Mid-tribulation rapture: why i believe so.

[EnochBethany]

If many of the saints/apostles back in the first century were hated/suffered/persecuted for preaching the gospel...Why would there be a pre-trib rapture?

Greetings, what is the logical connection? Pre-Trib means that the Church escapes God's wrath, not persecution at the hands of humans.

[EnochBethany]

The Antichrist doesn't gain full power until after the rapture which I believe takes place in the Mid of the tribulation week. Then, the holy Spirit is taken away along with the prepared ones and then the Man of Sin gains full control and dominion.

What leads you to think the Rapture is Mid-Trib?  What is your degree of certainty on a scale of 0-10,

0 being totally uncertain, 1 being "best guess," 10 meaning as certain as I am that I exist.

[EnochBethany]

 

Hi Spock! Since you mentioned some kind of treaty, could I share something I saw on FB? (I know! I don't put a lot into these things either, but your comment made me think of this)

It's "38 Reasons the Bible is True and We Are in The End Times" on raptureforums.com (Is that allowed? for me to put the name of another forum here? If not I will remove it)

I guess it is mentioned in there about a treaty to be signed by April 29, 2014 between Israel & Palestinians.

Is there anything to this, or is it the usual FB garbage.....?

Thanks. Things have been slow here on prophecy, so I think I will check out this site to see what is going down there. I hope it is not a pre trib rapture site because they seem to be abundant and quite frankly, I don't see it anymore, but I will still mosey on over to check it out.

 

Well, you Vulcan with Green Blood!

 

Have you heard of

 

THE MID-TRIBBLE RAPTURE?

 

That happens when the Enterprise is in the process of beaming all the tribbles aboard a Klingon Bird of Prey star ship.  The transport beam goes awry and pulls up a bunch of people off the earth!

[EnochBethany]

Verily thou hast posted:

 

""whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES""

 

Excellent point!

[ENOCH2010]

Hi Rollin.

 

I don't know how to organize my response like yours - multiple quotes.  But, I'll try to hit each question.

 

ONE:

1 Th 2:7

 

{{Hmmm  I'm pretty sure I was posting Scriptures yesterday, from my job (was saying "allow access") ... but now my copy and paste isn't pasting.  Sorry, but you're gonna have to look it up manually on your end.}}

 

I think a more merited question is ... why would He stay?  If the Church is raptured, and all dead saints from Abel to the last convert, why would the Comforter, who came FOR the Church, stay on earth when the Church is removed?

 

Then of course there is the "hear what Spirit says to the Churches" prior to the Tribulation, but then both Spirit and Church are removed while Tribulation is going on in the earth ... only leaving "He who has an ear, let them hear."

 

 

TWO

I think there is a misconception about the letters.  Yes, they were letters to those specific 7 Churches, but they are not meant for them solely.  They are meant for ALL Christians of ALL generations.  Whomever the cap fits - wear it.  How do we know?  Because of "whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES"  Neither letter was ever meant to be specific to that group or generation alone.  The Comforter is not confined to a singular person or a singular group.  They are long dead and He still says the same thing. We are ALL under the same dispensation, so, those letters apply to Christians in 2014 as well.

 

 

THREE

I don't recall suggesting that I believed the VISION was on earth.  And sun and moon and stars all represent things.  Israel?  Church?  There are commentaries that give their suggestions.  The 1/3 of stars are clearly fallen angels.

 

 

FOUR

I do not believe that the war in Heaven is symbolic.  I believe exactly what the Word says - that there was WAR IN HEAVEN, and both sides FOUGHT and finally Satan is permanently cast down, and because of such, there is great rejoicing IN HEAVEN at him being permanently cast out.  I do not believe any of that is symbolic, but an actual event.  John called the first two things "WONDERS", which, yes, were symbolic of something.  But the WAR IN HEAVEN, he did NOT call a "wonder".  He saw an actual battle. Interesting how this 12th chapter of Revelation fits in with the 12th chapter of Daniel, which also says that "Michael will stand up".  Why would Michael stand?  To do battle.

 

 

FIVE

I prepare my heart for the BIRTHPAINS.  Knowing things will get worst and worst leading UP TO that day.  But that is as far as it goes.  Concerning Jesus, they Disciples asked Him a TWO-FOLD question.  They asked what the signs of the end AND His second coming.  Jesus is answering both.  There is the Rapture, and then there is the Second Coming.  The Second Coming is not for the Christians.  So, what you are talking about is Jesus now dealing specifically with the JEWS, not the rest of the world. 

 

Jesus answered broadly, and He wrapped up the first part of the question and said, "And THEN THE END WILL COME."

 

But observe how He continued to go on talking about events?  He answered, broadly, concerning the Rapture, now He begins to answer the second part of the question, which concerns His Second Coming.  And since the Church is nowhere around, He is focused on the Jews.  You even typed it yourself: those in JUDEA.  Not, all ya'll all over the planet.  Jesus is dealing specifically with the Jews in this part.

