JohnD Posted January 14, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 0 Topic Count: 908 Topics Per Day: 0.19 Content Count: 9,653 Content Per Day: 2.02 Reputation: 5,837 Days Won: 9 Joined: 04/07/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2014 Oh yes, rather than JW's and Mormons KEEP OUT signs... we should bone up on why we believe what we believe (apologetics) and put a JW's and Mormons WELCOME sign on our doors and say "Come in come in! We've been waiting for you..." when they come knocking. Trouble is they are afraid to return to my door after using the Bible to make them not-so-assured about what the were so assured about before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanLamb0986 Posted January 14, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) You can always spot a cult- there the ones that say they're the one true Church- JW's, Mormons, Oneness Pentecostals etc. I think to refute these cults, it's best to know a little about them. JW's deny the Trinity, believing the Father to be the only eternal person within the Godhead. JW'S believe Michael became Jesus, that Jesus is not God. The Father created the Son, and then they both created everything else. The Holy Spirit is a force, not a person. Jesus isn't pre-existent according to the Watchtower He apparently died on a stake, and was only resurrected spiritually, not physically.They also believe only 144,000 elders from the JW Kingdom Halls will reach Heaven, and the rest will live on Earth. They say Jesus, who was a perfect Man, died only to atone for the sin of Adam and that when we die, our death pays the penalty of our own sin. Firstly, if Jesus is not God, He probably was a lousy angel. An angel, as JWs claim Jesus was, is a messenger for God, who reveals a Truth while testifying of God. Angles have no authority in Heaven, and are totally subject to God. So can Jesus be an angel? No. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is eternal, and not created (John 1:1. Hebrews 13:8 states Jesus is unchanging, but all created beings change)Hebrews 13:8 also says that Jesus is the same forever. That which has a start point cannot be 'forever'. Once you have a beginning, you have an age, regardless of how old you are. If Jesus was created, He couldn't remain the same forever- forever denotes an eternal substance. Nowhere in the Bible does it teach that Jesus was an angel. I've never understood the concept of Jesus pre-existing as Michael, because Paul deliberately stated otherwise. To paraphrase Hebrews 1:5-8, Paul asks "has there ever been angel who is called the Son who was begotten from the Father? Has an angel ever been called by God to worship another angel?" Paul made the point that in Hebrews 1:6 that all angels must worship Jesus. Paul didn't say all 'other' angels. Jesus said that He was the Way to Heaven, the Judge of mankind, the utmost authority in Heaven and so on. If He wasn't God, then how can He judge mankind, and decide who enters eternity? Jesus died for the sins of all people, including those of future generations. In Matt 26:28, Jesus said that His blood is shed for many for the remission of sin. A JW will agree with this, but only of those who lived before Jesus, not after. In John 6:54, Jesus says that whoever does not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood has no life. Ask a JW, if Jesus' death is only for past generations, how could those already dead take part in communion? If Jesus wasn't raised in a physical body, why was Thomas able to touch Him, even to the point of inserting his hand into Jesus' side? In Jon 2:19, Jesus said 'destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.' JW'S believe in a spiritual, not physical resurrection. Why would Jesus say that He would raise His body in three days, if He only meant that His spirit would rise? Did Jesus lie? Did He fail to do it. If the Father is all powerful, why did He create the Son in order that they create the world together? If the Father alone is God, why did He need Jesus? The obvious answer is that the 'persons' of the Godhead are all eternal, and God can no more deny His nature than we can fly without a plane. The reason that Jesus was present an active at creation is because the Godhead was active and present. In John 15:13, Jesus said that He would perform the greatest act of love, and die for us. The problem for JW's is that they deny the deity of Christ. This means that someone other than God performed the greatest act of love. A common response from a JW is that God performed that act of love, because He sent Jesus to die for our sins. Is it really the greatest act of love to send someone else to die for people? Hardly. Jesus allowed people to worship Him continuously. He also said that He was glorified with the Father pre-creation, and will continue to be glorified. (John 17:5) To be glorified with the Father is not just a suggestion of sharing a place. Jesus was claiming that His glory was equal to that of the Father's. If Jesus' glory is less, then the Father can't glorify that which is less than Him. If the Holy Spirit isn't a person, how can He bear witness and testify about Jesus? (John 15:26). The same verse refers to the Spirit as 'He.' Since when were forces referred to in the masculine pronoun? In Acts 5:4, Peter rebukes Ananias for lying against the Holy Spirit. Peter clearly states that Ananias hadn't lied to a man, but to God. The NWT is quite scary when it comes to John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god." This verse clearly states that the Word was 'a' God. You should ask the JW's if the believe in two God's as this verse suggests? If they say no, then they must go on to agree that there's one God, and the Word was God. The NWT also claims that the Word became flesh. Since a JW's cannot believe in the existence of two God's they must agree that the Word is God, and the Word was flesh- Jesus. The claim that 144,000 go to Heaven is stupid. John 3:16 says 'whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." Why would this verse state that Salvation is all-inclusive but dependent on faith, if there's only room for 144,000. The verse says that the 144,000 are from the Tribes of Israel, 12000 from each tribe (Revelation 7:4).The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10;Romans 11:25-27), and their mission is to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ. JW's have predicted the Second Coming time and time again. Obviously they we're wrong. This included the years 1924, 1941, 1961, 1974 and so on. No less that 19 times has the Watchtower Society predicted the Second Coming. Ask a JW is they are God the Father, When they say 'no', you should ask them why they keep predicting the Second Coming, since Jesus said only the Father knew.