

 

I already found that source yesterday when I was trying to figure out where that idea came from. That was the only group that I could find.

 

 

Your first mistake is saying that the grammar requires it.

 

It does not.

Paul is talking about (we, us) believers (including jew and gentile) and then breaks it down to the two groups in verses 11, and 13. The word “also” is the key.

The one group that he came from and the other group which the Ephesians came from.

 

 

Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Robertson who is a famous grammarian shows that Paul is talking about believers.

 

 

The complexity of your argument requires it to be broken it down one point at a time. So I am trying to work on verse 3 first.

 

3 ¶  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

 

Robertson word pictures,

 

Blessed (ευλογητος). Verbal of ευλογεω, common in the LXX for Hebrew baruk (Vulgate benedictus) and applied usually to God, sometimes to men (#Ge 24:31), but in N.T. always to God (#Lu 1:68), while ευλογημενος (perfect passive participle) is applied to men (#Lu 1:42). "While ευλογημενος points to an isolated act or acts, ευλογητος describes the intrinsic character" (Lightfoot). Instead of the usual ευχαριστουμεν (#Col 1:3) Paul here uses ευλογητος, elsewhere only in #2Co 1:3 in opening, though in a doxology in #Ro 1:25; 9:5; 2Co 11:31. The copula here is probably εστιν (is), though either εστω (imperative) or ειη (optative as wish) will make sense.

 

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (ο θεος και πατηρ του κυριου ημων ιησου χριστου). και is genuine here, though not in #Col 1:3. The one article (ο) with θεος και πατηρ links them together as in #1Th 1:3; 3:11,13; Ga 1:4. See also the one article in #2Pe 1:1,11. In #Eph 1:17 we have ο θεος του κυριου ημσν ιησου χριστου, and the words of Jesus in #Joh 20:17.

 

Who hath blessed us (ο ευλογησας υμας).  First aorist active participle of ευλογεω, the same word, antecedent action to the doxology (ευλογητος).

 

With (εν). So-called instrumental use of εν though

 

in is clear.

 

Every spiritual blessing (παση ευλογια πνευματικη). Third use of the root ευλογ (verbal, verb, substantive). Paul lovingly plays with the idea. The believer is a citizen of heaven and the spiritual blessings count for most to him.

 

In the heavenly places in Christ (εν τοις επουρανιοις εν χριστω). In four other places in Eph. (#1:20; 2:6; 3:10; 6:12). This precise phrase (with εν) occurs nowhere else in the N.T. and has a clearly local meaning in #1:20; 2:6; 3:10, doubtful in #6:12, but probably so here. In #2:6 the believer is conceived as already seated with Christ. Heaven is the real abode of the citizen of Christ’s kingdom (#Php 3:20) who is a stranger on earth (#Php 1:27; Eph 2:19). The word επουρανιος (heavenly) occurs in various passages in the N.T. in contrast with τα επιγεια (the earthly) as in #Joh 3:12; #1Co 15:40,48,49; Php 2:10, with πατρις (country) in #Heb 11:16, with κλησις (calling) in #Heb 3:1, with δωρεα (gift) in #Heb 6:4, with βασιλεια (kingdom) in #2Ti 4:18. 

 

God bless,

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

The we in verse 11 have already obtained an inheritance, the other group had not. The other had only received the down payment on a future inheritance. Paul uses the past tense regarding the inheritance of the first group.

 

⁷ And Moses called unto Joshua, and said unto him in the sight of all Israel, Be strong and of a good courage: for thou must go with this people unto the land which the LORD hath sworn unto their fathers to give them; and thou shalt cause them to inherit it. (Deu 31:7 KJV)

 

This is Israel, the Jews. This is what Paul is referring to in verse 11. The Gentiles had not received and inheritance from God. Verse 11 cannot be speaking of the Gentiles. Therefore, the we, us, our, group cannot be the Gentile Ephesians.

 

Also as I pointed out there's no reason for Paul to pray that God would give them something it he just said God gave it to them.

 

As I also pointed out this is not  a new understanding, it s a very old one. Actually, it is the oldest understanding that we have written on the passage. It predates all of these modern commentaries.