 

 

SIX

I'm sorry, but I do feel sorry for those who doubt the delivering power of God.

 

How can God spare the home of a saved woman and unsaved man when the 100 pound boulders fall?

 

How can He spare the saint from bread that costs a days wage (what do you think gas or utilities or mortgage will cost?)?

 

Where is it written that any saint is sealed for protection?  The 144,000 are JEWISH MALES, probably babies or infants.  Only they are sealed and preserved.  144K is less than 0.01% of the words Jewish population (talk about a 'remnant').  Why are they a focus at that time?  Because the Church is gone.  All Satan has left to persecute is the Jews who rejected the Messiah.

 

Even Jesus promised, "You will NEVER see Me again UNTIL you learn to say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'"  Yes, Jews will finally say this when they face entire annihilation ... on the plains of Meggido.  THAT is when they turn.  Even Judaism teaches that is when the Messiah comes - when Jews collectively call on Him, or collectively convert.

 

And how in the world can you "prepare" for what is going to be GLOBAL?  If the sea rises, and if islands are moved from their places, and the coastlines shrink, and if you CANNOT buy or sell without the mark ... how can you even rent a cab or buy transportation to get away, or clothes, or medication, not to mention the slow, gruelsome starvation that will immediately follow?  Not only it is, in my opinion, unbilical and uncharacteristic of God, but is it illogical to think that you can "prepare" for the worst time that is to come upon the earth.

 

But no.  He raptured Noah, He will do so again.

 

He promised that He would not send destruction for the SAKE of His own people.

 

He has NOT appointed us unto wrath OR fear ... and your post-trib glorified both.  I do not fear what you do.  I know whose report I believe.

 

What sort of "blessed hope" can you possibly have if you are to endure?  How is enduring a "blessed HOPE"?  It's more like a blessed hopelessness.

 

What's worst, Revelation clearly, clearly shows that there is an uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  It is so very clear that these are the righteous souls of mankind.  They have palm trees (and they also represent celebration and completeness), and they are celebrating the Salvation.  Worthy to escape.  The second death (Hell) holds no threat over them.  They are clearly, clearly seen IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  So ... how'd they get there if the rapture is post-trib?

 

... so yes I feel sorry, because post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief.

Which resurrection is it that happens with the pre-trib rapture and where can one read about it ?

[OakWood]

Hi Rollin.

 

I don't know how to organize my response like yours - multiple quotes.  But, I'll try to hit each question.

 

ONE:

1 Th 2:7

 

{{Hmmm  I'm pretty sure I was posting Scriptures yesterday, from my job (was saying "allow access") ... but now my copy and paste isn't pasting.  Sorry, but you're gonna have to look it up manually on your end.}}

 

I think a more merited question is ... why would He stay?  If the Church is raptured, and all dead saints from Abel to the last convert, why would the Comforter, who came FOR the Church, stay on earth when the Church is removed?

 

Then of course there is the "hear what Spirit says to the Churches" prior to the Tribulation, but then both Spirit and Church are removed while Tribulation is going on in the earth ... only leaving "He who has an ear, let them hear."

 

 

TWO

I think there is a misconception about the letters.  Yes, they were letters to those specific 7 Churches, but they are not meant for them solely.  They are meant for ALL Christians of ALL generations.  Whomever the cap fits - wear it.  How do we know?  Because of "whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES"  Neither letter was ever meant to be specific to that group or generation alone.  The Comforter is not confined to a singular person or a singular group.  They are long dead and He still says the same thing. We are ALL under the same dispensation, so, those letters apply to Christians in 2014 as well.

 

 

THREE

I don't recall suggesting that I believed the VISION was on earth.  And sun and moon and stars all represent things.  Israel?  Church?  There are commentaries that give their suggestions.  The 1/3 of stars are clearly fallen angels.

 

 

FOUR

I do not believe that the war in Heaven is symbolic.  I believe exactly what the Word says - that there was WAR IN HEAVEN, and both sides FOUGHT and finally Satan is permanently cast down, and because of such, there is great rejoicing IN HEAVEN at him being permanently cast out.  I do not believe any of that is symbolic, but an actual event.  John called the first two things "WONDERS", which, yes, were symbolic of something.  But the WAR IN HEAVEN, he did NOT call a "wonder".  He saw an actual battle. Interesting how this 12th chapter of Revelation fits in with the 12th chapter of Daniel, which also says that "Michael will stand up".  Why would Michael stand?  To do battle.

 

 

FIVE

I prepare my heart for the BIRTHPAINS.  Knowing things will get worst and worst leading UP TO that day.  But that is as far as it goes.  Concerning Jesus, they Disciples asked Him a TWO-FOLD question.  They asked what the signs of the end AND His second coming.  Jesus is answering both.  There is the Rapture, and then there is the Second Coming.  The Second Coming is not for the Christians.  So, what you are talking about is Jesus now dealing specifically with the JEWS, not the rest of the world. 

