Belief Systems / Religion / Traditions of Men

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

Qnts2:

 

How much did the Oral Law play in the life of a Pharisee?

 

The Law was seen as a system of limitations-the more restrictions in the Law the purer the righteousness according to the Pharisees.

 

we know today in our society, red tape and bureaucratic systems can stifle any member of the public to give up on keeping the by-laws and statutes that are demanded.

 

Jesus only tried to teach true piety was not in forms but in substance.

 

Humility, meekness, mercy, compassion, and peacemakers.

Do the Pharisees show these characteristics in the NT?

 

Matthew 23 sums up Jesus view on them.And He is the sole authority on the Law.

 

But it was the leaven of the Pharisees Jesus warned His followers to avoid mostly-which is hypocrisy.

It's not just the Pharisees, we all can be guilty of that type of leaven at times.

 

Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea, and Paul., all Pharisees. So true, they aren't all bad in the end. It's not an attack on the person but rather their practices.

 

You can become so inweaved in minute precepts to such an extent with instructions so numerous and trifling that it's possible to lose sight of the Law itself.

 

Looking up Pharisees on most research sites, encyclos, bible dictionaries, and others the consensus is they were the enemy of Jesus because of their over zealous pursuit of the truth in their traditions and understandings rather than in the true Word of God.

 

Paul explains the whole point  in 1 Cor 5:8

 

Have you ever read any of the writings of any Pharisees? Have you read the writings of Hillel senior?

Have you even read about Gamaliel in the NT? Was he showing mercy? Was he trying to be a peacemaker? The trouble is, you really do not know their practices. You only quote their failures, but miss all of the good things they did.  

 

Again, generally speaking, the Pharisees were good people. Most were unsaved. Many believed on Jesus and were saved.

 

Of people in general who were unsaved, do you know that all people who are not saved, who are lost, are enemies of God and Jesus. Not just Pharisees who did not accept Jesus, but all people who reject Jesus are enemies of God.

 

My source is the NT scriptures-you can read what Jesus says about the Pharisees primarily in the four gospels.

No other source trumps God's word.

The Bible documents Jesus's warnings and charges verbatim concerning the Pharisees.

Defending a group of religious leaders that operated with malice and plotting in Jesus's case could be considered enemies of God.

Remember, Jesus, who was the God of the Old Testament is the recipient of any worship from these groups whether they knew it or not.

Jesus was the word and the creator of everything that is. We exist because of Him. What Christ states we should believe.

The evil we do leads to condemnation but the good things we do will not save us unless we are in Christ Jesus.

I stand with Jesus.

 

 

The scriptures record exchanges between some of the Pharisees and Jesus. These were said to Jewish people from a Jewish context by a Jewish Messiah. The Jewish people knew the character, teachings and actions of the Pharisees. In other words, your understanding of what was happening and being said is out of context. And, you seem to miss where Jesus agreed with the Pharisees, complimented them, and misses the positive things said about the Pharisees. In other words, your interpretation of scripture gives a slanted and unaccurate view.

 

Why does this matter? Because you seem to be missing what is actually being said. Plus, your interpretation paints a negative extreme of some actual people. From a Jewish perspective, you are painting the NT as anti-Jewish. Jesus, Who was born a Jew, never gave an anti-Jewish statement and neither did Paul. The anti-Jewish interpretation not only alters what is actually being said, but causes a misrepresentation of what the NT actually says and is about to the Jewish people.

 

Jesus often agreed with the Pharisees understanding of the scriptures, so the corrections were more like, 'you have all of this right, but you missed it here'. The exchange with the Pharisees shows that the Pharisees saw Jesus as a Rabbi and a leader of a small Rabbinical school. There were multiple groups of Pharisees related to various schools. The biggest and most popular school majored on mercy, so when you challenge Pharisees as lacking any teaching on mercy, that is very clearly wrong. Bad interpretation, and understanding which leads to idea which are clearly false, does not do any good. Especially when you are representing Jesus. 

I understand the NT bible to be strictly Jewish in its practices and its customs. When Jesus was alive and the Apostles there was no NT. They all used the OT as their basis for teaching. Jesus quoted from the OT hundreds of time. And He didn't come to destroy the Law He came to fulfill it.

