Reasons Why God Allows Suffering?

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Okay, so you got an answer to #1 (I will assume you lie in wait for me to answer this and then you will move on to the other 2...).

 

My response for Job is simple: God cannot lie. I will explain.

 

Firstly, realize that many words and expressions used in the KJ are not proper translations (examples: the Psalm that says God made man a little lower than the angels ACTUALLY reads God made man a little lower than Elohim, and Elohim is ONLY, 100% of the time, God Himself. So it reads that God made us only a little lower than Himself (we are higher than everyone and everything else), example #2, the word fear does not mean fear like we take it to mean today, as in "scared of God", it means literally to greatly respect, stand in awe of, but not have anything to do with being frightened of God; the word grace, while it IS written grace, means favor, literally, whereas the connotation today typically is that it has nothing to do with favor but is more of a "God allowed you to do/be/have something just barely by the skin of your teeth, but He's really disgusted with you" kind of meaning. There are many more examples, but these suffice at the moment.)

 

So when we open with Job, we see he is bound by a spirit of fear already, making sacrifices for his children because he is scared that they have cursed God in their hearts and departed from Him in their hearts. (now if God said to offer the sacrifices, that would be fine, but He did not, so its root is completely fear). And we know from various places in Proverbs that what we fear opens the door to the Devil to operate in your life; where it is written that your fears will come upon you - and Job later explains, behold the thing I feared greatly has come upon me.

 

Now when Satan comes to God, remember that God cannot lie. And when God asks Satan if he's seen Job, Satan gets ticked off royally that there is some kind of wall or hedge all around him and his stuff that he can't get by; he calls it the Blessing Wall. And it is a hedge of protection. However, Satan reveals how little he knows about this by complaining he can't get past it.

Now, again, God CANNOT lie, so He has to tell the truth - that Job has already let some part of that wall down through fear and Job is in his hand (the expression being like Psalm107:2 where God tells us we have been redeemed out of the hand of the enemy). And he tells Satan, behold, which means literally to go look and see (important to understand for when God tells Job to go behold the Behemoth (proving dragons/dinosaurs co-existed). So Job had already let that wall down through his fear - he was not in faith.

 

Fear opens the door for the Devil to act in your life, just the way faith opens the door for God to act in your life. It's black and white - blessing or cursing, death or life, sickness or healing, poverty or prosperity.

So no, God did not give permission to the Devil to kick the tar out of Job - Job and shortly thereafter his wife, opened that door for the Devil; God had nothing to do with it. Don't forget, when Satan asked to have Peter, Jesus did not give Peter to the Devil.

 

 

When Satan came to Eve, notice he asked her about God (instead of properly acknowledging Him as Lord God) and said you musn't eat any of it? What was Eve's response? She had deceived herself because she said, they weren't to eat it or even TOUCH it. Now God never said that, but notice He did not correct her. Why? Because she had deceived herself and God had to act according to her words. (Notice that this was NOT when sin occurred - but rather Adam is charged with the first sin and Eve had deceived herself).

Same with Cain, what did he say to God after God said what would happen to him? A bunch of stuff that God never said! He deceived himself into making up stuff that God never said, and then barfed it back onto God, when again, God never said that junk, Cain did, and he tried to make it seem that God did say those things.

And when the Pharisees came and said a whole bunch of nonsense about Jesus, in His presence, He didn't go out of His way to correct them, but let them go on in their self-deception. Same with Judas.

When Paul references various lies about God and His Word to the various churches, he will just say, well, if they don't get it, that's on them, may God make it plain to them, but he didn't spend any time trying to correct them. WHY? Because they had already deceived themselves and to try to correct them, they wouldn't receive it - it would be a waste of time.

 

So when some of the things are said in Job, such as God gives and God takes away, these are self-deceptions. God did not approve his saying these things (but it wasn't a sin, as we see with the example of Eve above). These were Job's sayings, not God's; they were his unknowing attempts at explaining what was happening to him; just as his friends were wrong about him too. None of them credited the Devil. They all credited God with the suffering.

 

Just like when Jesus came, WHAT was His reason for coming? God explains it in 1 John 3:8 To destroy the works of the Devil - because in destroying these, He destroys everything bad (all suffering/sin/disease/sickness/poverty/etc has its root in Satan).

 

So, with all that explained, you still have not provided the answer for #1.

"#1) *since God is not CAUSING it: How can God "allow" suffering (as in, saying "Yes, Satan, go do whatever you want to My children" that I just gave My Son for)? For in the Psalms David said that anyone not speaking up against someone sinning is guilty of the same sin in the eyes of God (and this is the root of why we have laws here like the getaway driver being charged with murder if the bank robber murdered someone even though he didn't do it himself); so with this, you would be accusing God by His own laws that HE is causing the suffering by "allowing" Satan to do it to you."

So what is the answer here? The real answer is that God is not causing or allowing suffering, but rather it is the Devil, operating solo, who does it all. (How could we say that God is working with the Devil to bust up His beloved children when 1 John 4:17 says that as He IS, so are WE in THIS world? Is Jesus the victim of a conspiracy between God and Satan to bust Him up with all kinds of suffering? Of course not, and according to that Scripture, neither are we).