 

Jesus answered broadly, and He wrapped up the first part of the question and said, "And THEN THE END WILL COME."

 

But observe how He continued to go on talking about events?  He answered, broadly, concerning the Rapture, now He begins to answer the second part of the question, which concerns His Second Coming.  And since the Church is nowhere around, He is focused on the Jews.  You even typed it yourself: those in JUDEA.  Not, all ya'll all over the planet.  Jesus is dealing specifically with the Jews in this part.

 

 

SIX

I'm sorry, but I do feel sorry for those who doubt the delivering power of God.

 

How can God spare the home of a saved woman and unsaved man when the 100 pound boulders fall?

 

How can He spare the saint from bread that costs a days wage (what do you think gas or utilities or mortgage will cost?)?

 

Where is it written that any saint is sealed for protection?  The 144,000 are JEWISH MALES, probably babies or infants.  Only they are sealed and preserved.  144K is less than 0.01% of the words Jewish population (talk about a 'remnant').  Why are they a focus at that time?  Because the Church is gone.  All Satan has left to persecute is the Jews who rejected the Messiah.

 

Even Jesus promised, "You will NEVER see Me again UNTIL you learn to say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'"  Yes, Jews will finally say this when they face entire annihilation ... on the plains of Meggido.  THAT is when they turn.  Even Judaism teaches that is when the Messiah comes - when Jews collectively call on Him, or collectively convert.

 

And how in the world can you "prepare" for what is going to be GLOBAL?  If the sea rises, and if islands are moved from their places, and the coastlines shrink, and if you CANNOT buy or sell without the mark ... how can you even rent a cab or buy transportation to get away, or clothes, or medication, not to mention the slow, gruelsome starvation that will immediately follow?  Not only it is, in my opinion, unbilical and uncharacteristic of God, but is it illogical to think that you can "prepare" for the worst time that is to come upon the earth.

 

But no.  He raptured Noah, He will do so again.

 

He promised that He would not send destruction for the SAKE of His own people.

 

He has NOT appointed us unto wrath OR fear ... and your post-trib glorified both.  I do not fear what you do.  I know whose report I believe.

 

What sort of "blessed hope" can you possibly have if you are to endure?  How is enduring a "blessed HOPE"?  It's more like a blessed hopelessness.

 

What's worst, Revelation clearly, clearly shows that there is an uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  It is so very clear that these are the righteous souls of mankind.  They have palm trees (and they also represent celebration and completeness), and they are celebrating the Salvation.  Worthy to escape.  The second death (Hell) holds no threat over them.  They are clearly, clearly seen IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  So ... how'd they get there if the rapture is post-trib?

 

... so yes I feel sorry, because post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief.

 

So basically, what you are saying is that the post-tribbers have been fooled by demons and do not know the character of God? There are plenty of them on here. Perhaps you should address this to them!

[Montana Marv]

Enoch 2010

 

Your quote from above:   Which resurrection is it that happens with the pre-trib rapture and where can one read about it ?

 

This is part of the First Resurrection (the Resurrection of the Just).  The Second Resurrection is for the unjust and the fallen angels.

 

Why not just say the Resurrection for the Just and the Resurrection for the Unjust.  There is no Scripture which says there is only a one time entry into the Resurrection for the Just.  When do the Jewish Remnant of Zech 13:9 become part of the Resurrection for the Just.  Zech 13:2 - On that day, I will banish the names of the idols from the land and they will be remembered no more.  This parallels to Rev 9:20 - the Rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands;  they did not stop worshiping demons and idols.  Do you wish to be considered one of these "the rest of mankind".  The Post Trib Rapture Doctrine seems in include demon and idol worshipers.  Yet some of these idol worshipers are part of the Jewish Remnant which are ushered into the 1000 year reign of Christ.  Some of those who will be ruled with a rod of iron.  Why rule those of the First (Just) Resurrection with a rod of iron, unless they have not yet achieved or have not yet been part of this Resurrection.  Oops, All do not go into the First Resurrection at the same time.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Donibm]

 

Hi Rollin.

 

I don't know how to organize my response like yours - multiple quotes.  But, I'll try to hit each question.

 

ONE:

1 Th 2:7

 

{{Hmmm  I'm pretty sure I was posting Scriptures yesterday, from my job (was saying "allow access") ... but now my copy and paste isn't pasting.  Sorry, but you're gonna have to look it up manually on your end.}}

 

I think a more merited question is ... why would He stay?  If the Church is raptured, and all dead saints from Abel to the last convert, why would the Comforter, who came FOR the Church, stay on earth when the Church is removed?

 

Then of course there is the "hear what Spirit says to the Churches" prior to the Tribulation, but then both Spirit and Church are removed while Tribulation is going on in the earth ... only leaving "He who has an ear, let them hear."