 

 

 

Hi Butch,

 

 

You may have one early church father but I am reserving judgment until I feel like looking into it. But I have read some myself on their beliefs and I am not impressed with things like believing in the phoenix or their non agreement on just about everything. 

When I read their works they don’t speak to me like the Word of God does.

 

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14  Which is the earnest of      our      inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

So now Paul jumps over to being a gentile?

 

I’m not sure how you get your conclusions but they seem all tangled up to me.

 

10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

When?

That in the dispensation of the fulness of times

Not back then with Moses.

 

11  In whom also we

 

And who else has obtained an inheritance?

 

 

Perhaps this will be clearer

 

Net Bible,

 

 11 In Christ[28] we too have been claimed as God’s own possession,[29] since we were predestined according to the one purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will

Eph 1:11 (NET1)

 

We too?

 

As opposed to who?

 

 

Verse 11

28 tn Grk “in whom,” as a continuation of the previous verse.

29 tn Grk “we were appointed by lot.” The notion of the verb κληρόω (klēroō) in the OT was to “appoint a portion by lot” (the more frequent cognate verb κληρονομέω [klēronomeō] meant “obtain a portion by lot”). In the passive, as here, the idea is that “we were appointed [as a portion] by lot” (BDAG 548 s.v. κληρόω 1). The words “God's own” have been supplied in the translation to clarify this sense of the verb. An alternative interpretation is that believers receive a portion as an inheritance: “In Christ we too have been appointed a portion of the inheritance.” See H. W. Hoehner, Ephesians, 226-27, for discussion on this interpretive issue.

sn God's own possession. Although God is not mentioned explicitly in the Greek text, it is clear from the context that he has chosen believers for himself. Just as with the nation Israel, the church is God's chosen portion or possession (cf. Deut 32:8-9).

—NET Bible Notes - First Edition

 

12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope[30] on Christ,[31] would be to the praise of his glory. 13 And when[32] you heard the word of truth (the gospel of your salvation) — when you believed in Christ[33] — you were marked with the seal[34] of the promised Holy Spirit,[35] 14 who is the down payment[36] of our inheritance, until the redemption of God’s own possession,[37] to the praise of his glory.

Eph 1:12-14 (NET1)

Verse 12

30 tn Or “who had already hoped.”

31 tn Or “the Messiah.”

Verse 13

32 tn Grk “in whom you also, when...” (continuing the sentence from v. 12).

33 tn Grk “in whom also having believed.” The relative pronoun “whom” has been replaced in the translation with its antecedent (“Christ”) to improve the clarity.

34 tn Or “you were sealed.”

35 tn Grk “the Holy Spirit of promise.” Here ἐπαγγελίας (epangelias, “of promise”) has been translated as an attributive genitive.

Verse 14

36 tn Or “first installment,” “pledge,” “deposit.”

sn Down payment. The Greek word ἀρραβών (arrabōn) denotes the first payment or first installment of money or goods which serves as a guarantee or pledge for the completion of the transaction. In the NT the term is used only figuratively of the Holy Spirit as the down payment of the blessings promised by God (it is used also in 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5). In the “already - not yet” scheme of the NT the possession of the Spirit now by believers (“already”) can be viewed as a guarantee that God will give them the balance of the promised blessings in the future (“not yet”).

37 tn Grk “the possession.”

Verse 15

38 sn The conjunctive phrase For this reason points back to the preceding section, vv. 3-14, which is also summed up in this verse in the expression because I have heard of your faith. In other words, the author's prayer can be made for his audience because he knows that they are true believers

—NET Bible Notes - First Edition

 

 

God bless,

Tony

 

Hi Tony,

 

Just because they speak of the Phoenix doesn't mean they believed in it. Paul quoted the Greek poets to, that doesn't mean he was saying everything they wrote was true. Additionally, when I look at the early writers I look at the Ante-Nicene period. I've found that the writers of this period are generally uniform.

 

No, Paul did not suddenly become a Gentile. What he's doing is showing that the Gentiles have been included in the promises to Israel, "after" they believed. The statement "we too" isn't in the Greek text. It read "in who also".

 

Regarding the when, the fullness of the times there is no issue here. Paul explains what God has done for Israel with the purpose towards reconciling all thing is in Christ at the fullness of time.