 

We should move on to #2 also.

[GoldenEagle]

Actually TheCurseOfTheRodain brother I'd rather continue with #1. I’m in no hurry. And it’d be really good if we simply discussed one point and back our words with Scripture. Your post is very long. I will try to respond as best I can. To organize my thoughts I've labelled them alphabetically.

 

A. Understand too that to me this is not necessarily an argument from my perspective. In an argument there is a winner and a looser. Nor are the forums really purposeful for a lecture where there is a student/teacher. (However, the exception is the Study Group forum.) I much prefer to discuss things and particular Scripture for the sake of understanding various perspectives... This considering that we're both equals before God, at times may be a disagreement to what is truth, and at other times there is simply a difference of opinion. Do you see what I'm saying?

B. I quoted the NKJV. Not the KJV. But we can look at different versions if you'd like. I like the ESV and NASB as well. What is your version of preference?
 

C. You say… “So when we open with Job, we see he is bound by a spirit of fear already,” I disagree that Job was bound by a spirit of fear. To me Job was I would say reverent towards God out of love. Job also loved his children and so made sacrifices to God for their sins just in case. So I would say that Job’s motivation was love.

As we discover in Proverbs 9:10 from an examination of the Hebrew word yare’ ( or to fear), the idea of fear in Hebrew thought is connected with ahav (tor o love). In other words the command is to fear God with love not with dread or terror. For God is good. Would you agree?

 

Proverbs 9:10 (NJKV)

¹⁰ The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

 

1 John 4:18 also explains further that love casts out fear. Fear has to do with punishment and not worship.

 

1 john 4:18
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

 

D. You say: “So Job had already let that wall down through his fear - he was not in faith.” I believe there is no evidence in the passage that somehow Job had let down the hedge around him through giving into fear. Verse 8 says that there was none like Job on the earth: a man who was blameless, upright, who feared (reverenced) God, and didn’t indulge in evil. To give into fear would’ve been indulging in evil. Don't you think?

E. I don’t see where the text mentions this “Blessing wall” you speak of.

F. You say “So when some of the things are said in Job, such as God gives and God takes away, these are self-deceptions. God did not approve his saying these things (but it wasn't a sin, as we see with the example of Eve above).” If it was a self-deception to credit God with giving or taking away blessings it would be a sin. The issue I think was Job knew he didn’t deserve any of the blessings God had given him. (Btw, Eve did sin by disobeying God’s command given to her husband and listening to Satan through the snake.)

The specific detailed issues with Adam & Eve, Cain, Jesus & Pharisees, Paul can be discussed further. But why don’t we stick with Job for now.

G. You say “So what is the answer here? The real answer is that God is not causing or allowing suffering, but rather it is the Devil, operating solo, who does it all. (How could we say that God is working with the Devil to bust up His beloved children when 1 John 4:17 says that as He IS, so are WE in THIS world? Is Jesus the victim of a conspiracy between God and Satan to bust Him up with all kinds of suffering? Of course not, and according to that Scripture, neither are we). “ With this statement you don’t take into consideration personal accountability. The Devil tempts but we are also responsible for our actions/words and we’ll be held accountable for them. God indeed allowed Job to suffer here. To deny this would be to deny the text I believe.

 

See for example: Matt. 12:36, Rom. 14:12, 2 Cor. 5:10, Heb 4:13

Your thoughts?

God bless,

GE

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Hey GoldenEagle, I don't view conversing with my brothers or sisters as arguments where there is a "winner" - I speak because I am convinced that through what I am seeing the Scriptures say is true and indisputable, for after all, there is only 1 Truth, which is why it's called "The Truth" as opposed "The Truths". Things cannot be whatever someone wants them to be; there is only 1 Truth, and discovering and proving that is what I am after. For faith begins where the will of God is known. I "fight" you on this because I see people convinced that God doesn't want to heal them because they've been taught their suffering is a blessing from God and so they "learn" to live with it and they pass this on to their children and so on, until you have the Church at large today where virtually no one expects God to do anything from His Word and anyone who says otherwise is typically labeled as "weird" or cast out of the Church. So I do not like to see people convinced that God is making them suffer (I mean, if we really believe this, why did Jesus heal anyone? After all, if suffering is blessing, then Jesus is sinning by correcting the Father's will and healing them). So I'm not mad at you, I'm fed up with the suffering, I don't like to see people suffer, especially when Jesus went through what He went through at the cross in taking upon Himself every sickness and disease once and for all so that we don't ever have to put up with suffering/sickness/disease.

 

I like to see people get healed, and they can't have any faith to be healed if they think God sent them the suffering or stood back and in a secret deal with Satan, allowed Satan to afflict them to "bless" them (how can God be working with Satan - that's a house divided anyway). I've seen SO many Believers get their healings when they've understood these things.

 

And if what I said isn't true, then how do these people suddenly get healed of everything from brain tumors to colon cancer to lung cancer to fevers to headaches to torn ACLs to busted wrists to conjuntivitis to chronic knee pain to chronic severe spinal issues to shoulder issues to ingrown toenails to rotator cuff tears to severe chrone's disease, and the list goes on.