Anti-Jewish arguments didn't surface until the NT church started converting gentiles. And dissension was spreading.I wasn't on that path.

But the Pharisees confronted Jesus many times trying to trip Him up and followed Him to gather evidence to prove their accusations. these were just exchanges?

If anything we could label the Pharisees as anti-Christ. The Pharisees were Jews, the Apostles were Jews, everybody was Jewish-there was no anti-Semitism among them.

But the Pharisees were bent on getting Christ killed.and to blame them for their part in that has nothing to do with the Jewish religion it has to do with their attitude and actions.

self-righteousness is the antithesis of Godly righteousness.

Yes there was some who worshipped Him but He said " In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" Matt 15:9

The Pharisees witnessed Jesus' miracles and accused Him of being of the devil which Jesus called blasphemy against him.

They would lie in wait in the synagogues hoping that He would heal on the Sabbath so they would have something tangible to take to the authorities.

Jesus was mad at them but not in the way you or I might be but because He greived at the hardness of their heart.

They were the epitome of religious bigotry.

The sad part is Jesus loved them, as He does with all sinners, and they with their bitter hatred continued their persecution.

 

Please show me the up side of all this-where were the compliments and agreements in scripture?

.

 

 

Anti-Jewish arguments did not start until the Gentiles became the majority. But today, the church is filled with anti-Jewish arguments. The understanding of the Pharisees is a slanted view but not accurate in much of Christians peoples thought. It is so off in the extremity that many Jewish people who know the good of the Pharisees but have never read the NT, think the NT must be anti-semitic. This is not true but is a reflection of the inaccurate teaching.  

 

The Pharisees did not lie in wait at the synagogues to catch Jesus violating the law. In reality, the Pharisees built the synagogue system and were the leaders, heads of the synagogues. They did not lie in wait. They were already there teaching and had been for years. The term 'lie in wait', is inflamatory and inaccurate. It puts a slant which is highly negative and undeserved.  

 

Now for a more accurate picture of the synagogues. The Pharisees built these synagogues so that the people could come to them and learn scripture (OT). There is no law that the people had to go to the synagogues, but it was free education, so many of the Jewish people gladly went to the synagogues to learn scripture. In the Judaism of that day, some of the Pharisees/Rabbis would be resident in different locations as teachers of those people, and as judges as each area needed judges. Other Pharisees/Rabbis, would take on students/disciples. They would live and travel with their disciples, to teach the people and to train the disciples to be Rabbis. When a travelling Pharisee/Rabbi with disciples would visit a town, they would go to the synagogues. It was common practice for the local Pharisees/Rabbis to have the visiting Rabbi teach. That is why Jesus was so often allowed to teach, as He was recognized as a traveling Rabbi with disciples.  

 

Mark 1:21 They *went into Capernaum; and immediately on the Sabbath He entered the synagogue and began to teach.

 

Jesus travelled and taught in synagogues, which was very typical and a standard mode of Pharisaical Judaism.

 

Another typical method of teaching among the Pharisees, and in Judaism, is teaching by debate. A group of Pharisees would debate a topic. The people would listen to the debate to see the possible meanings of scripture. This was a method of deciding what was true and of teachings.  The modern term for this kind of debate is  called pilpul.

As a side, when I was a child, at dinner time, my father would introduce a topic, I would state my opinion and my father would take an alternate opinion. We would debate our two stances. That way I could see the weakness and strengths of my opinion. When we were done, often I now held the view my father argued. We would start again, only this time I argued for my fathers former stance, and he would argue for my old stance, or a completely new one. This is a fairly typical exercise in many Jewish homes and is a method of teaching. So, when Jesus taught in synagogues, it was because He was a travelling Rabbi with students/disciples, and these travelling Rabbis were honored by being allowed or asked to teach in the synagogues by the resident Rabbis/Pharisees.  Some of the debates are standard Jewish practice. Some of the debates flaired up emotions, and became more serious.

 

Remember, there were different schools of Pharisees with differing outlooks on the interpretation of scripture. These differing schools would debate, and disagree.   

 

 The Pharisees were not the epitomy of religious bigotry. That kind of statement is a gross overstatement and generalization.