 

 

TWO

I think there is a misconception about the letters.  Yes, they were letters to those specific 7 Churches, but they are not meant for them solely.  They are meant for ALL Christians of ALL generations.  Whomever the cap fits - wear it.  How do we know?  Because of "whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES"  Neither letter was ever meant to be specific to that group or generation alone.  The Comforter is not confined to a singular person or a singular group.  They are long dead and He still says the same thing. We are ALL under the same dispensation, so, those letters apply to Christians in 2014 as well.

 

 

THREE

I don't recall suggesting that I believed the VISION was on earth.  And sun and moon and stars all represent things.  Israel?  Church?  There are commentaries that give their suggestions.  The 1/3 of stars are clearly fallen angels.

 

 

FOUR

I do not believe that the war in Heaven is symbolic.  I believe exactly what the Word says - that there was WAR IN HEAVEN, and both sides FOUGHT and finally Satan is permanently cast down, and because of such, there is great rejoicing IN HEAVEN at him being permanently cast out.  I do not believe any of that is symbolic, but an actual event.  John called the first two things "WONDERS", which, yes, were symbolic of something.  But the WAR IN HEAVEN, he did NOT call a "wonder".  He saw an actual battle. Interesting how this 12th chapter of Revelation fits in with the 12th chapter of Daniel, which also says that "Michael will stand up".  Why would Michael stand?  To do battle.

 

 

FIVE

I prepare my heart for the BIRTHPAINS.  Knowing things will get worst and worst leading UP TO that day.  But that is as far as it goes.  Concerning Jesus, they Disciples asked Him a TWO-FOLD question.  They asked what the signs of the end AND His second coming.  Jesus is answering both.  There is the Rapture, and then there is the Second Coming.  The Second Coming is not for the Christians.  So, what you are talking about is Jesus now dealing specifically with the JEWS, not the rest of the world. 

 

Jesus answered broadly, and He wrapped up the first part of the question and said, "And THEN THE END WILL COME."

 

But observe how He continued to go on talking about events?  He answered, broadly, concerning the Rapture, now He begins to answer the second part of the question, which concerns His Second Coming.  And since the Church is nowhere around, He is focused on the Jews.  You even typed it yourself: those in JUDEA.  Not, all ya'll all over the planet.  Jesus is dealing specifically with the Jews in this part.

 

 

SIX

I'm sorry, but I do feel sorry for those who doubt the delivering power of God.

 

How can God spare the home of a saved woman and unsaved man when the 100 pound boulders fall?

 

How can He spare the saint from bread that costs a days wage (what do you think gas or utilities or mortgage will cost?)?

 

Where is it written that any saint is sealed for protection?  The 144,000 are JEWISH MALES, probably babies or infants.  Only they are sealed and preserved.  144K is less than 0.01% of the words Jewish population (talk about a 'remnant').  Why are they a focus at that time?  Because the Church is gone.  All Satan has left to persecute is the Jews who rejected the Messiah.

 

Even Jesus promised, "You will NEVER see Me again UNTIL you learn to say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'"  Yes, Jews will finally say this when they face entire annihilation ... on the plains of Meggido.  THAT is when they turn.  Even Judaism teaches that is when the Messiah comes - when Jews collectively call on Him, or collectively convert.

 

And how in the world can you "prepare" for what is going to be GLOBAL?  If the sea rises, and if islands are moved from their places, and the coastlines shrink, and if you CANNOT buy or sell without the mark ... how can you even rent a cab or buy transportation to get away, or clothes, or medication, not to mention the slow, gruelsome starvation that will immediately follow?  Not only it is, in my opinion, unbilical and uncharacteristic of God, but is it illogical to think that you can "prepare" for the worst time that is to come upon the earth.

 

But no.  He raptured Noah, He will do so again.

 

He promised that He would not send destruction for the SAKE of His own people.

 

He has NOT appointed us unto wrath OR fear ... and your post-trib glorified both.  I do not fear what you do.  I know whose report I believe.

 

What sort of "blessed hope" can you possibly have if you are to endure?  How is enduring a "blessed HOPE"?  It's more like a blessed hopelessness.

 

What's worst, Revelation clearly, clearly shows that there is an uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  It is so very clear that these are the righteous souls of mankind.  They have palm trees (and they also represent celebration and completeness), and they are celebrating the Salvation.  Worthy to escape.  The second death (Hell) holds no threat over them.  They are clearly, clearly seen IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  So ... how'd they get there if the rapture is post-trib?

 

... so yes I feel sorry, because post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief.

Which resurrection is it that happens with the pre-trib rapture and where can one read about it ?

 

 

Why ask me?  I posted to rollin and my words are very simple.  You own a Bible don't you?

 

You know the story of Noah and the Ark don't you?

 

You read about Abraham saying that God will never punish the righteous with the wicked don't you?  Well, will He or will He not?