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

Okay, as for the sorting out of #1:

The Blessing Wall - Satan (look at multiple translations like KJ, NLT, LT, NIV, NAS, etc) describes that as far as he is concerned there is some kind of hedge/wall of blessing that surrounds Job and all he has.

Now you say, but God called Job righteous. Of course he was! But you know what? He also calls EVERY single Believer righteous too. Why? On account of their acceptance and belief in Jesus' blood as the Lamb of God which put them into the New Covenant. Now, according to Gal 3:13-14, every Believer has been bought back from the curse, and given the Blessing of Abraham (which includes a great deal of wealth in the form of gold and silver, amongst everything else physical) which is the Blessing of the Lord, which makes you rich, and apart from your toiling (Adam had to toil to extract a living from the soil - a big shock after living under the Blessing of the Lord in the Garden where he didn't have to toil).

Now if every Believer as God says, is righteous, being made the righteousness of God, then how come most Christians don't even have any idea about what the Blessing is, how to walk in it the same as Jesus and so forth?

They're all righteous, yet most have not a clue about it.

Same with tithing, most Christians cringe at the thought and refuse to do it, but yet, we're still all righteous.

Same with the grace/favor of God - most Christians have no idea how to activate that with their words and put it to work in their life, yet Paul constantly talked about it. And most Christians have no idea about that either and don't operate in it, missing out because no one teaches them.

Same with healing, same with tongues, same casting out demons, same with prosperity and sowing and reaping, same with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, same with _____ (fill in the blank).

And many Christians walk in fear (same as they can walk in lust, pride, envy, etc), cowed under the weight of something(s) they fear, not aware of what they're doing to themselves or how they are bringing that fear to pass, yet they're still all righteous in the eyes of the Father because of Jesus' sacrifice for us.

 

So we can see that even though all Christians are righteous, most do nothing after they come to Christ - they stop at the door, largely because no one is teaching them what is next, what else there is and how live victorious all the time, every day, in every way.

 

So using this criteria, that even though Job was righteous, he was not walking in the Blessing of the Lord as he ought to have been and there were cracks or portions not up, because of fear. "Thus did Job continually." - that shows how he WAS bound by a spirit of fear. You don't continually make sacrifices for all your children when God didn't tell you to do that if you aren't living in fear. So, even though fearful, still righteous.

 

I should add also, as in Romans 5, that righteousness is not your actions there, it is a state of existence. You have been MADE the righteousness of God. You cannot be made an action. I cannot be made a jump or a punch. My righteousness is of HIM, thus the Lord has said (Isaiah 54:17). It is not actions, it is a noun, a state of being. Just like sin is when it's mentioned in that chapter. So that no matter how much good I ever did as a sinner, it could never change my status as a sinner in the eyes of God, and conversely, no matter how much I have ever or will ever sin now, I cannot lose my righteousness - I am always righteous in the eyes of the Father. In the same way that actions did not make Abraham righteous, it was his faith in God. Actions can't get it, and actions can't keep it. The Devil can't steal it, diminish it, hide it, or do anything about it. And if you look at what made us sinners, it was Adam's sin, not OURS, and what made us righteous: Jesus' one act of righteousness. So in both cases, we did nothing to earn these states of existence. Enjoy your righteousness.

 

I'll stop here for now - I don't want the post to be the size of the Titanic.

[GoldenEagle]

Hey GoldenEagle, I don't view conversing with my brothers or sisters as arguments where there is a "winner" - I speak because I am convinced that through what I am seeing the Scriptures say is true and indisputable, for after all, there is only 1 Truth, which is why it's called "The Truth" as opposed "The Truths". Things cannot be whatever someone wants them to be; there is only 1 Truth, and discovering and proving that is what I am after. For faith begins where the will of God is known. I "fight" you on this because I see people convinced that God doesn't want to heal them because they've been taught their suffering is a blessing from God and so they "learn" to live with it and they pass this on to their children and so on, until you have the Church at large today where virtually no one expects God to do anything from His Word and anyone who says otherwise is typically labeled as "weird" or cast out of the Church. So I do not like to see people convinced that God is making them suffer (I mean, if we really believe this, why did Jesus heal anyone? After all, if suffering is blessing, then Jesus is sinning by correcting the Father's will and healing them). So I'm not mad at you, I'm fed up with the suffering, I don't like to see people suffer, especially when Jesus went through what He went through at the cross in taking upon Himself every sickness and disease once and for all so that we don't ever have to put up with suffering/sickness/disease.

 

I like to see people get healed, and they can't have any faith to be healed if they think God sent them the suffering or stood back and in a secret deal with Satan, allowed Satan to afflict them to "bless" them (how can God be working with Satan - that's a house divided anyway). I've seen SO many Believers get their healings when they've understood these things.

 

And if what I said isn't true, then how do these people suddenly get healed of everything from brain tumors to colon cancer to lung cancer to fevers to headaches to torn ACLs to busted wrists to conjuntivitis to chronic knee pain to chronic severe spinal issues to shoulder issues to ingrown toenails to rotator cuff tears to severe chrone's disease, and the list goes on.