 

Theologically, the biggest issue for the Pharisees was that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, which made Jesus equal to God. In Judaism, if a person claimed this, it is viewed as a lie, and if Jesus had not been telling the truth, it would have been punishable by death. Most of the Pharisees did not believe a flesh and blood person could be God or equal with God, and since they though that to be impossible, any person who made that claim was to be stoned. Also, Jesus claimed to be Messiah, and the expression in Judaism is King Messiah. Jesus claimed to be King. That was against Roman law. The Pharisees did not believe Jesus was Messiah because Jesus claimed to be God, so Jesus could not be King Messiah. Had they in general believed Jesus to be the Messiah, they would have fought by His side, knowing He would defeat Roman rule of Israel. Rome was already coming down on the people, and were Rome to hear about Jesus claims to be King, Rome would have sent armies into Judea. So, a rejection of Jesus as God led to a rejection of Jesus as Messiah, and then a rejection of Jesus as King. Fearing Roman invasion, during a time when Roman rule was very harsh on the Jewish people. So, Yes. Many of the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead, because they thought He deserved death according to the law, and that He deserved death.

 

I have shown in scripture several compliments and agreements. But if you want another one.....

 

One of the Pharisaical schools was started by Hillel, before Jesus time. Hillel was known for his mercy and teachings on mercy. I have already noted that it was Hillel that taught that teaching scripture (OT) should be available to all for free so those Pharisees who came from his school worked other jobs to support themselves so that they could teach the people, free of charge. Paul was a Pharisee of the school of Hillel, and Paul continued the practice of working for his own care so that he could teach and preach the gospel for free.

 

Anyway, there is a story of a young man who wanted to learn Torah, but being impatient, wanted to understand the scriptures very quickly. The story goes (as a teaching device), that the young man went to Hillel and asked Hillel to teach him what the Torah was about, while he stood on one foot. Hillels response was that the Torah taught  'Treat others as you would have others treat you', and told the young man to read and study the Torah to learn how to do that. This of course is the second greatest command and summarizes much of scripture.   

[One With Him]

Some ask why God things the way he did in history. To give mankind true choice, for one. And to deal with the human ability / capacity to believe untruth AS truth DESPITE all the evidence in fact against what they hold to be true. I suppose the biggest and IMHO the stupidest one is "there is no absolute truth." <--- which is a statement of absolute truth to those who believe it. If it were true then how could they say it is true because it cancels itself out.

 

Even in the Body Christian we have division and splits and denominations and whatnot and I don't know what all because we choose to make our own beliefs more authoritative than the Bible. 

 

Mark 7:7-13 essentially says these traditions of man nullify the Word of God.

 

Now there are some blatant errors in beliefs out there, Mormons, JW's, Jews who reject Jesus as the Messiah, etc. etc. But there are in the household of God Christians who teach many many things contrary to the Bible and they will blast you from their doctrinal canons if you dare challenge them especially with scripture.

 

This is all why God gave the Law first and went through a religious system (Judaism) first, to get this gobbledygook out of the way and get to the heart of faith in Christ. 

 

God's essential message to man is there are only two ways:

 

God's way

 

not God's way

 

That's it. If you choose to follow the traditions of men (no matter how long held by a church or denomination whatever) you are in the not God's way side of the ledger and at the top of it is the name Satan.

 

This is how and why Jesus called Peter Satan in Matthew 16:23 in stark contrast to Matthew 16:17. Note the difference (verse 17 God's way verse 23 not God's way).

 

This is true about all human philosophies...

 

James 4:4 (NASB95)

4 You adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is hostility toward God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.

 

'Satan' means opposer / enemy.  It's hard for us to face the truth sometimes that any of our deviations from God and God's way is actually satanic... even among believers (and / or alleged believers) in Christ.

Let me first say I love it! Second, I haven't read any of the other responses so i am sorry if I repeat anyone.

 

Tradition breeds ignorance. The religous leaders of Christ day were just going through the motions. I think there is a lot of man made traditions in the church. The Bible says in Matthew 23:9 "And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father and he is in heaven. (NIV) But churches have little things for father's day. Some church even have haunted houses for halloween. So yes I would say there is a great deal of man made tradition in church today.

