Reasons Why God Allows Suffering?

[GoldenEagle]

I look at people like Job and Paul.  When Job was really in the midst of all of his suffering he said thing like, " I know my Redeemer lives, and though He slay me yet will I praise Him."  Paul rejoiced in his suffering.  He prayed constantly for other believers and rejoiced in his pain.  I have to be honest here I find it difficult to be as these two men were.  But I keep reminding myself that someday this will all be over and we will never see suffering and pain again.  That my friend is worth it all. 

 

Yes exactly! Amen sister.

I too find it difficult to rejoice in suffering. But suffering is a part of life this side of eternity. One day there will be no more suffering, no more pain, no more tears.

Indeed, Jesus is worth it all

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

I look at people like Job and Paul.  When Job was really in the midst of all of his suffering he said thing like, " I know my Redeemer lives, and though He slay me yet will I praise Him."  Paul rejoiced in his suffering.  He prayed constantly for other believers and rejoiced in his pain.  I have to be honest here I find it difficult to be as these two men were.  But I keep reminding myself that someday this will all be over and we will never see suffering and pain again.  That my friend is worth it all. 

 

 

Hi Rustyangel,

 

Job is different, he wasn't in the Covenant we have and brought the stuff on himself through his fear.

 

Now with Paul, notice that when he said he rejoiced in his sufferings he said that he was weak, BUT THEN HE WAS STRONG. In other words, his reliance on the anointing (the anointing that now abides in us, which is the anointing that came with The Anointed One, as referenced in 1 John) made him strong, and he OVERCAME the problems; he told Timothy later that all that tremendous junk he was delivered OUT of them ALL by God - through him standing on God's Word (just like Jesus). He KNEW Him in whom he had believed, he was trying to believe or convince himself, he KNEW Him and stood on what He had said.

 

The reason why any Believer finds it difficult to rejoice in sufferings and weaknesses et caetera is because they are only taught that first part - no one teaches on how to use the anointing and stand on the Word like Paul is talking about to gain total victory in every circumstance/storm/situation. He rejoiced because he knew he was victorious - this thing could not overcome him!

 

You don't have to tolerate pain and suffering, they aren't God's will for you. Don't take them, take the blessing instead, take healing, take provision, take victory and protection - it's all been laid up for you legally in the New Covenant. Take possession of it, just the way the Israelites were given legally the Promised Land, but they had to go in and TAKE POSSESSION of it. God is the same yesterday today and forever, so if that's how He does things, and you look at what He's released and given you by the cross (your inheritance (Jesus told Paul tell them about the forgiveness of sins AND their inheritance), then it's on you to take it and start walking in it by learning how to stand on what God has guaranteed in His Word. Be like Abraham, consider not your circumstance but the Word of God only. If it isn't instant it doesn't change the Truth; sometimes it's instant, other times it takes a while, but never put your faith into the future - take it TODAY with your faith and with your patience KEEP IT. Don't say anything crosswise of the Word. Say what He says, Jesus got good results like that.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

GE, you posted a lot over TG, but I will reply here.

 

 

 

Curious though as to your thoughts on

 

 

So by this logic, that whatever you see that anyone has said in the Word that that means that that is the Truth and God Himself vouches for it? (this is what I infer from your question in the Joseph thread).

 

If so, God has a lot to say about what Job's friends said, saying they were all wrong and that Job himself was wrong (though in being wrong he did not curse God, and therefore did not sin) and He would instruct them.

 

There are many other places where someone says something that does not line up with what God actually has laid out/said/etc.

 

Eve said that God said not to even TOUCH the fruit, but notice God did not correct her, so now do we say God lied or made a mistake because He didn't correct her self-deception? Surely God was with Eve and Adam (He was in the sinless Garden with them).

 

Cain did the same thing, RIGHT TO GOD'S OWN FACE, and notice God leaves him in his own self-deception after he just made up a whole bunch of trash and lies about what God had said.

 

So trying to say that because Joseph said what he said, that God destroyed his life to save some gentiles (those outside the Covenant) is a joke and goes against the Covenant itself and is insulting to God for what God had said He would do for the seed of Abraham.

 

So to sum up, God did not bring upon Joseph what his brothers did. They acted out of hate and jealousy; Joseph was in the bloodline of Abraham and had the Blessing of Abraham, just as we do today; we aren't told what Joseph was saying during those times, but whatever he did say determined whether he lived or died (Proverbs 18:21) or had blessing or cursing (Deut 30:19 and Prov 18:21).