Regarding there being only 1 truth... I'd agree to a certain degree.

However, there are some things Christians simply do not agree upon 100%.

Examples:

*Is there going to be a Rapture (and if so how will this happen? Pre, Mid, Post, and my personal favorite - Pro/Pan)

*Free will and/or predestination? (Armenian vs Calvin)

*Speaking in tongues: Personal prayer languages

*Church Leadership: Bishop/Pastor/Priest, Elder, Deacon - Women as teachers in the ministry

*Evolution, YEC, OEC

Do you see what I'm saying?

Jesus healed people so that they might believe in His works. Why? Because people wanted signs and wonders. This is what the Israelites expected

John 2:11

This, the first of his signs, Jesus did at Cana in Galilee, and manifested his glory. And his disciples believed in him.

John 4:48

So Jesus said to him, “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe.”

Regarding Lazarus's resurrection...

 

John 11:40-42

⁴⁰ Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?” ⁴¹ So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. ⁴² I knew that you always hear me, but I said this on account of the people standing around, that they may believe that you sent me.”

 

But bottom line we can and will experience suffering this side of eternity brother. But God is good, merciful, gracious, and gives us strength when we go through the storms of life.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Okay, as for the sorting out of #1:

The Blessing Wall - Satan (look at multiple translations like KJ, NLT, LT, NIV, NAS, etc) describes that as far as he is concerned there is some kind of hedge/wall of blessing that surrounds Job and all he has.

Now you say, but God called Job righteous. Of course he was! But you know what? He also calls EVERY single Believer righteous too. Why? On account of their acceptance and belief in Jesus' blood as the Lamb of God which put them into the New Covenant. Now, according to Gal 3:13-14, every Believer has been bought back from the curse, and given the Blessing of Abraham (which includes a great deal of wealth in the form of gold and silver, amongst everything else physical) which is the Blessing of the Lord, which makes you rich, and apart from your toiling (Adam had to toil to extract a living from the soil - a big shock after living under the Blessing of the Lord in the Garden where he didn't have to toil).

Now if every Believer as God says, is righteous, being made the righteousness of God, then how come most Christians don't even have any idea about what the Blessing is, how to walk in it the same as Jesus and so forth?

They're all righteous, yet most have not a clue about it.

Same with tithing, most Christians cringe at the thought and refuse to do it, but yet, we're still all righteous.

Same with the grace/favor of God - most Christians have no idea how to activate that with their words and put it to work in their life, yet Paul constantly talked about it. And most Christians have no idea about that either and don't operate in it, missing out because no one teaches them.

Same with healing, same with tongues, same casting out demons, same with prosperity and sowing and reaping, same with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, same with _____ (fill in the blank).

And many Christians walk in fear (same as they can walk in lust, pride, envy, etc), cowed under the weight of something(s) they fear, not aware of what they're doing to themselves or how they are bringing that fear to pass, yet they're still all righteous in the eyes of the Father because of Jesus' sacrifice for us.

 

So we can see that even though all Christians are righteous, most do nothing after they come to Christ - they stop at the door, largely because no one is teaching them what is next, what else there is and how live victorious all the time, every day, in every way.

 

So using this criteria, that even though Job was righteous, he was not walking in the Blessing of the Lord as he ought to have been and there were cracks or portions not up, because of fear. "Thus did Job continually." - that shows how he WAS bound by a spirit of fear. You don't continually make sacrifices for all your children when God didn't tell you to do that if you aren't living in fear. So, even though fearful, still righteous.

 

I should add also, as in Romans 5, that righteousness is not your actions there, it is a state of existence. You have been MADE the righteousness of God. You cannot be made an action. I cannot be made a jump or a punch. My righteousness is of HIM, thus the Lord has said (Isaiah 54:17). It is not actions, it is a noun, a state of being. Just like sin is when it's mentioned in that chapter. So that no matter how much good I ever did as a sinner, it could never change my status as a sinner in the eyes of God, and conversely, no matter how much I have ever or will ever sin now, I cannot lose my righteousness - I am always righteous in the eyes of the Father. In the same way that actions did not make Abraham righteous, it was his faith in God. Actions can't get it, and actions can't keep it. The Devil can't steal it, diminish it, hide it, or do anything about it. And if you look at what made us sinners, it was Adam's sin, not OURS, and what made us righteous: Jesus' one act of righteousness. So in both cases, we did nothing to earn these states of existence. Enjoy your righteousness.

 

I'll stop here for now - I don't want the post to be the size of the Titanic.

Thanks for the clarification re: blessing wall

You say "Now you say, but God called Job righteous. Of course he was! But you know what? He also calls EVERY single Believer righteous too. Why? On account of their acceptance and belief in Jesus' blood as the Lamb of God which put them into the New Covenant."

The reason why God called Job righteous was because of Job's faith in God, given by God, for God's glory. Remember there was no New Covenant, no promise of Messiah, no atonement of sin yet. So the sacrifices were righteous and done in faith. (Consider reading Hebrews 11

You say "the Blessing of Abraham (which includes a great deal of wealth in the form of gold and silver, amongst everything else physical)"

It's actually the blessing of God. Abraham wasn't around back then in the time of Job. Question: So do you believe that God heals all sickness and being a Believer is a guarantee of riches?