 

Notice in the notes you posted it says, "appoint a portion by lot". This is a reference to the land Israel inherited, it was appointed to then by lot. I think one reason many Christians miss the significance of this is the Heavenly destiny doctrine. Many Christians don't realize that it is the earth that is going to be the final abode of the Christian and that the land promised to Abraham is the Christian hope. I've just briefly addressed this in another post here.

 

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

Let’s break it down to even smaller pieces.

 

Ok, so what I see you saying is that Paul and the jews of the flesh who believed have already received their inheritance which is the promised land which Joshua led them into and we share in that inheritance later.

 

But in reality they personally have not received the promised land and if that’s what it is talking about they will actually receive that later?

 

 

Inherit can be many things

 

Mt 5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Mt 19:29  And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mt 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mr 10:17  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Lu 10:25  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Lu 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Ga 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:12  That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

1Pe 3:9  Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

 

Re 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

 

 

 

But we have gotten off track.

 

I had already said that verse 11 and 12 are talking about Israel of the flesh who have believed.

 

11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

 

Verse 11 refers back to verse 10.

 

10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

 

That is the reason for we also or also we

 

Young’s literal translation,

 

Eph 1:11  in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

 

 

 

 

So you have not given me any compelling evidence that changes the fact that verses 3 through 10 are not about Israel of the flesh who believed, but is about all believers as I have been showing you through many sources.

 

God bless,

Tony

 

 

 

 

[Butch5]

asper, on 19 Sept 2013 - 4:03 PM, said:

Hi butch,

Let’s break it down to even smaller pieces.

Ok, so what I see you saying is that Paul and the jews of the flesh who believed have already received their inheritance which is the promised land which Joshua led them into and we share in that inheritance later.

But in reality they personally have not received the promised land and if that’s what it is talking about they will actually receive that later?

Inherit can be many things

Mt 5:5  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Mt 19:29  And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Mt 25:34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mr 10:17  And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

Lu 10:25  And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Lu 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

1Co 6:9  Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Co 6:10  Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1Co 15:50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Ga 5:21  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Heb 6:12  That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

1Pe 3:9  Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

Re 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

But we have gotten off track.

I had already said that verse 11 and 12 are talking about Israel of the flesh who have believed.

11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Verse 11 refers back to verse 10.

10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

That is the reason for we also or also we

Young’s literal translation,

Eph 1:11  in whom also we did obtain an inheritance, being foreordained according to the purpose of Him who the all things is working according to the counsel of His will,

So you have not given me any compelling evidence that changes the fact that verses 3 through 10 are not about Israel of the flesh who believed, but is about all believers as I have been showing you through many sources.

God bless,

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

Let me clarify a point. I'm not saying verse 3-12 are only about fleshly Jews who believed. I'm saying it is about all of the Jews who were under the Mosaic covenant. God has done all of those things in verses 3-12 for the Jews who were under the Mosaic covenant. They received an inheritance in the land. Remember the Greek word translated inheritance means an allotment. God told the Jews that the land was His. However, He gave the 12 tribes an allotment in the land. Their possession of the land was conditional on their keeping the Law. God said if they kept it they could stay, in they didn't He was going to drive them out of the land. That's the inheritance that Paul is referring to in verse 11. In verse 14 Paul speaks of "our" inheritance (allotment) and includes himself with the Gentiles. Here he is speaking of believers who have a future inheritance (allotment) in the land. God promised the Promised Land to Abraham as an everlasting possession. In Acts 7 Stephen said that Abraham didn't receive any of that land. If God is going to keep His promise to Abraham it has to be in the resurrection when everything is restored. In Galatians 3 Paul makes the argument that the inheritance (allotment) was made to Abraham by a promise and was not through the Law.

 

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

⁶ Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

⁷ Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

⁸ And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

⁹ So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

¹⁰ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

¹¹ But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

¹² And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

¹³ Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

¹⁴ That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

¹⁵ Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

¹⁶ Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

¹⁷ And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

¹⁸ For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

¹⁹ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

²⁰ Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

²¹ Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

²² But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

²³ But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

²⁴ Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

²⁵ But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

²⁶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

²⁷ For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

²⁸ There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

²⁹ And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(Gal 3:5-29 KJV)

 

Paul uses the phrase “the blessing of Abraham” and says that it might come on the Gentiles through faith in Christ. The phrase “the blessing of Abraham” only appears one other time in Scripture and it’s talking about inheriting the land promised to Abraham.

