Does atheism make sense?

[alphaparticle]

As many of you know, I have spent most of my time, as soon as I was old enough to have an opinion, as an atheist. I figured it was the position that assumed the least and best tracked with 'hard evidence'. However, aside from having reasons to think that Christianity is true I also doubt that atheism is the default, 'least assuming' position.

 

Here are some of the questions rattling around in my head with regards to this. Does it really make sense to claim that physical stuff just exists for no reason whatsoever? and, not only does physical stuff just happen to exist, with no further explanation, it's *ordered* beyond belief. So now the claim is that all this stuff just exists in an extremely ordered state for no reason whatsoever. Why would anyone look at that and just assume there is no reason for any of it? I don't think that is the most reasonable, rational response to the state of affairs which is our universe. Assuming that there is nothing behind the existence of the universe and its exquisite ordering is itself an assumption that lacks reasoning.

 

Note, my purpose here isn't to provide evidence for God's existing. I'm merely questioning that atheism is a very rational immediate response to anybody who knows anything about how the world works.

[Guest]

That was always one of the things that bugged me as an atheist, the complexity and order and interaction of everything just did not make a lot of sense to me. While I consoled myself with the notion that all of the order was just the result of natural laws, I was not able to convince myself that these laws themselves would just accidently happen. In my own life, if I did not apply effort and intelligence to a problem it seems that things always degraded to a chaotic state, while the universe around me seemed to be forming, maintaining, and running on order.

As basic as it is, the watchmaker argument was hard to ignore.

[alphaparticle]

That was always one of the things that bugged me as an atheist, the complexity and order and interaction of everything just did not make a lot of sense to me. While I consoled myself with the notion that all of the order was just the result of natural laws, I was not able to convince myself that these laws themselves would just accidently happen. In my own life, if I did not apply effort and intelligence to a problem it seems that things always degraded to a chaotic state, while the universe around me seemed to be forming, maintaining, and running on order.

As basic as it is, the watchmaker argument was hard to ignore.

Yeah exactly. The issue I have with the rationality of atheism is the idea that it makes sense to posit that natural laws 'just exist' and everything in the universe 'just obeys them'. How does that make any sense? There are problems with the reasonableness of the position.

[OakWood]

I don't believe that Atheism makes much sense but Agnosticism certainly does. Why should you believe what the Bible says, after all the Muslims also claim that the Qu'ran is the true word? Most religions believe that they are right. What if none of them are right? Does God exist or doesn't he? All these are reasonable questions to ask. In fact to ask them is to exercise the freedom of thought and powers of reasoning that God gave us.

I believe that many Agnostics are Christians that haven't become Christians yet. As for Atheists, well, I'm not so sure.

 

It was my own Agnostic questioning that led me to God. If I hadn't studied Islam and seen all the lies in it, then I may not have been drawn to the Bible and found the truth. Now of course, I believe through faith, but until I had satisfied the questions that I needed to answer, I wasn't able to find God. Maybe God wanted me to do it that way. I don't know. Maybe he didn't.

I have never given a testimony on this site, but in a nutshell, it was the history of the Jews that led me to believe that there was one true God and that the truth of God was to be found in the Holy Bible. The Jews led me to God. History led me to God. Current affairs led me to God.

Even doubting Thomas's can find God, they just need to poke their fingers into a few ribs before they do so!

[Guest]

I believe that many Agnostics are Christians that haven't become Christians yet. As for Atheists, well, I'm not so sure.

 

It was my own Agnostic questioning that led me to God.

 

Well, I was an agnostic before I was a Christian, but I was never comfortable to be an agnostic, maybe it was pride. After all, to be honest, another word for agnostic, is ignoramus, lol. An agnostic basically, is someone who admits to being ignorant (not knowing). I was an agnostic for maybe 7 years, if I were honest. Mostly I was an atheist, who wanted desperately to to rationalize my atheism.

 

For 10 years, I actively worked to prove that atheism was the most rational way to believe. The more I studied and investigated the facts behind the tenets of my atheism, the more I discovered the flaws in my logic and assumptions, and the more I discovered what seemed to be suppression of evidence (or selective use of evidence) in bolstering atheism. The more I tried to hold on to my atheism, the less convinced I was, until finally I had to admit to myself, that not only did I not have all the answers, but I could not any longer convince myself that atheism was the most rational belief system. That is when I became aware that I was really agnostic.