 

But getting rid of it is another thing all together. I think we put it in so we feel like we are contributing in some small way. Most would not think anything having father's day. God Bless

[One With Him]

I used to have a bumper sticker that read: THOSE WHO THINK THEY KNOW IT ALL UPSET THOSE OF US WHO DO!. lol

 

Do you know where I can get one of these for my wife?

[fruitfull77]

Qnts2:

 

Good day, issues are being compounded and some deserve a little more scrutiny so perhaps we could examine one item at a time to give its just deserves.

 

First I have to say all Pharisees are not all evil plotting monsters just as all Muslims are not terrorists.

 

But I use scripture as my proof before making a claim and if there is something to reject it then all verses relative to the subject are evaluated to get at the truth.

 

A lot of what we are discussing is not doctrinal but it gives us a picture of the atmosphere and conditions during Jesus ministry.

 

So, you said the Pharisees did not lay in wait for Jesus to break the Law on the Sabbath.

 

I submit Mark 3:1-2 as my proof - :" ...and they watched Him whether He would heal on the Sabbath day (this was inside the synagogue)" -also Mark 12:12-13

and Luke 6:6-11

In Luke 20:20 they used spies pretending to be believers so they could trap Him in some illegal activity concerning the law.

 

To all of this Jesus understood their acts of collusion and called it what is was " why are you trying to tempt me, you pack of hypocrites?" Mark 12:15,,,

 

Jesus was only doing good in all of these episodes and the Pharisees witnessed the miraculous healings of Christ and yet instead of rejoicing and praising our Lord for curing the lame and diseased they went out and held counsel with the Herodians against Him, how to destroy Him. Mark 3 6

 

What is your interpretation of the resentment of these amazing and blessed miracles towards their people by the Pharisees?

[Qnts2]

Qnts2:

 

Good day, issues are being compounded and some deserve a little more scrutiny so perhaps we could examine one item at a time to give its just deserves.

 

First I have to say all Pharisees are not all evil plotting monsters just as all Muslims are not terrorists.

 

But I use scripture as my proof before making a claim and if there is something to reject it then all verses relative to the subject are evaluated to get at the truth.

 

A lot of what we are discussing is not doctrinal but it gives us a picture of the atmosphere and conditions during Jesus ministry.

 

So, you said the Pharisees did not lay in wait for Jesus to break the Law on the Sabbath.

 

I submit Mark 3:1-2 as my proof - :" ...and they watched Him whether He would heal on the Sabbath day (this was inside the synagogue)" -also Mark 12:12-13

and Luke 6:6-11

In Luke 20:20 they used spies pretending to be believers so they could trap Him in some illegal activity concerning the law.

 

To all of this Jesus understood their acts of collusion and called it what is was " why are you trying to tempt me, you pack of hypocrites?" Mark 12:15,,,

 

Jesus was only doing good in all of these episodes and the Pharisees witnessed the miraculous healings of Christ and yet instead of rejoicing and praising our Lord for curing the lame and diseased they went out and held counsel with the Herodians against Him, how to destroy Him. Mark 3 6

 

What is your interpretation of the resentment of these amazing and blessed miracles towards their people by the Pharisees?

 

Lay in wait implies a kind of stalking, following or spying, in order to pounce. The Pharisees, who ran the synagogues did not lay in wait. They were in the synagogues every Sabbath. It was Jesus Who entered their synagogue. They were not laying in wait of Jesus, but rather Jesus went to them.

 

As far as the miracles, you are standing from a position of believing, and probably having grown up in a form of Christianity. The Pharisees believed the OT was from God. There was no NT.