You say "So we can see that even though all Christians are righteous, most do nothing after they come to Christ"

That I believe is a generalization and a judgment that is pretty harsh. How do you know most Christians "do nothing" after they come to Christ?

Now back to the original passage we're discussing... Lol

Re: Job - Job was bound by his righteous believe in God. I think you're looking at the glass half empty here.

You say "You don't continually make sacrifices for all your children when God didn't tell you to do that if you aren't living in fear. So, even though fearful, still righteous."

Yet you are looking at things from a NT Christian perspective. Jesus Christ had not yet died for Job's sin. Making a sacrifice was a part of every day life prior to the ultimate sacrifice at the cross. So no, Job wasn't living in fear. His righteous faith in God drove him to seek to atone for his own sins and the sins of his children. You make that sound like a bad thing (living in fear) when in fact it was a good thing brother.

You say "I should add also, as in Romans 5, that righteousness is not your actions there, it is a state of existence. You have been MADE the righteousness of God."

On this we can agree.

A bit of a joke: Remember the Titanic sank. Lol

 

God bless,

GE

[TheCurseOfTheRodain]

 

Okay, as for the sorting out of #1:

The Blessing Wall - Satan (look at multiple translations like KJ, NLT, LT, NIV, NAS, etc) describes that as far as he is concerned there is some kind of hedge/wall of blessing that surrounds Job and all he has.

Now you say, but God called Job righteous. Of course he was! But you know what? He also calls EVERY single Believer righteous too. Why? On account of their acceptance and belief in Jesus' blood as the Lamb of God which put them into the New Covenant. Now, according to Gal 3:13-14, every Believer has been bought back from the curse, and given the Blessing of Abraham (which includes a great deal of wealth in the form of gold and silver, amongst everything else physical) which is the Blessing of the Lord, which makes you rich, and apart from your toiling (Adam had to toil to extract a living from the soil - a big shock after living under the Blessing of the Lord in the Garden where he didn't have to toil).

Now if every Believer as God says, is righteous, being made the righteousness of God, then how come most Christians don't even have any idea about what the Blessing is, how to walk in it the same as Jesus and so forth?

They're all righteous, yet most have not a clue about it.

Same with tithing, most Christians cringe at the thought and refuse to do it, but yet, we're still all righteous.

Same with the grace/favor of God - most Christians have no idea how to activate that with their words and put it to work in their life, yet Paul constantly talked about it. And most Christians have no idea about that either and don't operate in it, missing out because no one teaches them.

Same with healing, same with tongues, same casting out demons, same with prosperity and sowing and reaping, same with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, same with _____ (fill in the blank).

And many Christians walk in fear (same as they can walk in lust, pride, envy, etc), cowed under the weight of something(s) they fear, not aware of what they're doing to themselves or how they are bringing that fear to pass, yet they're still all righteous in the eyes of the Father because of Jesus' sacrifice for us.

 

So we can see that even though all Christians are righteous, most do nothing after they come to Christ - they stop at the door, largely because no one is teaching them what is next, what else there is and how live victorious all the time, every day, in every way.

 

So using this criteria, that even though Job was righteous, he was not walking in the Blessing of the Lord as he ought to have been and there were cracks or portions not up, because of fear. "Thus did Job continually." - that shows how he WAS bound by a spirit of fear. You don't continually make sacrifices for all your children when God didn't tell you to do that if you aren't living in fear. So, even though fearful, still righteous.

 

I should add also, as in Romans 5, that righteousness is not your actions there, it is a state of existence. You have been MADE the righteousness of God. You cannot be made an action. I cannot be made a jump or a punch. My righteousness is of HIM, thus the Lord has said (Isaiah 54:17). It is not actions, it is a noun, a state of being. Just like sin is when it's mentioned in that chapter. So that no matter how much good I ever did as a sinner, it could never change my status as a sinner in the eyes of God, and conversely, no matter how much I have ever or will ever sin now, I cannot lose my righteousness - I am always righteous in the eyes of the Father. In the same way that actions did not make Abraham righteous, it was his faith in God. Actions can't get it, and actions can't keep it. The Devil can't steal it, diminish it, hide it, or do anything about it. And if you look at what made us sinners, it was Adam's sin, not OURS, and what made us righteous: Jesus' one act of righteousness. So in both cases, we did nothing to earn these states of existence. Enjoy your righteousness.

 

I'll stop here for now - I don't want the post to be the size of the Titanic.

Thanks for the clarification re: blessing wall

You say "Now you say, but God called Job righteous. Of course he was! But you know what? He also calls EVERY single Believer righteous too. Why? On account of their acceptance and belief in Jesus' blood as the Lamb of God which put them into the New Covenant."