 

You read how God Himself said 'for the sake of the righteous, I will not destroy' didn't you?  So, is post-trib lining up with the Word and the Character of God? 

 

You read about how the Israelites were safe on the other side of the Egyptians didn't you?  But now, we are intermingled - believers and unbelievers - so how can the Believer be safe from hail, or floods, or natural disasters?

 

You read how one was TAKEN and the other LEFT didn't you?  Why in the world is one TAKEN at the END of the Tribulation?  To dash up just to immediately come back down?  So, is the Marriage Feast of the Lamb also going to happen in the "twinkling of an eye"?  Is the celebration in Heaven ... nonexistant?  How can they celebrate in Heaven ... if they are still on earth?

 

You read about the uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation was going on in the earth, didn't you?  How'd they get there is the Rapture occurs at the end?

 

You read about the Holy Spirit being taken out of the way BEFORE the Antichrist is revealed didn't you?  So, is the suggestion that the Saints will remain in the absence of the Comforter?  What then will happen tot he Christians left behind?  THREE TIMES Revelation says mankind will not repent.  Did you miss that part?  No man can repent unless CALLED and CONVICTED to repent.  So, obviously, the Spirit is nowhere on earth.  So, is the post-trib suggesting that the Saints left on earth will be without the Comforter ... cause He is gone.

 

You read about the message of Salvation, didn't you?  Is it "Repent.  Turn from sin.  Accept Jesus."? ... or is it "do not take the Mark of the Beast and do not worship the image"?  Explain why the Gospel is no longer relevant ... in fact, "Jesus" Himself is not even a figurative mention?  Why would they be?  That dispensation will end immediately at the time of the Rapture.

 

You read about the blessed hope didn't you? What is so "blessed" in going through the Tribulation period? 

 

You read about Jesus saying to watch and pray that you may be worthy to ESCAPE the things that are to come, right?  What is the difference in the word "escape" when compared to the word "endure"?

 

You know that the Disciples were asking Jesus a two-fold question, right?  It was about the Rapture and the Second Coming.  Jesus answered the first, even said "and then the end will come" (FOR US) ... but then He proceeded to give broad answers for the Second Coming in which He focused on the Jews.  Why such emphasis on the Jews?  Because of Gods promise to Abraham, and because the Church is already gone.  

 

 

 

Give rollin a chance to answer.  he responded to me, and my response was specifically to him.  I know that there are mid and post people in here.  I'm not looking for some sort of "clash of the titan" affair.  I see demonic destruction and inconsistencies in mid and post beliefs (especially post), but I've not dared call THEM "demonic" or "lost".  That's certainly not what I said or suggested.  It is a demonic and destructive lie for people to think Jesus was black because they see "woolly hair" ... and that's not even what the Bible says.  It says His HEAD and His hair are WHITE like wool, and WHITE as snow.  So to me, they are one in the same - misreading.  Wrong context.  Ignoring the Truth. 

[Donibm]

 

Hi Rollin.

 

I don't know how to organize my response like yours - multiple quotes.  But, I'll try to hit each question.

 

ONE:

1 Th 2:7

 

{{Hmmm  I'm pretty sure I was posting Scriptures yesterday, from my job (was saying "allow access") ... but now my copy and paste isn't pasting.  Sorry, but you're gonna have to look it up manually on your end.}}

 

I think a more merited question is ... why would He stay?  If the Church is raptured, and all dead saints from Abel to the last convert, why would the Comforter, who came FOR the Church, stay on earth when the Church is removed?

 

Then of course there is the "hear what Spirit says to the Churches" prior to the Tribulation, but then both Spirit and Church are removed while Tribulation is going on in the earth ... only leaving "He who has an ear, let them hear."

 

 

TWO

I think there is a misconception about the letters.  Yes, they were letters to those specific 7 Churches, but they are not meant for them solely.  They are meant for ALL Christians of ALL generations.  Whomever the cap fits - wear it.  How do we know?  Because of "whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES"  Neither letter was ever meant to be specific to that group or generation alone.  The Comforter is not confined to a singular person or a singular group.  They are long dead and He still says the same thing. We are ALL under the same dispensation, so, those letters apply to Christians in 2014 as well.

 

 

THREE

I don't recall suggesting that I believed the VISION was on earth.  And sun and moon and stars all represent things.  Israel?  Church?  There are commentaries that give their suggestions.  The 1/3 of stars are clearly fallen angels.

 

 

FOUR

I do not believe that the war in Heaven is symbolic.  I believe exactly what the Word says - that there was WAR IN HEAVEN, and both sides FOUGHT and finally Satan is permanently cast down, and because of such, there is great rejoicing IN HEAVEN at him being permanently cast out.  I do not believe any of that is symbolic, but an actual event.  John called the first two things "WONDERS", which, yes, were symbolic of something.  But the WAR IN HEAVEN, he did NOT call a "wonder".  He saw an actual battle. Interesting how this 12th chapter of Revelation fits in with the 12th chapter of Daniel, which also says that "Michael will stand up".  Why would Michael stand?  To do battle.