 

^KJV  Genesis 28:1 And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.

 ² Arise, go to Padanaram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.

 ³ And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

 ⁴And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham. (Gen 28:1-4 KJV)

 

He makes the argument that the Law which came 430 years after the promise was made to Abraham cannot overturn the promise. Therefore the permanent inheritance (allotment) of the land comes through faith in Christ and not through the Law. He goes on to say that those who have been baptized into Christ are Abraham’s seed and heir according to the promise. The promise is the eternal land inheritance. The Gentiles after they believed became heirs along with Abraham of the promised land.

 

If you’re interested in a more detailed explanation of this subject I have written a paper on it and would be happy to send you a link. The paper goes into much more detail and give a lot of supporting Scripture.

 

 

Regarding the passages you posted, if you look at them the inheritance is the same in each of them. Some say the Kingdom of God and some say eternal life but the two are synonymous. If one enters the kingdom they have eternal life and if one has eternal life they are in the kingdom. The inheritance in the Scriptures is the Promised Land.

 

Regarding verses 3-10, the pronouns are the same from verse 3 through verse 12. I don’t see how anyone can make a distinction between verses 3-10 and 11 and 12. There is no change in the pronouns until verse 13.  

Edited September 19, 2013 by Butch5

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

Whenever you are including yourself into different groups, you would use the same pronouns for yourself and each group. That doesn’t mean that they are the same group.

 

Also,

Ro 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

 

Hopefully you can see what I am saying.

 

Go ahead and send me a link because we cannot see each others points. Perhaps that will help me understand what you are trying to say and in turn help me to improve my presentation so I can better explain what I am saying to you.

 

God bless,

Tony

[Butch5]

Hi butch,

 

Whenever you are including yourself into different groups, you would use the same pronouns for yourself and each group. That doesn’t mean that they are the same group.

 

Also,

Ro 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

 

Hopefully you can see what I am saying.

 

Go ahead and send me a link because we cannot see each others points. Perhaps that will help me understand what you are trying to say and in turn help me to improve my presentation so I can better explain what I am saying to you.

 

God bless,

Tony

Hi Tony,

 

Paul does use "our" after He includes the Gentiles. Regarding Romans 9 that you've posted here, am I correct in thinking that you believe this is referring to Gentiles? If so I'll have to disagree. He says they are not all Israel that are of Israel. He's eliminating some of the fleshly Jews from the promises. I believe the second reference to Israel is Jacob. In other words they are not all Israel that are of Jacob. Not all of Jacobs offspring are the children of promise, but in Isaac your seed will be called.

 

I'll have to send you the link in a pm. The last link I posted got removed this one probably will too if post it.

[asper]

hi butch,

 

i got the link.

 

as far as the your last comment that wasn't all of what i was talking about, but i will respond after i have time to look at that link,

 

God bless,

Tony

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

I checked out your link and your group’s website. Some is good, some I cannot agree with.

 

The main thing that I see in your group is a works based salvation by trying to keep oneself.

And of course taking the Armenian view on receiving Christ is interesting.

What about those who never heard?

 

1Jo 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

I now understand why you could not see what I, the grammarians, commentary writers have said in previous posts, it would of caused your house of cards to fall down.

 

Ac 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

God bless,

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

[Butch5]

Hi butch,

 

I checked out your link and your group’s website. Some is good, some I cannot agree with.

 

The main thing that I see in your group is a works based salvation by trying to keep oneself.

And of course taking the Armenian view on receiving Christ is interesting.

What about those who never heard?

 

1Jo 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

I now understand why you could not see what I, the grammarians, commentary writers have said in previous posts, it would of caused your house of cards to fall down.

 

Ac 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

God bless,

Tony

House of cards? Everything I said was sound. I'm not sure why you posted 1 John 2:19, we weren't discussing Gnosticism. Regarding Acts 13:48, are implying the Calvinist understanding of that passage? If so I'll have to disagree with you on that. Why do suppose that the English translations since the time of the Reformers have changed the word order of that passage? The Greek text says,' and believed, as many as, were ordained to eternal life.