The reason why God called Job righteous was because of Job's faith in God, given by God, for God's glory. Remember there was no New Covenant, no promise of Messiah, no atonement of sin yet. So the sacrifices were righteous and done in faith. (Consider reading Hebrews 11

You say "the Blessing of Abraham (which includes a great deal of wealth in the form of gold and silver, amongst everything else physical)"

It's actually the blessing of God. Abraham wasn't around back then in the time of Job. Question: So do you believe that God heals all sickness and being a Believer is a guarantee of riches?

You say "So we can see that even though all Christians are righteous, most do nothing after they come to Christ"

That I believe is a generalization and a judgment that is pretty harsh. How do you know most Christians "do nothing" after they come to Christ?

Now back to the original passage we're discussing... Lol

Re: Job - Job was bound by his righteous believe in God. I think you're looking at the glass half empty here.

You say "You don't continually make sacrifices for all your children when God didn't tell you to do that if you aren't living in fear. So, even though fearful, still righteous."

Yet you are looking at things from a NT Christian perspective. Jesus Christ had not yet died for Job's sin. Making a sacrifice was a part of every day life prior to the ultimate sacrifice at the cross. So no, Job wasn't living in fear. His righteous faith in God drove him to seek to atone for his own sins and the sins of his children. You make that sound like a bad thing (living in fear) when in fact it was a good thing brother.

You say "I should add also, as in Romans 5, that righteousness is not your actions there, it is a state of existence. You have been MADE the righteousness of God."

On this we can agree.

A bit of a joke: Remember the Titanic sank. Lol

 

God bless,

GE

 

Hi GE,

 

For Job's sacrifices, it says he did them continually. God did not tell him to do that - they are well past the age of accountability; they live on their own with their own houses, they know what they are doing and are themselves accountable to God. I cannot tithe for you so that the Blessing can be emptied out on you and the windows of Heaven perpetually open for you. We as blood brothers of Jesus and each other have a closer bond spiritually than these guys did and if I can't tithe for you to get those things for you, and more, how can Job's sacrifices being offered for them do anything for them?

 

He offered them in fear besides - it says he feared they had cursed God and departed from Him in their hearts.

Fear is what opens the door for the Devil to act in your life just as faith is the mechanism by which to bring God's promises into your life. (It's actually just that fear is wicked faith and connects you with a dead spiritual overlord and faith is faith that connects you with the Living God).

 

The Blessing of Abraham is not my terminology. The Word uses it in Galatians 3:14, and it is the result of Gal 3:13. And you are right though - it is the Blessing of the Lord. There is only one Blessing, and it originates in Genesis 1:28, though Adam lost it, God kept the door open to be able to walk in it through the tithe (first seen in Able and Cain, though obviously taught to them by Adam and Eve), until Jesus could get it back legally permanently through the price He paid at the cross and He gave it to us and God calls it there the Blessing of Abraham.

Now why would God do that unless He wants us to look at how He blessed Abraham - ie what the results were of the Blessing in his life? Part of that WAS gold and silver in huge amounts, as well as maidservants, manservants, donkeys, camels, possessions, etc. Every person that is described as blessed in the Bible has huge assets and supernatural results in sowing and reaping.

 

Now for the statement that Jesus hadn't done what He did yet - Galatians 3 says that God did not judge anyone's sins before Jesus because He was looking forward to the time when Jesus would go to the cross; just as He now looks back at the cross for us.

 

Answer: yes, I believe God has healed every kind of sickness and disease and guarantees riches for every Believer. Now before you throw the stones, here is why: since we have the Blessing of Abraham, which is the Blessing, and which is the Blessing of the Lord (Proverbs 10:22 says the Blessing of the Lord maketh rich, and He adds no sorrow with it), and the word BLESSING means literally "to be empowered to prosper" and part of prosperity is most certainly MONEY - yes, conclusively, ALL Believers have ACCESS to these riches.

Notice I said access.

 

Access in the same way that the "radio wave of Salvation" has been broadcast to all mankind; yet even though it's been DONE for ALL mankind, it is not automatic - you have to CHOOSE to be saved and "receive it with your antenna of faith" (Romans 10:9-10).

Same with the Blessing being "emptied out" on you through bringing in all your tithes into God's storehouse (the Church) - EVERY Believer has equal access to this, but ONLY those who do it in faith get it, as well as having the Devourer (who is the Devil) rebuked for your sake so that he can't destroy/corrupt the fruits of your ground (the harvest on the seeds you sow (Mark 4:8, Gal 6:7-9, etc).

Same with tongues being available to ALL Believers from Jesus' own mouth in Mark 16:17 - there is no exemption for this for any Believer.

Same with the anointing to heal the sick being available to ALL Believers from Jesus' own mouth again in Mark 16:17-18.

The list goes on, but I will keep this short. But as you can see, nothing with God is automatic after having become a Believer - it's up to us what we do and receive and walk in.

 

Healing is the same, for it is written, "By His stripes you WERE HEALED." 1 Peter 2:24 (there are multiple others, but one is all we need). So either you haven't been healed already (to a state of being "The Healed" and the Devil is trying to steal your state of divine health and convince you are the sick trying to get healed) OR God is lying. It can't be both.

