The rapture: fact or mystery?

[Spock]

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matthew 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.

Since we have been justified through Christ, and since GOD sees us as without sin, why then would we have to go through the same judgments as those who have rejected Christ and the free offer of salvation. Think about it.

There isn't one thing on this post that would cause me to raise an eyebrow. Nice

Next....

The phrase "unscheduled secret event" should cause you to raise an eyebrow considering Paul wrote something that directly contradicts this.

 I Thessalonians  5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

And what was this day of the thief all about?

 Matthew 24:39  "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

Jesus gives the clearest depiction of the rapture and attaches the sign of the thief to it.  Paul tells us that this day should not surprise us because we are children of the light, no secret, no unscheduled event.  Jesus tells us precisely when it will happen in Revelation as well, making it a clearly scheduled event at a very specific time.

 Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

That's right- only a secret rapture can fulfill these words you quoted. Nothing else in my mind could do that.

Secret rapture to remove his bride, and then the time of Jacobs trouble will begin. The time God fulfills his destiny with ISRAEL.

 

I don't know how it can be a secret based on the scriptures, particularly since He announces when it happens, and since Paul says it won't be a surprise.

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

[wingnut-]

 

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

 

 

That doesn't explain the proclamation in Revelation 16:15 of precisely when He comes like a thief.  And considering that we were also given the information that the earth will go dark prior to it, I think we will know it is close.  Not the exact day or hour of course, but enough to not be surprised as Paul stated we would not be.

[Spock]

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

 

That doesn't explain the proclamation in Revelation 16:15 of precisely when He comes like a thief.  And considering that we were also given the information that the earth will go dark prior to it, I think we will know it is close.  Not the exact day or hour of course, but enough to not be surprised as Paul stated we would not be.

FYI, I do not see the rapture in Matt 24:29-31. I see the 2nd coming to planet earth to rule for 1000 years.

I do not believe 1 thess 4 talks about things going dark. There is a trumpet call and a shout but no darkness.

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

 

 

Is the rapture really going to take place or do all saints expect to enter the tribulation?

 

The rapture will take place one day, but nobody knows the day or hour but the Father.

 

Agree. This is why it has to occur before the 70th week of Daniel commences. Once the 70th week begins, you can pretty much narrow it down.

 

I didn't know you were a pre-tribber, Spock.  

 

Oh well, you'll find out the truth soon enough, as will many others.  I believe we are getting very close to the beginning of Daniel's 70th week.  If so, it will be interesting what you pre-tribbers think after the covenant is confirmed and you are still here.

 

Don't look now, but the pre-trib rapture will be the first theory to fall.

 

Cheers

 

I didn't know I was a pre tribber either. I am this week at least.

If i do witness the beginning of the 70th week, bring it on baby. I pray the Luke 21:36 prayer religiously and I will know my Saviors return is right at the doorstop. Of course I may have to witness the abomination but hey, I'm not looking for antichrist, rather I am looking for CHRIST!

Ya-hoooooooooooo. Come quickly lord Jesus!

 

 I don't want to see him either, but unfortunately, I believe we will most definitely see the abomination of desolation, maybe not up close and in person, but we'll see it on the news.

 

Cheers

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

 

That doesn't explain the proclamation in Revelation 16:15 of precisely when He comes like a thief.  And considering that we were also given the information that the earth will go dark prior to it, I think we will know it is close.  Not the exact day or hour of course, but enough to not be surprised as Paul stated we would not be.

 

FYI, I do not see the rapture in Matt 24:29-31.

 

 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but there are many clues after the angels gather the elect, so don't stop reading there.  Continue reading about being ready and all of the clues in the parables through Matt.25:30.  The second coming will be at the end of the age (Matt. 25:31-46), which is when the sheep (mortals) enter the millennium.  One thing we must remember here, is that Christ did not finish answering His disciples question about the sign of His coming and of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3) until He completes chapter 25. 

 

It is a grave mistake to conclude with His second coming in chapter 24. That's equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

 

Cheers

[Guest]

 

 

The Rapture is not another name for the Second Coming. As 1 Thes. 4:15-17 and John 14:1-3 explain, the Rapture is an unscheduled secret event where Jesus comes part way to Earth to meet His Church in the air and take us to be with Him where He now is. I say unscheduled and secret because its specific timing will remain unknown until it actually happens. On the other hand, The Second Coming is a scheduled public event where Jesus comes all the way to Earth with His Church to establish a Kingdom here. I say scheduled and public because the general time of His coming will be known on Earth over 3 1/2 years in advance, and public because everyone on Earth will be able to witness His arrival. Matthew 24:29-30 says it will happen shortly after the Great Tribulation has ended and all the nations will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds in the sky.