(Matthew 24:36,) If JW's have a line to God, why did God allow there 'prophet' Charles Russell to make false predictions? The Bible says that if a prophet makes a false prophecy, he's not of God (Deuteronomy 18:21-22). Common sense says Charlie wasn't a Prophet. There's many ways to challenge a JW. Go slowly,remember that you're challenged the JW dogma in order to free them from it, not to condemn them by it. Make sure you're not shabby when it comes to your own Theology. If you want to discuss theology with a JW, ask him/her to raise there discrepancies with Christianity one at a time, then tackle them on at a time. Likewise you should bring up your issues with the Watchtower one at a time, and let him/her contemplate them carefully. It's important to know what you believe, or you may get confused. Also guide and correct in love, not to prove that you are saved and they are damned. God loves them as much as us. Edited January 14, 2014 by AlanLamb0986 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 21, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 21, 2014 Go ahead and add my church to the list because although we believe Christ is part of the Godhead and One with God and that he is God we also believe that he is Michael the archangel. I did a study on here years ago that I can find but I don't mind posting scripture as to why I know Jesus is Michael. My church is the Seventh-day Adventist church as most of you know. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 21, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 21, 2014 I looked up the word cult and it seems to include Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanLamb0986 Posted January 21, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2014 If Jesus is Michael, how do you explain Hebrews 1:5? Go ahead and add my church to the list because although we believe Christ is part of the Godhead and One with God and that he is God we also believe that he is Michael the archangel. I did a study on here years ago that I can find but I don't mind posting scripture as to why I know Jesus is Michael. My church is the Seventh-day Adventist church as most of you know. God bless. "For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God's angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” Paul clearly makes the distinction between the Son and the Angels. He asks 'has an angel every been worshiped?' No, because in Revelation the Angel was embarrassed by John trying to worship Him. Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10, where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. If Michael was Jesus, then he would be Lord, and wouldn't need to call on God to rebuke Satan, since he could do it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanLamb0986 Posted January 21, 2014 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 51 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted January 21, 2014 If Jesus is Michael, how do you explain: Go ahead and add my church to the list because although we believe Christ is part of the Godhead and One with God and that he is God we also believe that he is Michael the archangel. I did a study on here years ago that I can find but I don't mind posting scripture as to why I know Jesus is Michael. My church is the Seventh-day Adventist church as most of you know. God bless. "For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God's angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” Paul clearly makes the distinction between the Son and the Angels. He said clearly that no angel has been revered as the Son is, and he asks 'has an angel every been worshiped?' No, because in Revelation the Angel was embarrassed by John trying to worship Him. Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10, where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. If Michael was Jesus, then he would be Lord, and wouldn't need to call on God to rebuke Satan, since he could do it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 21, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 21, 2014 hi Alan, I'm in the midst of a snowstorm in ny and headed home. I promise to answer this question asap....God willing tonight. Take care and God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted January 22, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Share Posted January 22, 2014 Paul clearly makes the distinction between the Son and the Angels. He asks 'has an angel every been worshiped?' Amen. I have no problem with Paul. I agree that angels(created beings) don't receive worship. But could you tell me who this angel is in Judges 13? The reason I asked is because he seemed to have received worship. Also the angel in Exodus 3 that was in the burning bush. I would like to point out that just because I am bringing these scenarios up, please don't assume that I believe Christ is a created ministering being. Michael the archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10, where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. If Michael was Jesus, then he would be Lord, and wouldn't need to call on God to rebuke Satan, since he could do it himself At least you're honest about him being the only designated archangel in the bible. To answer your question about the rebuke, I have seen God do the same thing as Michael did in the book of Zechariah. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippie333 Posted January 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 15 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,236 Content Per Day: 0.29 Reputation: 673 Days Won: 1 Joined: 10/24/2012 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/18/1970 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Joshua is standing before the angel of the Lord. The term, "angel of the LORD" used in the O T is often seen as Christ. In this text without a doubt, it is the Lord that rebukes Satan. The Bible never refers to the Lord as the archangel Michael. Michael is never called "the angel of the LORD." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted January 23, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 23, 2014 Zechariah. 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?Remember that this is being written from the eyes of the witness. If Jesus was writing it, it may of read (2) And I said to Satan, I rebuke the ...The title Lord is used in different ways in scripture and is easy to misuse the term, one being a title of their master, a in Lord (add a persons last name), and the LORD, usually meaning Jesus.May I ask what scriptures you use to indicate that Jesus is Michael? This still is not clear to me. You said: Go ahead and add my church to the list because although we believe Christ is part of the Godhead and One with God and that he is God we also believe that he is Michael the archangel. I did a study on here years ago that I can find but I don't mind posting scripture as to why I know Jesus is Michael. My church is the Seventh-day Adventist church as most of you know. God bless. then you say: Amen. I have no problem with Paul. I agree that angels(created beings) don't receive worship. But could you tell me who this angel is in Judges 13? The reason I asked is because he seemed to have received worship. Also the angel in Exodus 3 that was in the burning bush. I would like to point out that just because I am bringing these scenarios up, please don't assume that I believe Christ is a created ministering being.What you seem to be saying is that Michael is not a created being, that He is part of the Godhead. Please explain ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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