 

The Pharisees were men who studied the scripture (OT) and taught the Jewish people using their own time for free, how to obey God accoding to the only scriptures, which means the OT and the Mosaic laws that God had given them, so they would be obedient to God. The people loved the Pharisees for the sacrifices they made for the people. They setup and ran the synagogues for the people. Some of them were judges, and were  to determine if a person actually was the promised Messiah. They anticipated that they were within the time of the Messiah. There were several potential people who some said might be the Messiah. The Pharisees didn't want to lead the people to accept a person as Messiah who wasn't as that would be disobedient to God. So, when a man named Jesus (Yeshua, which was a common name back then), came into their synagogues, assuming it was after the time of the rumors going around that a man called Jesus, son of Joseph, might be the Messiah, they would be watching and listening. It was their job. Jesus was viewed as a Rabbi, so was given certain honors and privileges, including being allowed to teach, but if Jesus taught against the laws of God, He would not be allowed to teach, and if Jesus spoke against the laws given by God or broke the laws of God, Jesus certainly would not be the Messiah.  

 

So, they didn't lay in wait, but they would certainly be judging His words and actions, as they were supposed to be judging His words and actions.

 

Are all miracles from God?  The simple answer is no. Would a miracle from God violate Gods own commands? The answer is no.

 

 

So, the Pharisees were not 'laying in wait'. Rather a man named Yeshua (Jesus), walked into their synagogues. As judges and leaders, they were to judge whether Jesus was the Messiah, as rumored, and if He wasn't, they were to reject Him as the Messiah, just like they rejected others who were claimed to be the Messiah. According to Judaism, the Messiah was to enter Jerusalem thru the Eastern Gate at the time of Passover, go up to the Temple, and the Priest (head of the judges), was to greet Him with the Messianic greeting, at which point, the Jewish people who were to obey the judges, would have accepted that person as the Messiah. Of course, this was before the time when Jesus actually did enter the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem at Passover time, and went up to the Temple. At the Temple, they asked some questions, but based on previous experiences with Jesus and based on Jesus claim to be the Son of God and God, rather then the Priest accept Jesus as Messiah and giving Him the Messianic greeting, Jesus was rejected as the Messiah. That was the saddest day for Judaism as they did not know or recognize that Jesus was the Messiah.  

 

As far as healing on the Sabbath. The Sabbath law was to do no work. One of the definitions of work was creative work, such as healing. Yet, the Pharisees made exceptions to the law when it involved a matter of danger to life. Safety and well being comes first. So, if Jesus had done a miracle which fell under the higher law of life, that would have been valid, but if what Jesus did violated the Sabbath, according to the Mosaic law, He might have done something which deserved the penalty of death. Had He violated the Sabbath, He could not be the Messiah as the Messiah would never violate the law. Pharoahs magicians did 'miracles' of changing their staffs to snakes but not by the power of God. Moses also changed his staff to a snake, but that was a miracle from God. We are to judge even miracles.

 

When I read the OT, I see the Pharisees challenging Jesus, and they should have challenged Jesus. It was their job. But, what I also see is that Jesus answered all of their challenges correctly. Some Pharisees did think Jesus was the Messiah, but most did not.

 

Not that long after Jesus death, another person claimed to be the Messiah. Simon ben Kosibah, known as Bar Kokhba (Son of a Star). Some of the Pharisees believed Bar Kokhba was the Messiah, and some did not. One of the higher ranked leaders/Pharisees believed Bar Kokhba was the Messiah, so he gained a following. Bar Kokhba started a revolution against Roman rule (which is what they expected). Initially, Bar Kokhba was successful and Israel was free from Roman rule for about 3 years. Rome sent a stronger army, and that army defeated Israel. At that time, because one of the highest leaders of the Pharisees had supported Bar Kokhba as Messiah, the Jewish people who believed in Jesus would not fight along side Bar Kokhba. When they were defeated, the Pharisees blamed the Messianic Jews for Jesus for the loss and thought of them as traitors. That forever divided the Jewish believers in Jesus and non-believing Jews. Jewish believers were no longer allowed to teach in the synagogues. And of course, Bar Kokhba was declared officially to not be the Messiah as he did not fulfill the requirements.  

 

In the 1600's, another figure arose called Shabbatai Zevi. Shabbatai was a great student of the Torah, and followed mystical Judaism (Kabbalah). It was a dark time for the Jewish people. Shabbatai gave the people great hope in God and awakened many to the spiritual aspects of God. Some started to believe Shabbatai Zevi might be the Messiah, so stories traveled quickly of his teaching and 'miracles'. The Rabbis were divided. Many did not think Shabbatai was the Messiah but some did. The Rabbis studied Shabbatai to see what he taught, as he traveled around to the various synagogues. And challenged him. In the end, some did follow him declaring him the Messiah. Too many. Until Shabbatai went into Muslim territory (claimed that he was lead there by God). The Muslims arrested Shabbatai, and told him that he either had to convert to Islam, or he had to prove he was the Messiah, as they would shoot flaming arrows at him. If he was the Messiah, God would protect him. Shabbatai converted to Islam.  