Since we have been justified through Christ, and since GOD sees us as without sin, why then would we have to go through the same judgments as those who have rejected Christ and the free offer of salvation. Think about it.

There isn't one thing on this post that would cause me to raise an eyebrow. Nice

Next....

 

The phrase "unscheduled secret event" should cause you to raise an eyebrow considering Paul wrote something that directly contradicts this.

 

I Thessalonians  5 Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, ² for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. ³ While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

⁴ But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.

 

And what was this day of the thief all about?

 

Matthew 24:39  "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. ⁴⁰ Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. ⁴¹ Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

⁴² “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. ⁴³ But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into.

 

Jesus gives the clearest depiction of the rapture and attaches the sign of the thief to it.  Paul tells us that this day should not surprise us because we are children of the light, no secret, no unscheduled event.  Jesus tells us precisely when it will happen in Revelation as well, making it a clearly scheduled event at a very specific time.

 

Revelation 16:¹⁵ “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

¹⁶ Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

 

1 Thes.5 :3 doesn’t say “the whole world” it just says “people”.  But if the Day of the Lord doesn’t begin suddenly, why did the Lord warn the Jews in Israel to flee for the mountains on the very day the anti-Christ stands in the Temple, not even stopping for their coats?  And to pray that nothing would prevent them from leaving, like winter or the Sabbath Day? (Matt. 24:15-21)  The first event of the Great Tribulation is so sudden that the Lord himself has to rescue the fleeing Jews as if from a flash flood. (Rev. 12: 13-17)

Matthew 24, when taken in context, is Christ speaking to the Apostles about the timing of the end times events. They knew nothing of the Rapture as the Lord never talked about it. Paul is the one who first taught it, and was supported by Jesus' brother James. So, Matthew 24 is about the Jews, not the Church, which is not mentioned because it is not present.

[Spock]

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

 

That doesn't explain the proclamation in Revelation 16:15 of precisely when He comes like a thief.  And considering that we were also given the information that the earth will go dark prior to it, I think we will know it is close.  Not the exact day or hour of course, but enough to not be surprised as Paul stated we would not be.

FYI, I do not see the rapture in Matt 24:29-31.

 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but there are many clues after the angels gather the elect, so don't stop reading there.  Continue reading about being ready and all of the clues in the parables through Matt.25:30.  The second coming will be at the end of the age (Matt. 25:31-46), which is when the sheep (mortals) enter the millennium.  One thing we must remember here, is that Christ did not finish answering His disciples question about the sign of His coming and of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3) until He completes chapter 25. 

 

It is a grave mistake to conclude with His second coming in chapter 24. That's equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

 

Cheers

You know I have great man love for you brother, but I do not see what you see in Matthew 24:29-31.

I see second coming, not rapture.

As you know, and like Parker alluded to, Matthew is predominantly written for the Jews. More OT quotes in this book than any other NT book (60 I believe, most from Isaiah). The entire chapter is basically talking about Jewish things or things pertaining to Israel.

I know you and others see the rapture there, but after many years of searching for the truth on this, I have to turn away from that interpretation and say, no, this is his second coming.

Thus, the sheep and goats judgment in 25 naturally occur after he arrives just before he sets us his millennial kingdom.

Anyhow, I have been known to flop on this issue so maybe next year I will be back in your camp. Lol

Always love reading your thoughts even when we disagree. You are an awesome gracious brother here.

Spock out

[rollinTHUNDER]

 

 

 

 

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

 

That doesn't explain the proclamation in Revelation 16:15 of precisely when He comes like a thief.  And considering that we were also given the information that the earth will go dark prior to it, I think we will know it is close.  Not the exact day or hour of course, but enough to not be surprised as Paul stated we would not be.

 

FYI, I do not see the rapture in Matt 24:29-31.

 

 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but there are many clues after the angels gather the elect, so don't stop reading there.  Continue reading about being ready and all of the clues in the parables through Matt.25:30.  The second coming will be at the end of the age (Matt. 25:31-46), which is when the sheep (mortals) enter the millennium.  One thing we must remember here, is that Christ did not finish answering His disciples question about the sign of His coming and of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3) until He completes chapter 25. 

 

It is a grave mistake to conclude with His second coming in chapter 24. That's equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

 

Cheers

 

You know I have great man love for you brother, but I do not see what you see in Matthew 24:29-31.

 

Have you ever done a side-by-side comparison of Matt. 24:31 and 1 Thes. 4:16-17? Both mention the great sound of the trumpet, a gathering in the clouds, and neither mentions an immediate return to earth or His feet touching down on the Mount of Olives.

 

I see second coming, not rapture.

I'd like to hear your take on the parables that follow, since they are included in Christ' answer about the sign of His coming. The parable of the fig tree relates to the generation that sees Israel's return back to their homeland.