 

Agnosticism did not sit well with me. I understood that I was now ignorant, in the most important area of knowledge there can be. If there was a God, and if He required something of me, that I was ignoring, then my eternal destiny, could well hang in the balance. Besides, I just hated knowing that I was ignorant.

 

To the partial post I quoted above, not all agnostics are or become believers of any sort, let alone become Christians, and athiests certainly can - often passing through agnosticism first. One thing that strikes me as a bit dangerous, is the focus we Christians sometime put, on the importance of saving people from the atheism, and converting them to theism. Satan himself, is a theist.

[Faithful]

I'm not scientifically or apologetically or theologically inclined, but just as a human...lol...I like the story of Abraham because it demonstrates to me that Abraham didn't really know God that well in the beginning. He just decided that the probability was high enough he should take the risk and follow the voice he heard. He certainly showed his lack of faith in the beginning of his journey when he lied about his wife being his sister but in the end he was willing to sacrifice his long awaited son though God stopped him. Since Abraham is considered the Father of our Faith, I find this very encouraging. I think it really does boil down to probability that people decide at some point that what they know even if they aren't sure 100%, has finally tipped the scale from less doubt to more belief that they decide to give it a shot.

Another point on a personal note, I think one thing that convinces me is that if I were to say okay what kind of God would be the ideal God, the God of the Bible fits. You want a God who is just but you want a God who is merciful and loving but doesn't just dismiss wrong doing but makes a way to reconcile in a way that doesn't impede justice. If that makes any sense the way I am saying it here. After reading the Bible for a couple of years now, it becomes clearer and clearer to me that I made the right choice. I love the analogy of how they send rockets off into space. They say if their calculations are off to any minute degree, then the rocket is way off it's target in space. I tend to think the same applies to God and His ways. If our God is not perfect which denotes exact, then I don't see how He can be God. The more I read God's word the more I see how perfect His way of thinking is. I believe God knows just how destructive sin is. If you take a real unbiased look at what God's calls sin you see how sin is destructive and the problems it causes. All sin is in essence a failure to love but also to realize that we are in no position to rule our lives as we are no where near perfect and able to do so. What the Bible calls sin and how the Bible speaks of what love is, to me is the deciding factor between religions. Having children really helped me relate to the God of the Bible and I believe God set it up that way so we could relate to Him.

Also the unselfishness of Christ when you think about it. He could have said, hey, your sinning just makes me look better but instead He was willing to die for us and believed in the love the Father had for Him but also the story of Jesus shows that the Father loved us enough to send Christ....I think we all know in the core of our being that truth is totally tied to selflessness and loving others....however, you will hear a lot more about loving your neighbor than God....

Just some of my thoughts I thought I'd share....

I've watch a show some time ago where Barbara Walters interviewed some of the leaders of the major religions of the world and I tell ya, I am not envious in the least to come back as a cow or insect or to know that to some Hitler is going to heaven as all people go to heaven regardless. I realize it is not what we wish is true but truth is truth independent of us.

[alphaparticle]

I don't believe that Atheism makes much sense but Agnosticism certainly does. Why should you believe what the Bible says, after all the Muslims also claim that the Qu'ran is the true word? Most religions believe that they are right. What if none of them are right? Does God exist or doesn't he? All these are reasonable questions to ask. In fact to ask them is to exercise the freedom of thought and powers of reasoning that God gave us.

I believe that many Agnostics are Christians that haven't become Christians yet. As for Atheists, well, I'm not so sure.

 

It was my own Agnostic questioning that led me to God. If I hadn't studied Islam and seen all the lies in it, then I may not have been drawn to the Bible and found the truth. Now of course, I believe through faith, but until I had satisfied the questions that I needed to answer, I wasn't able to find God. Maybe God wanted me to do it that way. I don't know. Maybe he didn't.

I have never given a testimony on this site, but in a nutshell, it was the history of the Jews that led me to believe that there was one true God and that the truth of God was to be found in the Holy Bible. The Jews led me to God. History led me to God. Current affairs led me to God.