 

NOW, with alllllll of this said - I think I've keyed in one big misunderstanding, just judging by one of the last things you said, so I will state for the record: according to the Holy Bible, ALL sickness/disease/suffering/poverty/defeat/subjection to the kingdom of darkness/etc (literally everything that won't be in Heaven and wasn't in Eden) is NEVER God's will.

The source of it ALL is the Devil, who COMES to try to steal, kill and destroy. So whatever steals, kills or destroys is never sent to you of God. Does it come to you? YES, Jesus said in the world you SHALL have tribulation/trials/junk in John 16:33, and then He added a key word, BUT (in other words this but cancels out that tribulation), be of GOOD cheer, because I have overcome the world (the Amplified says He spoiled (completely removed) it of it's ability to harm you - which is what it means that He overcame it). In other words, it doesn't matter WHAT comes against you, God has already released the answer at the Cross and you don't have to accept what the Devil cooked up for you to eat - you eat the Word instead, and digest it and USE it. I hope that's clear.

 

And as for most Christians not doing much after getting saved - if most Christians DID much after getting saved we'd see an entirely different world. Statistically speaking, less than 20% of Believers tithe. Imagine what would happen if 80% tithed. Imagine how many hospitals and health insurance companies would shut if we all walked in Mark 16:17-18 (Jesus didn't exempt a single Believer from those 5 things). Imagine if we made policy for this country, the same as the Founding Fathers (98/100 were active Believers and had the policies of this country made directly from the Bible, specifially Deuteronomy), and ruled politics - be about 60 million more babies around, and GODLY laws. Imagine if WE made the entertainment for the world, or if treated marriage and sex with the same regard as Jesus. Or if we, instead of being talked out of prosperity and into poverty by the Devil, owned everything - all businesses would cater to the Church, as would all forms of everything (what do we think it will be like when we reign for 1,000 years on the Earth with Jesus)...The Church is waking up, just as America did December 7th, 1941.

[Guest DRS81]

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives

39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.
 

[GoldenEagle]

 

Hi GE,

 

For Job's sacrifices, it says he did them continually. God did not tell him to do that - they are well past the age of accountability; they live on their own with their own houses, they know what they are doing and are themselves accountable to God. I cannot tithe for you so that the Blessing can be emptied out on you and the windows of Heaven perpetually open for you. We as blood brothers of Jesus and each other have a closer bond spiritually than these guys did and if I can't tithe for you to get those things for you, and more, how can Job's sacrifices being offered for them do anything for them?

 

He offered them in fear besides - it says he feared they had cursed God and departed from Him in their hearts.

Fear is what opens the door for the Devil to act in your life just as faith is the mechanism by which to bring God's promises into your life. (It's actually just that fear is wicked faith and connects you with a dead spiritual overlord and faith is faith that connects you with the Living God).

 

The Blessing of Abraham is not my terminology. The Word uses it in Galatians 3:14, and it is the result of Gal 3:13. And you are right though - it is the Blessing of the Lord. There is only one Blessing, and it originates in Genesis 1:28, though Adam lost it, God kept the door open to be able to walk in it through the tithe (first seen in Able and Cain, though obviously taught to them by Adam and Eve), until Jesus could get it back legally permanently through the price He paid at the cross and He gave it to us and God calls it there the Blessing of Abraham.

Now why would God do that unless He wants us to look at how He blessed Abraham - ie what the results were of the Blessing in his life? Part of that WAS gold and silver in huge amounts, as well as maidservants, manservants, donkeys, camels, possessions, etc. Every person that is described as blessed in the Bible has huge assets and supernatural results in sowing and reaping.

 

Now for the statement that Jesus hadn't done what He did yet - Galatians 3 says that God did not judge anyone's sins before Jesus because He was looking forward to the time when Jesus would go to the cross; just as He now looks back at the cross for us.

 

Answer: yes, I believe God has healed every kind of sickness and disease and guarantees riches for every Believer. Now before you throw the stones, here is why: since we have the Blessing of Abraham, which is the Blessing, and which is the Blessing of the Lord (Proverbs 10:22 says the Blessing of the Lord maketh rich, and He adds no sorrow with it), and the word BLESSING means literally "to be empowered to prosper" and part of prosperity is most certainly MONEY - yes, conclusively, ALL Believers have ACCESS to these riches.

Notice I said access.

 

Access in the same way that the "radio wave of Salvation" has been broadcast to all mankind; yet even though it's been DONE for ALL mankind, it is not automatic - you have to CHOOSE to be saved and "receive it with your antenna of faith" (Romans 10:9-10).

Same with the Blessing being "emptied out" on you through bringing in all your tithes into God's storehouse (the Church) - EVERY Believer has equal access to this, but ONLY those who do it in faith get it, as well as having the Devourer (who is the Devil) rebuked for your sake so that he can't destroy/corrupt the fruits of your ground (the harvest on the seeds you sow (Mark 4:8, Gal 6:7-9, etc).

Same with tongues being available to ALL Believers from Jesus' own mouth in Mark 16:17 - there is no exemption for this for any Believer.

Same with the anointing to heal the sick being available to ALL Believers from Jesus' own mouth again in Mark 16:17-18.