 

 Ἀκούοντα δὲ τὰ ἔθνη ἔχαιρον καὶ ἐδόξαζον τὸν λόγον τοῦ κυρίου καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον· (Act 13:48 BGT)

 

I've bolded the word for believe and underlined the word for appointed.

 

I've asked quite a few who are versed in the Greek language if there is a reason to change the order of the text. No one has given a reason for changing it. When we take into account that the earliest English translations have believe before appointed and that the change only showed up with the reformation, it seems fairly clear to me that this change was done to support Reformation doctrine.

 

Here is Tyndale 1534

 

TNT Acts 13:48 The getyls hearde and were glad and glorified the worde of the Lorde and beleved: even as many as were ordeyned vnto eternall lyfe. (Act 13:48 TNT)

 

 

The same thing was done in 1 Peter. The word "elect" was moved from verse 1 to verse 2 which again seems to have been done so to support Reformation doctrine.

 

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, ² Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1Pe 1:1 KJG)

 

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

² according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1Pe 1:1-2 YLT)

 

Notice that the KJV has the word "eklektois" is in the beginning of verse in Young's Literal translation which follows the Greek text it is verse one and speaks of the choice (elect) sojourners. The KJV says elect according to the foreknowledge of God. That is not what the Greek text says. So here again it appears the word order was changed in favor of a Reformation doctrine.

 

However, there is an even larger problem with the Calvinist interpretation of that verse. In verse 46 just two verses earlier Paul said that the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. So, the Jews in verse 46 made the determination that they were unworthy, it was their choice.  To argue that the Gentiles were ordained and had no choice leaves one with one of two option, one  the two passages contradict each other or there are different methods of salvation where some people get to choice and others get appointed without any input. Either way I don't think a case can be made for either,

 

 

[Guest]

problem with the Calvinist interpretation

 

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As I See It

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. Joel 2:32

 

The Root Problem Here Is Yeshua (Jesus)

What shall I render unto the LORD for all his benefits toward me? I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. Psalms 116:12-13

 

Is The Only Name Of Salvation

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

 

And John Calvin

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; John 3:23

 

Is Just Like

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23

 

The Rest

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

 

Of Us

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 3:16

 

You See

Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall. My soul hath them still in remembrance, and is humbled in me. This I recall to my mind, therefore have I hope.

 

It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness. Lamentations 3:19-23

 

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Be Blessed Beloved

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

 

Love, Joe

[asper]

Hi butch,

 

Still says the same thing, the principal is the same for Gnostic or any other heresy. Those who belong to Christ will not leave.

 

KJV

 

1Jo 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

MKJV

 

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

 

NET BIBLE

 

19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us, because if they had belonged to us, they would have remained[53] with us. But[54] they went out from us[55] to demonstrate[56] that all of them do not belong to us.[57]

1 John 2:19 (NET1)

53 tn See note on the translation of the Greek verb μένω (menō) in 2:6. Here μένω has been translated as “remained” since it is clear that a change of status or position is involved. The opponents departed from the author's congregation(s) and showed by this departure that they never really belonged. Had they really belonged, they would have stayed (“remained”).

—NET Bible Notes - First Edition

 

 

Also word order or not it still says the same thing.

 

TNTActs 13:48 The getyls hearde and were glad and glorified the worde of the Lorde and beleved: even as many as were ordeyned vnto eternall lyfe. (Act 13:48 TNT)

 

KJV

 

Ac 13:48  And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

MKJV

 

48 And hearing, the nations rejoiced and glorified the Word of the Lord. And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

 

NET BIBLE

 

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began to rejoice[181] and praise[182] the word of the Lord, and all who had been appointed for eternal life[183] believed

Acts 13:48 (NET1)

 

Your mistake is to think that I don’t believe in free will. The Bible teaches both even if we haven’t figured out how they work together: at least I don’t deny any part of the Bible so my own feelings can be satisfied.

 

The Bible is for true Christians. We don’t need someone who thinks they are educated to change the natural understanding of words in favor of their understanding.

This is what watchtower society tries to do. At least they were smart enough to make their own Bible so they could eliminate questions from their followers and the unlearned.

 

I believe that anyone who thinks that they can do a better job at translating the Scriptures then what we have now should do it.

 

 

God bless,

Tony