Even doubting Thomas's can find God, they just need to poke their fingers into a few ribs before they do so!

I don't know about that actually. Some agnostics are more dogmatic about being skeptical types than they are about finding the truth. If you have someone who has an extremely  high threshold for evidence before they will accept some statement as true, and that is why they are agnostic, that person may be less open to accepting God's existence than an atheist at the end of the day.

[lemonvariable73]

 

I believe that many Agnostics are Christians that haven't become Christians yet. As for Atheists, well, I'm not so sure.

 

It was my own Agnostic questioning that led me to God.

 

Well, I was an agnostic before I was a Christian, but I was never comfortable to be an agnostic, maybe it was pride. After all, to be honest, another word for agnostic, is ignoramus, lol. An agnostic basically, is someone who admits to being ignorant (not knowing). I was an agnostic for maybe 7 years, if I were honest. Mostly I was an atheist, who wanted desperately to to rationalize my atheism.

 

For 10 years, I actively worked to prove that atheism was the most rational way to believe. The more I studied and investigated the facts behind the tenets of my atheism, the more I discovered the flaws in my logic and assumptions, and the more I discovered what seemed to be suppression of evidence (or selective use of evidence) in bolstering atheism. The more I tried to hold on to my atheism, the less convinced I was, until finally I had to admit to myself, that not only did I not have all the answers, but I could not any longer convince myself that atheism was the most rational belief system. That is when I became aware that I was really agnostic.

 

Agnosticism did not sit well with me. I understood that I was now ignorant, in the most important area of knowledge there can be. If there was a God, and if He required something of me, that I was ignoring, then my eternal destiny, could well hang in the balance. Besides, I just hated knowing that I was ignorant.

 

To the partial post I quoted above, not all agnostics are or become believers of any sort, let alone become Christians, and athiests certainly can - often passing through agnosticism first. One thing that strikes me as a bit dangerous, is the focus we Christians sometime put, on the importance of saving people from the atheism, and converting them to theism. Satan himself, is a theist.

 

What tenets do you refer to?

[kwikphilly]

Hi Alpha,

     Such sincerity in what you have shared....it is such a blessing to know how far God has taken you and your thirst and willingness to seek the deeper things!!!!God bless you ,Alpha.

     Just a quick little comment,for me personally....atheists  seem to be the most irrational folks I ever had the pleasure of engaging in conversation with.......they just never seem to have done enough research to justify "why"they choose not to believe in a Supreme Being,Creator God......and they say we Christians are the odd bunch?Anyway.even the most renowned scholars who have once claimed to be atheists seem to end up changing their claim to agnosticism....and I can respect that......

    Well,I have nothing to  add except the hopes that they too will one day be enlightened....lets just keep the unbeliever lifted up in prayer....................In Christ

                                                                                                                 With love,Kwik

Oh Mega,

      That is a beautiful,honest testimony....I do hope it is well received......I too tried desperately to refute the Word of God....Could not do it......glory to God!!!!!

Edited September 4, 2013 by kwikphilly

[alphaparticle]

Hi Alpha,

     Such sincerity in what you have shared....it is such a blessing to know how far God has taken you and your thirst and willingness to seek the deeper things!!!!God bless you ,Alpha.

     Just a quick little comment,for me personally....atheists  seem to be the most irrational folks I ever had the pleasure of engaging in conversation with.......they just never seem to have done enough research to justify "why"they choose not to believe in a Supreme Being,Creator God......and they say we Christians are the odd bunch?Anyway.even the most renowned scholars who have once claimed to be atheists seem to end up changing their claim to agnosticism....and I can respect that......

    Well,I have nothing to  add except the hopes that they too will one day be enlightened....lets just keep the unbeliever lifted up in prayer....................In Christ

                                                                                                                 With love,Kwik

Oh Mega,

      That is a beautiful,honest testimony....I do hope it is well received......I too tried desperately to refute the Word of God....Could not do it......glory to God!!!!!

Thanks kwik. I do think a lot of atheists aren't that reflective about their atheism but are lazy about it  because they think being an atheist gives them intellectual high ground based on that alone. It's that unreflective sort of atheism I wanted to question in my OP.