spiritual athesism

[ecco]

Sqtazur

Humans have free will, and we're making the choice. God already knows what we're going to choose, but we're still the one choosing. Does that make any sense?

I understand your view. Perhaps you can explain a situation that puzzles me.

According to Genesis:

1. God created all including Adam & Eve.

2. Given free will, Eve ate the apple.

3. As a result of Eve eating the apple, god removed Adam & Eve from the Garden of Eden and thus began the downfall of man.

Now, since God knew before he created Eve that she would eat the apple, why didn

[ecco]

HalifaxChristian:

Anyway...science indeed does prove that we have a soul. According to the Theory of Evolution...the creature does not have control over itself...but that the surrounding Laws of Nature dictate its being. Scientific Athiest can attest to this.

Scientific Atheist? The first thing that came up in a Google search was a link to an article written by H.G. Wells. Are you taking this from the writings of this science fiction author. The writings of H.G. Wells are not considered science by any stretch of the imagination.

If this was truly the case...human beings, in turn, consist of nothing outside of pure physical substance. But do we see proof of this in mankind? To prove that men do not have souls...scientists would have to exhibit evidence that man does not have freewill. A creature that has control over its own thoughts, deeds, and actions is obviously controlled by something outside of physical matter.

As I posted earlier: A bird has freewill: go to one place to get worms; go to a different place to get worms. A worm has freewill: come out of the ground; stay in the ground. Are you suggesting that birds and worms have souls?

I assume that most readers here believe in freewill and choice...that a person has an entity within his/her self that is outside of the realm of physical explaination.

To put a label on what this "realm" is...is where religion/theology steps in.

I believe that the Bible sets forth rules and principals regarding this "entity" that is in harmony with both common sense and universal logic...harmony with nature, science, and the like.

To jump to a theological conclusion concerning this outside entity that influences and directs humans actions...is not the purpose right now. The purpose is to show scientifically that this "soul" is a fact.

Which is something no one can do.

The next step, after acknowleding its necessary existance...would be to discover a theology in relation to it.

If it is of any consolation...I believe that God creates the soul/spirit at birth and that this soul lives on forever after death...either in heaven or in hell.

Also...there are additional proofs supporting "souls", or "spirit", in this universe. Namely, the fact that science says that for every effect...there must be an initial CAUSE. Matter cannot be CREATED NOR DESTROYED. Both of these general scientific truths are compatible with Christian thinking.

You

[halifaxchristian]

Ecco...you are right that if matter ALWAYS WAS...that defeats the "initial beginning" argument. But, again, you must then use science to prove that...and to my knowledge, there is actually scientific evidence for the exact opposite...namely, that the earth had an origin in time. The steady-state theory went down with the old text books decades ago. I am not aware of any reputable scientists nowadays who believe in an eternal universe without a beginning. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Secondly, I said that evolution calls for creatures to have no outside controls of their own circumstance...and referred to Scientific Athiest, who has said this before in previous threads. I was not alluding that he is the only proponent of this theory...and I apologise if taken otherwise. The evolution theory has maintained this idea from the get-go, and please alert me if wrong...rather than responding by shooting down a believer, rather than the belief...so to speak. Don't get me wrong...I am guilty of this also...and I hope you will bring such to my awareness also in the future.

Thirdly, you say that if the universe had to have a beginning...then God had to have a beginning. You see...using an argument like that actually SUPPORTS the idea of a Creator. Now put aside all prejudices for the moment. If you say that God had to have creator, and that creator had to have a creator, and the creator of that creator had to have a creator...and on and on...all this actually does is support the premise that there AT ONE POINT IN TIME HAD TO BE AN INITIAL BEGINNER. Regardless of how far back you go...the end result is the same. Of course, I disagree with that assessment...but even if one chooses to use that debate strategy against Christians...it can be easily and worthily used as the oppositions own worst medicine.

God bless you in seeking...

[ecco]

ecco

Now, since God knew before he created Eve that she would eat the apple, why didn

[ecco]

All Quoted comments are from HalifaxChristian

Ecco...you are right that if matter ALWAYS WAS...that defeats the "initial beginning" argument. But, again, you must then use science to prove that

As I stated: Science has not been able to answer that question YET. Just as 4000 years ago science could not answer the question of where the sun goes at night.

and to my knowledge, there is actually scientific evidence for the exact opposite...namely, that the earth had an origin in time. The steady-state theory went down with the old text books decades ago. I am not aware of any reputable scientists nowadays who believe in an eternal universe without a beginning. Please correct me if I am wrong.

You are correct

[halifaxchristian]

Perhaps I have a simple mind...and I praise God that I do. To some...the points I bring up make no sense. But to me...it's just plain common sense.

I can't argue you into heaven...all I can do is my part. And I have done it.

I plant the seed, and pray for God to give the increase...my job here is done.

Hope to see you all in heaven.