 

The Blessing is sort of like having an iPhone. We could standard issue an iPhone to every Believer, but unless taught, very few will ever walk in all the features of the phone and all it can do. Even when taught, they could still make mistakes (operator errors). The iPhone can do 100s of things for you, but unless you know what to do, it just kind of sits in your pocket and is of little benefit to you on the Earth. We could say the same with all of God's promises (healing, victory, prosperity, etc). Any you can stumble onto some feature of the iPhone and get something good out of it occasionally, but just because you have it, doesn't mean you're using it, or using it to it's full potential.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Or perhaps

 

 

 

GE, re Moses:

Re: Moses

The people of Israel were made slaves to the Egyptians as a new Pharaoh came into power who didn't know Joseph. Did God have a purpose for this? Yes. God's purpose was to show His glory to the nations, claim Israel as His own people, and plunder the Egyptians.

Moses was a murderer (Exodus 2:11-15) who fled Egypt to escape Pharaoh's wrath. Moses was a man who didn't speak well. Moses spent his "youth" or first 40 years as a prince. Moses then spent the next 40 years as a herdsman in the wilderness. At the age of 80, God saw fit to bless Moses into starting his life's work and being an instrument in God's plan for taking Israel out of Egypt. Moses was tasked with going back to Egypt where he was known as murderer. Yet God protected Moses and God showed His power through the plagues on Egypt.

 

Because of Moses's lack of faith (Numbers 20:2-13 and Deut. 32:51) in God Moses wasn't allowed to enter the promised land and died at the age of 120.

Moses life wasn't easy. Moses actually broke one of the very commandments that God gave him later on to teach Israel (You shall not murder). Moses was estranged from his family for many years, criticized by the world's most prominent ruler (Pharaoh), criticized by his own people (Israel), and made to wonder the wilderness for 40 years after being used by God to basically bring Egypt to it's knees. Yet God was with Moses and accomplished His purpose.

 

 

 

Now with respect to the slavery of Abraham's seed as spoken of in Genesis 15 when making the first everlasting Covenant:

Notice that God did NOT say that GOD would cause them to become slaves, He ANNOUNCED to Abraham what would happen, but He didn't cause it. So God did not purpose this, but rather promised He would deliver Abraham's seed OUT of Egypt, and with great spoil to boot (the lost wages on 400 years worth of wages for those 2 million people).

 

Moses could not enter into the Promised Land on account of unbelief; for God had said to SPEAK to the rock and Moses didn't believe God on that and instead chose (in frustration no doubt, for those people tried him sorely with their unbelief) to STRIKE the rock, and TWICE to boot, and so the people gave glory to Moses instead of God. And the root was unbelief that God could handle the situation (which is like 1 Peter 5:6-11 where care is shown to actually be a form of pride, saying God can't handle my situation, I'll have to take care of it, instead of casting that care over on Him).

 

I don't know what else you wanted me to respond to on that one...?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Or even

 

GE, I don't know what you mean by Josiah suffering?

 

You are saying that God caused his father to be an idol worshipper? Or didn't stop him from being one...? Not seeing the connections on this one.

[GoldenEagle]

I have split this topic... (again) in order not to derail this subject of suffering:

[GoldenEagle]

 

Or even

 

GE, I don't know what you mean by Josiah suffering?

 

You are saying that God caused his father to be an idol worshipper? Or didn't stop him from being one...? Not seeing the connections on this one.

 

 

I'd have to go back and double check for sure... I think the point of Josiah was in showing that God calls people to tasks that are bigger than they are... An 8 year old boy to lead the country and eventually find the book of the Law... To destroy all the idol worshiping in Israel.

 

 

Re: King Josiah

Josiah became king over Judah at the age of 8 after the murder of his father King Amon. It wasn't until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (Josiah was 26 at the time) that the temple priests (Hilikiah) were tasked with renovating the temple in Jerusalem.

...Keep in mind that the law was "lost" for at least 77 years.

 

It's late perhaps I can get to the rest (Moses and the other post) tomorrow.

 

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Before continuing on... It is getting really frustrating Rodain in addressing your posts because it seems you are using a shotgun type approach - you are all over the place, changing the subject, and adding new topics to the thread. A discussion is a lot more effective if it is focused more like a sniper rifle. It is also more effective to address point by point so posts don’t get too long, words/ideas aren’t misunderstood, or ideas/points aren’t overlooked. Just a few thoughts going forward.

Anyway, continuing on…
 

[GoldenEagle]

So by this logic, that whatever you see that anyone has said in the Word that that means that that is the Truth and God Himself vouches for it? (this is what I infer from your question in the Joseph thread).