 

 

FIVE

I prepare my heart for the BIRTHPAINS.  Knowing things will get worst and worst leading UP TO that day.  But that is as far as it goes.  Concerning Jesus, they Disciples asked Him a TWO-FOLD question.  They asked what the signs of the end AND His second coming.  Jesus is answering both.  There is the Rapture, and then there is the Second Coming.  The Second Coming is not for the Christians.  So, what you are talking about is Jesus now dealing specifically with the JEWS, not the rest of the world. 

 

Jesus answered broadly, and He wrapped up the first part of the question and said, "And THEN THE END WILL COME."

 

But observe how He continued to go on talking about events?  He answered, broadly, concerning the Rapture, now He begins to answer the second part of the question, which concerns His Second Coming.  And since the Church is nowhere around, He is focused on the Jews.  You even typed it yourself: those in JUDEA.  Not, all ya'll all over the planet.  Jesus is dealing specifically with the Jews in this part.

 

 

SIX

I'm sorry, but I do feel sorry for those who doubt the delivering power of God.

 

How can God spare the home of a saved woman and unsaved man when the 100 pound boulders fall?

 

How can He spare the saint from bread that costs a days wage (what do you think gas or utilities or mortgage will cost?)?

 

Where is it written that any saint is sealed for protection?  The 144,000 are JEWISH MALES, probably babies or infants.  Only they are sealed and preserved.  144K is less than 0.01% of the words Jewish population (talk about a 'remnant').  Why are they a focus at that time?  Because the Church is gone.  All Satan has left to persecute is the Jews who rejected the Messiah.

 

Even Jesus promised, "You will NEVER see Me again UNTIL you learn to say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'"  Yes, Jews will finally say this when they face entire annihilation ... on the plains of Meggido.  THAT is when they turn.  Even Judaism teaches that is when the Messiah comes - when Jews collectively call on Him, or collectively convert.

 

And how in the world can you "prepare" for what is going to be GLOBAL?  If the sea rises, and if islands are moved from their places, and the coastlines shrink, and if you CANNOT buy or sell without the mark ... how can you even rent a cab or buy transportation to get away, or clothes, or medication, not to mention the slow, gruelsome starvation that will immediately follow?  Not only it is, in my opinion, unbilical and uncharacteristic of God, but is it illogical to think that you can "prepare" for the worst time that is to come upon the earth.

 

But no.  He raptured Noah, He will do so again.

 

He promised that He would not send destruction for the SAKE of His own people.

 

He has NOT appointed us unto wrath OR fear ... and your post-trib glorified both.  I do not fear what you do.  I know whose report I believe.

 

What sort of "blessed hope" can you possibly have if you are to endure?  How is enduring a "blessed HOPE"?  It's more like a blessed hopelessness.

 

What's worst, Revelation clearly, clearly shows that there is an uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  It is so very clear that these are the righteous souls of mankind.  They have palm trees (and they also represent celebration and completeness), and they are celebrating the Salvation.  Worthy to escape.  The second death (Hell) holds no threat over them.  They are clearly, clearly seen IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  So ... how'd they get there if the rapture is post-trib?

 

... so yes I feel sorry, because post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief.

 

So basically, what you are saying is that the post-tribbers have been fooled by demons and do not know the character of God? There are plenty of them on here. Perhaps you should address this to them!

 

 

No, I am saying: "post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief."

 

No need to manipulate what I typed.  That is what I typed.  That is what I meant.  If I wanted to accuse a group of being demonic, or fooled by demons, I would have typed it.

 

I believe that it has demonic influence.  All disbelief is demonic. 

 

Scriptures WARN believers to NOT be like Israel, who did not enter BECAUSE of unbelief.  Scriptures are very careful to tell us that Israel was an "ensample" (example).

 

post-trib is riddled with unbelief.

 

Will they ENTER for their unbelief?

 

... only God knows for certain.

 

It seems to me that God requires FULL service and FULL obedience and FULL belief, not a piece here and a piece there ... as if the commandments of Jesus are "options to be considered".

 

It's no different from anything else, from Jesus being an angel, to Jesus being black, to the Creation taking 6000 years, to every other "story" I've heard/read. 

 

And, for the record, I'm not looking for Armageddon.  I typed something to one person, rollin responded to ME.  I in turn responded to rollin.  I'm not interested in climbing Mount Zion and shouting, "Hear me all ye post tribers! behold..."

 

No.  I'm not looking for strife or argument or contention.  I'm not even asking anyone to change their way of thinking.  God reveals whatever He will to whomever He will, ... not me.

 

And, the other fact is, I never said any post triber was doomed for hellfire either.  I know what the warnings and examples of Israel are.  And I believe they apply (at the very least, why play with fire??).  But I've not said they would see hellfire.  So, please don't insert accusations on things I didn't, and never have, typed.  now, if they were messing with the Deity of Jesus, like the Jehovahs Witnesses do, then that is a different sort of demonic lie.  