The list goes on, but I will keep this short. But as you can see, nothing with God is automatic after having become a Believer - it's up to us what we do and receive and walk in.

 

Healing is the same, for it is written, "By His stripes you WERE HEALED." 1 Peter 2:24 (there are multiple others, but one is all we need). So either you haven't been healed already (to a state of being "The Healed" and the Devil is trying to steal your state of divine health and convince you are the sick trying to get healed) OR God is lying. It can't be both.

 

NOW, with alllllll of this said - I think I've keyed in one big misunderstanding, just judging by one of the last things you said, so I will state for the record: according to the Holy Bible, ALL sickness/disease/suffering/poverty/defeat/subjection to the kingdom of darkness/etc (literally everything that won't be in Heaven and wasn't in Eden) is NEVER God's will.

The source of it ALL is the Devil, who COMES to try to steal, kill and destroy. So whatever steals, kills or destroys is never sent to you of God. Does it come to you? YES, Jesus said in the world you SHALL have tribulation/trials/junk in John 16:33, and then He added a key word, BUT (in other words this but cancels out that tribulation), be of GOOD cheer, because I have overcome the world (the Amplified says He spoiled (completely removed) it of it's ability to harm you - which is what it means that He overcame it). In other words, it doesn't matter WHAT comes against you, God has already released the answer at the Cross and you don't have to accept what the Devil cooked up for you to eat - you eat the Word instead, and digest it and USE it. I hope that's clear.

 

And as for most Christians not doing much after getting saved - if most Christians DID much after getting saved we'd see an entirely different world. Statistically speaking, less than 20% of Believers tithe. Imagine what would happen if 80% tithed. Imagine how many hospitals and health insurance companies would shut if we all walked in Mark 16:17-18 (Jesus didn't exempt a single Believer from those 5 things). Imagine if we made policy for this country, the same as the Founding Fathers (98/100 were active Believers and had the policies of this country made directly from the Bible, specifially Deuteronomy), and ruled politics - be about 60 million more babies around, and GODLY laws. Imagine if WE made the entertainment for the world, or if treated marriage and sex with the same regard as Jesus. Or if we, instead of being talked out of prosperity and into poverty by the Devil, owned everything - all businesses would cater to the Church, as would all forms of everything (what do we think it will be like when we reign for 1,000 years on the Earth with Jesus)...The Church is waking up, just as America did December 7th, 1941.

 

Hey Rodain,

Interesting thoughts. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Like I said we in the Western culture in the 21^st century don’t really have the concept that fear (reverence) has to do with love. Those with experience (elderly and positions of authority) were reverenced. I think we’ll simply have to agree to disagree then on Job.

Prov. 1:7

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; fools despise wisdom and instruction.

 

God owns the cattle on a thousand hills. That doesn’t mean He will guarantee everyone has over 1000 heads of cattle.

Ps. 50:10

¹⁰ For every beast of the forest is mine,

    the cattle on a thousand hills.

The differentiation between access to salvation and access to riches, healing, speaking in tongues, etc. is very different. God give the chance for people to hear about Jesus Christ and the Gospel. God doesn’t promise (guarantee) everyone who follows Jesus will be rich, healed, speaking in tongues, etc.

Re: Tithing

You keep bringing up tithing… Regarding tithing I pretty much believe that is an OT principle given to Israel. I would say there’s a lot of Biblical backing for it being an OT principle given to Israel. Nowhere is the Christ-follower commanded to tithe. However, giving is a principle given to the Christ-follower and involves so much more than just 10% in my estimation. Of course that is a discussion for another thread.

Re: Blessings for the Believer

So I understand you… “The list goes on, but I will keep this short. But as you can see, nothing with God is automatic after having become a Believer - it's up to us what we do and receive and walk in.” God’s blessings are up to us to receive and walk in? In other words if we aren't blessed it is our own fault for not having the faith?

 

This is actually really important to understand where you’re coming from: Let me rephrase the question and ask you this… Do you believe God says no or wait to Believers? Or do you think He always says yes?

 

 

Please provide Biblical backing for this statement. Scripture references will do or if you’d rather quote specific passages for discussion. “I think I've keyed in one big misunderstanding, just judging by one of the last things you said, so I will state for the record: according to the Holy Bible, ALL sickness/disease/suffering/poverty/defeat/subjection to the kingdom of darkness/etc (literally everything that won't be in Heaven and wasn't in Eden) is NEVER God's will.” So are you saying that natural disasters, etc. are outside the scope of the power of God?

 

As far as this goes… “And as for most Christians not doing much after getting saved - if most Christians DID much after getting saved we'd see an entirely different world.” Why do you assume the world is going to get better considering there is sin and the enemies of God running rampart? Where is the Biblical evidence of this? Curious.

Regarding the rest of that paragraph what you’re speaking of is a theocracy. Unfortunately, this will not occur again until Christ returns a second time to judge and rule the nations. Indeed America was attacked on Dec. 7^th, 1941. It was a mobilization but not a spiritual awakening brother.

God bless,

GE

[GoldenEagle]

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives

39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.

 

Can you explain what you are trying to say here DRS81 with Luke 22:39-43 please?

 

God bless,

GE