[jetson]

I notice you did not include the catholic religion, another tradition of men.  Was there a reason.

[Willa]

There was a man named Joseph in Matt 27:57, Luke 23:50 who was a member of the counsel, and who was a disciple, who provided his own grave for Jesus' body. Paul was a pharasee of the pharasees. The people I see Jesus not spending time with are the Sadducees.

[JohnD]

I notice you did not include the catholic religion, another tradition of men.  Was there a reason.

 

I am uncertain who you directed this towards.

 

If I was remiss in repeating what I have said many times...

 

Emperor Constantine was desperate to save his crumbling empire. He even had to establish a second capital city (Constantinople). He saw in the pesky Christian sect a cohesiveness his empire sorely lacked. So he legalized Christianity among other outlawed religions and between his mother and himself put Christianity on the fast track to becoming the religion of State. You will find many ancient "Christian" sites in the holy land and the region were located by his mother Helena based simply on her whimsy. The Church of the holy sepulcher, for example. Nothing indicates the crucifixion site and the burial site were one and the same. But she thought so. Nothing indicates either was west of the city, but she thought so. It could be Gordon's Calvary, it could have been Jeremiah's Grotto, but official Rome later established a Church over the site of Mother Helena's pick. That same is true about Mount Sinai. Some use various sleight of hand arguments to put it on the Sinai peninsula (which was so named at a later date), but the archaeological evidence places the Mount Sinai at modern day Jabal Al Lawz in Saudi Arabia.

 

The two laid the groundwork for what the Roman Empire itself would morph into by the 10th Century CE... the Roman Catholic Empire (Church) whose capital is in Rome to this day. Constantine and mum might not have had the full vision... but when you think about it, what binds a people together more and outlasts kings and kingdoms, empires and emperors, presidents and democracies more than religion?

 

World capital in Rome.

Instead of a Cesar you have a Pope.

Instead of a Senate you have Cardinals.

Instead of regional governors you have Bishops.

Right on down to the last nun.

 

This happened at a critical time in Church history.

 

The Church had been under fierce persecution from the Jewish leadership and the Romans took up the task directly afterward. The Church (the people who believe) was in hiding and unable to have open councils to determine doctrine and even to canonize the writings of the Apostles. The persecution did not lift until nearly 3 centuries later. This had the effect of galvanizing the rift between Christianity and the Jewish people by a number of generations (a strategy which is almost never reversible). Then it becomes a matter of blood feuds and bloodlines. Islam, for example was quite actually a religion at the point of a sword in its beginning 1,000 years ago. But now it is a religion of families, clans, nations, and regions through bloodlines.

 

Fortunately, the councils of the early (legalized) Church did have a biblical mandate in the apostolic texts and the Old Testament (Jewish Tanakh) to guide them... before all the Roman Catholic additions... so the hand of Constantine and Helena only had some influence on them but no prejudicial interference / obstruction which came later with the transition from Empire to Holy Imperial Church.

 

The Protestant movement had the right idea, but did not reform nearly enough. This is not to be confused with the Preterist movement which masquerades as a modern reform movement amongst the churches which only disrupts the Body Christian and removes prophetic warning signs from biblical interpretation (which believers desperately need now more than ever)... But the true Reformation movement did not reform to the early Church which was more than Hebrew-friendly it was totally Hebrew in its earliest days. The radical Gentile take-over along with the Jewish abandonment resulted in a Church that suffers from a severe identity crisis (which is why there are so many fractures and divisions also the traditions of men reinvent over and over)... which despite all this God can and does save people who believe in Jesus... but the number of the saved cannot be as big as many suppose since among the divisions are those who teach another Jesus another gospel and another spirit. 