Then He says that we must be ready, giving several clues in the following parables. If this was about the second coming, we would already be with Him, no need to be alert.

Then He says it will happen suddenly, when we least expect it? Again, if we were already raptured, this makes little sense also.

Then He mentions that it will be like it was in the days of Noah. Did the days of Noah relate to Christ coming? I can see a rescue (rapture) here, but nothing that even remotely resembles the coming of Christ.

Next we have two in the field, one is taken and the other left. If you think this is about the second coming, then I'd really like to see your explanation of this, because anyway you stack it will have holes, so I'll be waiting.

Then we come to the thief coming to break up the house, cutting it into two. From here He sheds light on His servants, one was faithful and will be greatly rewarded, but the other servant was evil or lazy and gets caught unaware of His masters' coming. How do you relate these servants to the second coming scenario?

He then goes straight into the parable of ten virgins and I'm sure you know that only five were ready when He comes, but how does this favor the second coming view?

And wait, there is still one more thing to account for here. Lastly, in the parable of talents, He gives talents to His servants and goes away for a long period of time. On His return He brings His reward for His servants. However, one gets punished and has his talent taken away and he is cast into the outer darkness, whereas the others get rewarded and enter into the joy of the Lord. How does this relate to the second coming?

All of these parables relate to and shed light upon the gathering of the elect.

Then after these, the parable of the sheep and goats are given to answer the tail-end of the disciples question about the sign of the end of the age (Matt.24:3), which is much more easily associated with the actual second coming.

 

As you know, and like Parker alluded to, Matthew is predominantly written for the Jews. More OT quotes in this book than any other NT book (60 I believe, most from Isaiah). The entire chapter is basically talking about Jewish things or things pertaining to Israel.

I hear people say that all the time, but no, I must reject this. He did not give His answer to national Israel. He had just departed the Temple and His disciples came to Him privately. He was alone with a few of His disciples, who asked Him about the Temple and the sign of His coming and the end of the age. These disciples were Jews, yes, but more importantly, they were the first men to be converted to Christianity. Because of these disciples, the Church was born. Furthermore, there is nothing mentioned here for the nation of Israel, only His servants and the remnant that will flee when they witness the abomination of desolation.

 

I know you and others see the rapture there, but after many years of searching for the truth on this, I have to turn away from that interpretation and say, no, this is his second coming.

Thus, the sheep and goats judgment in 25 naturally occur after he arrives just before he sets us his millennial kingdom.

Okay, we can agree that the sheep and goats are the sign of the end of the age, but we are not even close on the previous parables.

 

Anyhow, I have been known to flop on this issue so maybe next year I will be back in your camp. Lol

Always love reading your thoughts even when we disagree. You are an awesome gracious brother here.

Spock out

    That's okay, brother.  It's not important that we believe all the same things.  However, I do think it's important that we are all ready when the Bridegroom comes, so I feel led to share this with as many who will listen.  If nothing else, hopefully it will get people thinking, instead of just assuming one theory or another is the way it is without diligent study.

 

Thanks for being full of grace yourself.  It is very refreshing to see your replies to others.  Your humility really shines through and I'm glad you joined us.    

 

[Spock]

Of course it won't be a total surprise to the alert church, but we won't know the day or hour, so that makes it a secret.

Like you cited in Matthew 24, one will be taken....suddenly and quickly. I'm sure that person had "no idea" it would be today! Yikes!

Up up and away.

 

That doesn't explain the proclamation in Revelation 16:15 of precisely when He comes like a thief.  And considering that we were also given the information that the earth will go dark prior to it, I think we will know it is close.  Not the exact day or hour of course, but enough to not be surprised as Paul stated we would not be.

FYI, I do not see the rapture in Matt 24:29-31.

 

Matt. 24:29-31 is the rapture, but there are many clues after the angels gather the elect, so don't stop reading there.  Continue reading about being ready and all of the clues in the parables through Matt.25:30.  The second coming will be at the end of the age (Matt. 25:31-46), which is when the sheep (mortals) enter the millennium.  One thing we must remember here, is that Christ did not finish answering His disciples question about the sign of His coming and of the end of the age (Matt. 24:3) until He completes chapter 25. 

 

It is a grave mistake to conclude with His second coming in chapter 24. That's equivalent to throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

 

Cheers

You know I have great man love for you brother, but I do not see what you see in Matthew 24:29-31.

Have you ever done a side-by-side comparison of Matt. 24:31 and 1 Thes. 4:16-17? Both mention the great sound of the trumpet, a gathering in the clouds, and neither mentions an immediate return to earth or His feet touching down on the Mount of Olives.

 

I see second coming, not rapture.