 

 

 

Question of the day:

 

Is it the nature of God to destroy the righteous along with the wicked?  Yes ... or no?

 

 

Abraham lived in a time in which NONE of the Scriptures existed, yet, he knows more than Christians in 2014?  I find that amazing.

 

A PRIMITIVE MAN ... knows the Character of God ... more than people who have Gods full Word?  it is truly amazing.

 

 

Even Jesus said that wicked cities of old will have less severe Judgments.  Sodom and Gomorrah will have a better Judgment than AMERICA!  Why?  Because they were not told the Truth.  We were ... and still we refuse to accept Truth?  A harsher Judgment indeed.

[OakWood]

 

 

Hi Rollin.

 

I don't know how to organize my response like yours - multiple quotes.  But, I'll try to hit each question.

 

ONE:

1 Th 2:7

 

{{Hmmm  I'm pretty sure I was posting Scriptures yesterday, from my job (was saying "allow access") ... but now my copy and paste isn't pasting.  Sorry, but you're gonna have to look it up manually on your end.}}

 

I think a more merited question is ... why would He stay?  If the Church is raptured, and all dead saints from Abel to the last convert, why would the Comforter, who came FOR the Church, stay on earth when the Church is removed?

 

Then of course there is the "hear what Spirit says to the Churches" prior to the Tribulation, but then both Spirit and Church are removed while Tribulation is going on in the earth ... only leaving "He who has an ear, let them hear."

 

 

TWO

I think there is a misconception about the letters.  Yes, they were letters to those specific 7 Churches, but they are not meant for them solely.  They are meant for ALL Christians of ALL generations.  Whomever the cap fits - wear it.  How do we know?  Because of "whoever has an ear, let him - whoever he is - hear what the Spirit says to the ChurchES"  Neither letter was ever meant to be specific to that group or generation alone.  The Comforter is not confined to a singular person or a singular group.  They are long dead and He still says the same thing. We are ALL under the same dispensation, so, those letters apply to Christians in 2014 as well.

 

 

THREE

I don't recall suggesting that I believed the VISION was on earth.  And sun and moon and stars all represent things.  Israel?  Church?  There are commentaries that give their suggestions.  The 1/3 of stars are clearly fallen angels.

 

 

FOUR

I do not believe that the war in Heaven is symbolic.  I believe exactly what the Word says - that there was WAR IN HEAVEN, and both sides FOUGHT and finally Satan is permanently cast down, and because of such, there is great rejoicing IN HEAVEN at him being permanently cast out.  I do not believe any of that is symbolic, but an actual event.  John called the first two things "WONDERS", which, yes, were symbolic of something.  But the WAR IN HEAVEN, he did NOT call a "wonder".  He saw an actual battle. Interesting how this 12th chapter of Revelation fits in with the 12th chapter of Daniel, which also says that "Michael will stand up".  Why would Michael stand?  To do battle.

 

 

FIVE

I prepare my heart for the BIRTHPAINS.  Knowing things will get worst and worst leading UP TO that day.  But that is as far as it goes.  Concerning Jesus, they Disciples asked Him a TWO-FOLD question.  They asked what the signs of the end AND His second coming.  Jesus is answering both.  There is the Rapture, and then there is the Second Coming.  The Second Coming is not for the Christians.  So, what you are talking about is Jesus now dealing specifically with the JEWS, not the rest of the world. 

 

Jesus answered broadly, and He wrapped up the first part of the question and said, "And THEN THE END WILL COME."

 

But observe how He continued to go on talking about events?  He answered, broadly, concerning the Rapture, now He begins to answer the second part of the question, which concerns His Second Coming.  And since the Church is nowhere around, He is focused on the Jews.  You even typed it yourself: those in JUDEA.  Not, all ya'll all over the planet.  Jesus is dealing specifically with the Jews in this part.

 

 

SIX

I'm sorry, but I do feel sorry for those who doubt the delivering power of God.

 

How can God spare the home of a saved woman and unsaved man when the 100 pound boulders fall?

 

How can He spare the saint from bread that costs a days wage (what do you think gas or utilities or mortgage will cost?)?

 

Where is it written that any saint is sealed for protection?  The 144,000 are JEWISH MALES, probably babies or infants.  Only they are sealed and preserved.  144K is less than 0.01% of the words Jewish population (talk about a 'remnant').  Why are they a focus at that time?  Because the Church is gone.  All Satan has left to persecute is the Jews who rejected the Messiah.

 

Even Jesus promised, "You will NEVER see Me again UNTIL you learn to say, 'blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord'"  Yes, Jews will finally say this when they face entire annihilation ... on the plains of Meggido.  THAT is when they turn.  Even Judaism teaches that is when the Messiah comes - when Jews collectively call on Him, or collectively convert.