 

If so, God has a lot to say about what Job's friends said, saying they were all wrong and that Job himself was wrong (though in being wrong he did not curse God, and therefore did not sin) and He would instruct them.

 

...

 

So trying to say that because Joseph said what he said, that God destroyed his life to save some gentiles (those outside the Covenant) is a joke and goes against the Covenant itself and is insulting to God for what God had said He would do for the seed of Abraham.

 

So to sum up, God did not bring upon Joseph what his brothers did. They acted out of hate and jealousy; Joseph was in the bloodline of Abraham and had the Blessing of Abraham, just as we do today; we aren't told what Joseph was saying during those times, but whatever he did say determined whether he lived or died (Proverbs 18:21) or had blessing or cursing (Deut 30:19 and Prov 18:21).

 

 

As to your question… Rodain: “So by this logic, that whatever you see that anyone has said in the Word that that means that that is the Truth and God Himself vouches for it? (this is what I infer from your question in the Joseph thread).”

 

What would make you think that Joseph wasn’t speaking the truth in the passage? Are you saying that his brothers didn’t mean to harm him and sell him into slavery? Are you saying that God didn’t allow this suffering in Joseph’s life to bring about save (physically) many people? If so, how do you come to these conclusions from the text? Sorry, I believe that is a very weak argument against the text in Genesis 50.

 

Genesis 50:15-21 with a focus on verse 20 -

20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

 

You said… Rodain: “So trying to say that because Joseph said what he said, that God destroyed his life to save some gentiles (those outside the Covenant) is a joke and goes against the Covenant itself and is insulting to God for what God had said He would do for the seed of Abraham.”

I didn’t say God destroyed Joseph’s life. You are making an assertion I didn’t make. Joseph had suffering in his life (11 years as a slave and/or prisoner) but God used that suffering to save (physically – food) not only Joseph’s family, the Egyptians, and all the nations surrounding Egypt. And on top of that Joseph’s family was given the best land in Egypt for herding animals.

You said… Rodain: “So to sum up, God did not bring upon Joseph what his brothers did. They acted out of hate and jealousy; Joseph was in the bloodline of Abraham and had the Blessing of Abraham, just as we do today; we aren't told what Joseph was saying during those times, but whatever he did say determined whether he lived or died (Proverbs 18:21) or had blessing or cursing (Deut 30:19 and Prov 18:21).”

 

God didn’t cause Joseph’s brothers to act in such a manner as to want to kill him or sell him into slavery. But God DID allow Joseph to be sold into slavery. Sometimes God allows us to go through trials and tribulations (storms or valleys in life) in order to build our character, conform us to Christ, and even do something amazing (in Joseph's case God miraculously made a slave the second most powerful man in the kingdom of Egypt). What do you mean by “we aren't told what Joseph was saying during those times”? What times are you referring to?

 

Please provide specific passages that somehow negate what Joseph said… Speaking in general terms doesn’t allow us to look at Scripture to see if what you’re saying lines up with Scripture and discuss it accordingly…

[GoldenEagle]

If so, God has a lot to say about what Job's friends said, saying they were all wrong and that Job himself was wrong (though in being wrong he did not curse God, and therefore did not sin) and He would instruct them.

 

There are many other places where someone says something that does not line up with what God actually has laid out/said/etc.

 

Eve said that God said not to even TOUCH the fruit, but notice God did not correct her, so now do we say God lied or made a mistake because He didn't correct her self-deception? Surely God was with Eve and Adam (He was in the sinless Garden with them).

 

Cain did the same thing, RIGHT TO GOD'S OWN FACE, and notice God leaves him in his own self-deception after he just made up a whole bunch of trash and lies about what God had said.

 

Re: Prov. 18:21 – The Proverbs are general wisdom sayings and not necessarily promises.

 

Re: Deut 30:19 – This passage in context is part of the law given to Israel regarding Israel’s relationship with God… An “If you do {x}, then {y} will happen…” kind of relationship. See Deut. 30:11-20

 

Re: Job’s friends – Yes they did indeed sin by accusing Job falsely and telling Job to give up and die. Which part of the book of Job are you referring to please?

Re: Eve’s comments – God told Adam not to eat the fruit. It can be inferred that Adam took it a step further and told his wife NOT to even touch it. Touching leads to wanting. Eve knew what she was supposed to do and did the exact opposite. God knew what was going on in the garden but the text doesn’t say that God was with Eve and Adam. Which part of Genesis 3 are you referring to please?

 

Re: Cain – What is this “same thing” you are claiming Cain said to God’s own face? Which part of Genesis 4 are you referring to please?