I'd like to hear your take on the parables that follow, since they are included in Christ' answer about the sign of His coming. The parable of the fig tree relates to the generation that sees Israel's return back to their homeland.

Then He says that we must be ready, giving several clues in the following parables. If this was about the second coming, we would already be with Him, no need to be alert.

Then He says it will happen suddenly, when we least expect it? Again, if we were already raptured, this makes little sense also.

Then He mentions that it will be like it was in the days of Noah. Did the days of Noah relate to Christ coming? I can see a rescue (rapture) here, but nothing that even remotely resembles the coming of Christ.

Next we have two in the field, one is taken and the other left. If you think this is about the second coming, then I'd really like to see your explanation of this, because anyway you stack it will have holes, so I'll be waiting.

Then we come to the thief coming to break up the house, cutting it into two. From here He sheds light on His servants, one was faithful and will be greatly rewarded, but the other servant was evil or lazy and gets caught unaware of His masters' coming. How do you relate these servants to the second coming scenario?

He then goes straight into the parable of ten virgins and I'm sure you know that only five were ready when He comes, but how does this favor the second coming view?

And wait, there is still one more thing to account for here. Lastly, in the parable of talents, He gives talents to His servants and goes away for a long period of time. On His return He brings His reward for His servants. However, one gets punished and has his talent taken away and he is cast into the outer darkness, whereas the others get rewarded and enter into the joy of the Lord. How does this relate to the second coming?

All of these parables relate to and shed light upon the gathering of the elect.

Then after these, the parable of the sheep and goats are given to answer the tail-end of the disciples question about the sign of the end of the age (Matt.24:3), which is much more easily associated with the actual second coming.

 

As you know, and like Parker alluded to, Matthew is predominantly written for the Jews. More OT quotes in this book than any other NT book (60 I believe, most from Isaiah). The entire chapter is basically talking about Jewish things or things pertaining to Israel.

I hear people say that all the time, but no, I must reject this. He did not give His answer to national Israel. He had just departed the Temple and His disciples came to Him privately. He was alone with a few of His disciples, who asked Him about the Temple and the sign of His coming and the end of the age. These disciples were Jews, yes, but more importantly, they were the first men to be converted to Christianity. Because of these disciples, the Church was born. Furthermore, there is nothing mentioned here for the nation of Israel, only His servants and the remnant that will flee when they witness the abomination of desolation.

 

I know you and others see the rapture there, but after many years of searching for the truth on this, I have to turn away from that interpretation and say, no, this is his second coming.

Thus, the sheep and goats judgment in 25 naturally occur after he arrives just before he sets us his millennial kingdom.

Okay, we can agree that the sheep and goats are the sign of the end of the age, but we are not even close on the previous parables.

 

Anyhow, I have been known to flop on this issue so maybe next year I will be back in your camp. Lol

Always love reading your thoughts even when we disagree. You are an awesome gracious brother here.

Spock out

    That's okay, brother.  It's not important that we believe all the same things.  However, I do think it's important that we are all ready when the Bridegroom comes, so I feel led to share this with as many who will listen.  If nothing else, hopefully it will get people thinking, instead of just assuming one theory or another is the way it is without diligent study.

 

Thanks for being full of grace yourself.  It is very refreshing to see your replies to others.  Your humility really shines through and I'm glad you joined us.

Thank you for the very kind words. I'm not worthy, but I'll take them anyways.

I hate to do this to you, but here is an article I read a while back that influenced me greatly on how to interpret Matthew 24. It is long, so you may not be interested, but maybe on your next trip to the john, you might have some time while you are relaxing. Here it is-

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Hart-ADefenseoftheRapture.pdf

I will also look at what you asked me and try to respond. Right now I'm playing scrabble with my wife and my granddaughter should be walking in any minute so I am kind of busy. Like you, I hope the Super Bowl is entertaining more than who wins.

Spock out

[Guest]

Do people even bother to read some of the old conversations about the Olivet Discourse and it's parables? The same questions keep getting asked over and over; the same answers are given over and over, only to be ignored. I know that this site is large, but some effort is required if people really want to learn. No matter what your position, the information you seek is contained within the pages of this forum. These teachings, which links I will post, have been posted before and no matter whether you agree with the teacher or not, go a long way to answer the many questions that are being asked in this thread. Read them or not......your choice.

The Olivet Discourse; Understanding The Olivet Discourse Parables; The Three Questions of Matthew 24; The Olivet Discourse, Lukes Version.

If you cannot understand, throught the scriptures, that Matthew 24 is not about the Church and that Christ was talking about the Jews in the End Times, than you can never come to understand the End Times and who is there. You will never see the difference between the Bride of Christ and the Bridesmaids waiting outside the door.