 

And how in the world can you "prepare" for what is going to be GLOBAL?  If the sea rises, and if islands are moved from their places, and the coastlines shrink, and if you CANNOT buy or sell without the mark ... how can you even rent a cab or buy transportation to get away, or clothes, or medication, not to mention the slow, gruelsome starvation that will immediately follow?  Not only it is, in my opinion, unbilical and uncharacteristic of God, but is it illogical to think that you can "prepare" for the worst time that is to come upon the earth.

 

But no.  He raptured Noah, He will do so again.

 

He promised that He would not send destruction for the SAKE of His own people.

 

He has NOT appointed us unto wrath OR fear ... and your post-trib glorified both.  I do not fear what you do.  I know whose report I believe.

 

What sort of "blessed hope" can you possibly have if you are to endure?  How is enduring a "blessed HOPE"?  It's more like a blessed hopelessness.

 

What's worst, Revelation clearly, clearly shows that there is an uncountable number IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  It is so very clear that these are the righteous souls of mankind.  They have palm trees (and they also represent celebration and completeness), and they are celebrating the Salvation.  Worthy to escape.  The second death (Hell) holds no threat over them.  They are clearly, clearly seen IN HEAVEN while Tribulation is going on in the earth.  So ... how'd they get there if the rapture is post-trib?

 

... so yes I feel sorry, because post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief.

 

So basically, what you are saying is that the post-tribbers have been fooled by demons and do not know the character of God? There are plenty of them on here. Perhaps you should address this to them!

 

 

No, I am saying: "post-trib "doctrine" has demonic lies all over it, and such do not know the character of God, or His promises, and they have not learned from the rebellion of Israel, which was unbelief."

 

No need to manipulate what I typed.  That is what I typed.  That is what I meant.  If I wanted to accuse a group of being demonic, or fooled by demons, I would have typed it.

 

I believe that it has demonic influence.  All disbelief is demonic. 

 

Scriptures WARN believers to NOT be like Israel, who did not enter BECAUSE of unbelief.  Scriptures are very careful to tell us that Israel was an "ensample" (example).

 

post-trib is riddled with unbelief.

 

Will they ENTER for their unbelief?

 

... only God knows for certain.

 

It seems to me that God requires FULL service and FULL obedience and FULL belief, not a piece here and a piece there ... as if the commandments of Jesus are "options to be considered".

 

It's no different from anything else, from Jesus being an angel, to Jesus being black, to the Creation taking 6000 years, to every other "story" I've heard/read. 

 

And, for the record, I'm not looking for Armageddon.  I typed something to one person, rollin responded to ME.  I in turn responded to rollin.  I'm not interested in climbing Mount Zion and shouting, "Hear me all ye post tribers! behold..."

 

No.  I'm not looking for strife or argument or contention.  I'm not even asking anyone to change their way of thinking.  God reveals whatever He will to whomever He will, ... not me.

 

And, the other fact is, I never said any post triber was doomed for hellfire either.  I know what the warnings and examples of Israel are.  And I believe they apply (at the very least, why play with fire??).  But I've not said they would see hellfire.  So, please don't insert accusations on things I didn't, and never have, typed.  now, if they were messing with the Deity of Jesus, like the Jehovahs Witnesses do, then that is a different sort of demonic lie.  

 

 

 

Question of the day:

 

Is it the nature of God to destroy the righteous along with the wicked?  Yes ... or no?

 

 

Abraham lived in a time in which NONE of the Scriptures existed, yet, he knows more than Christians in 2014?  I find that amazing.

 

A PRIMITIVE MAN ... knows the Character of God ... more than people who have Gods full Word?  it is truly amazing.

 

 

Even Jesus said that wicked cities of old will have less severe Judgments.  Sodom and Gomorrah will have a better Judgment than AMERICA!  Why?  Because they were not told the Truth.  We were ... and still we refuse to accept Truth?  A harsher Judgment indeed.

 

 

@Donibm

 

You're confusing God's punishment with acts of Satan.

Do you know that hundreds of thousands of Christians are being persecuted in Africa and the Middle East as we speak? They are already going through their own personal tribulation. How does this fit in with your theory of the righteous not being punished?

You accuse others of failing to understand scripture, but you do not realise that God punishes no one during the great Tribulation, only afterwards. People suffer during the Great Trib because they are being ruled by the Beast. They are not being punished by God!

You say that all disbelief comes from Satan, therefore you are accusing post-tribbers of having unbelief. Is that what you think, that post-tribbers lack belief? You are quick to judge others.

And for the record, I am neither pre-Trib nor post-Trib. I have yet to decide.

I have heard post-Tribbers say some shocking things about pre-Tribbers, even going so far as to call them influenced by demons, but I have always defended the pre-Tribber.

Now you appear to be attacking post-Tribbers in the same way. You accuse post-Tribbers of not understanding the character of God. Is this not an arrogant statement on your part?