 

 

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 (NIV)

3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. <--- this is a chastisement, btw

 

Galatians 1:8-9 (NIV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

 

The Potter's House, TD Jakes will teach you that Jesus is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in different modes. The United Pentecostal Church and the Apostolic Church will teach you the same. The Bible teaches the three are equal co-existing individuals who are the one God. And the modalism / Sabellianism  they teach is false. The Roman Catholic Church comes dangerously close to calling Mary a co-savior along with Jesus which is the Christianized version of the Queen of Heaven cult from the days of Jeremiah.

 

So, if I omitted Roman Catholicism... forgive me.

[JohnD]

I must post a companion addition to the "Christianity in Identity Crisis" posts...

 

I do not advocate blaming your pastor, congregation, denomination, etc. nor setting out on your own to try to resolve that identity crisis... for this is essentially how all the divisions played themselves out not to mention quite a number of cults. 

 

The idea is not to go off on a tare deciphering what the Bible says based on your own or the limited understanding of others as to what the Bible says but rather to learn what the Bible actually says and accepting it and living under that authority of divine truth.

 

Neither am I trying to do as revisionist denomination leaders or cult leaders have done with a "follow me" campaign to develop followers after themselves. I say follow Christ, follow the Bible. I am only a fellow follower.

 

Talk with your pastor in a non confrontational manner. Ask if there is any way we could be following the Bible better. Listen. Test all things (including their answers) by scripture as I say repeatedly to the point of redundancy...

 

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)
21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

 

1 John 4:1 (NASB95)
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

2 Timothy 3:16-18 (NASB95)
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

John 16:13 (NASB95)
13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

 

If there is no answer or the answer is "this is how we have always done it taught it or said it" or "theologians can't agree on what the Bible says on..."

 

Consider joining a Bible based congregation rather than one that only claims to be.

 

And study the Bible as the most precious thing in this life you have. Seek out your own spiritual gifts and use them in ministry to the Body of Christ as we are all priests before God every one of us believers.

 

1 Peter 2:3-9 (NASB95)
3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”
8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

[One With Him]

I must post a companion addition to the "Christianity in Identity Crisis" posts...

 

I do not advocate blaming your pastor, congregation, denomination, etc. nor setting out on your own to try to resolve that identity crisis... for this is essentially how all the divisions played themselves out not to mention quite a number of cults. 

 

The idea is not to go off on a tare deciphering what the Bible says based on your own or the limited understanding of others as to what the Bible says but rather to learn what the Bible actually says and accepting it and living under that authority of divine truth.

 

Neither am I trying to do as revisionist denomination leaders or cult leaders have done with a "follow me" campaign to develop followers after themselves. I say follow Christ, follow the Bible. I am only a fellow follower.

 

Talk with your pastor in a non confrontational manner. Ask if there is any way we could be following the Bible better. Listen. Test all things (including their answers) by scripture as I say repeatedly to the point of redundancy...

 

1 Thessalonians 5:21 (NASB95)

21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;

 

1 John 4:1 (NASB95)

1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

Acts 17:11 (NASB95)

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

 

2 Timothy 3:16-18 (NASB95)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

 

2 Peter 1:20-21 (NASB95)

20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

 

John 16:13 (NASB95)

13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

 

If there is no answer or the answer is "this is how we have always done it taught it or said it" or "theologians can't agree on what the Bible says on..."

 

Consider joining a Bible based congregation rather than one that only claims to be.

 

And study the Bible as the most precious thing in this life you have. Seek out your own spiritual gifts and use them in ministry to the Body of Christ as we are all priests before God every one of us believers.

 

1 Peter 2:3-9 (NASB95)

3 if you have tasted the kindness of the Lord.

4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,

5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

6 For this is contained in Scripture: “Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed.”

7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone,”

8 and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense”; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

i see what your trying to say, but Jesus saw what was wrong with the church of his day. What would you have said if Jesus had came to you way back in the day and he told you the things he saw in the church of his day that was wrong? Would you tell him to go talk to the high priest? I understand that the Bible sets down clear guide lines for dealing with problems in the church, however we also need to remember that their are wolves in sheeps clothing.

 

 "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God" I would say pray and fast over it and see what God would have you do. Trust in God not man.