nebula Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have repeatedly told you and others where I stood on so-called Lordship Salvation, which is what this thread has supposedly been about since post #1. This thread is not about me, or my beliefs. I am not on trial here -- Lordship Salvation is. Seriously. But we're also talking about what salvation is and is not ... ... salvation is not "faith plus," at least not according to the Apostle Paul who has already refuted what he believed wasn't true in his letter to the Galatians. Having begun in the Spirit, are we now perfected in the flesh? The truth is that for orthodox Christians, this is a rhetorical question! What could possibly be unclear about that? What is not clear is that it sounds as if you believe one does not need to confess that they have a sin problem. And also, you never explained what you do about Romans 10:9-10 mentioning the part about confessing Jesus as Lord. I myself am not talking about one having to instantly stop sinning, but about the simple confession that yes I am a sinner and I need you to save me from my sin (not just the final consequence, but that you are willing for Him to change you such that you are moving away from sin). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have repeatedly told you and others where I stood on so-called Lordship Salvation, which is what this thread has supposedly been about since post #1. This thread is not about me, or my beliefs. I am not on trial here -- Lordship Salvation is. Seriously. But we're also talking about what salvation is and is not ... ... salvation is not "faith plus," at least not according to the Apostle Paul who has already refuted what he believed wasn't true in his letter to the Galatians. Having begun in the Spirit, are we now perfected in the flesh? The truth is that for orthodox Christians, this is a rhetorical question! What could possibly be unclear about that? What is not clear is that it sounds as if you believe one does not need to confess that they have a sin problem. And also, you never explained what you do about Romans 10:9-10 mentioning the part about confessing Jesus as Lord. I myself am not talking about one having to instantly stop sinning, but about the simple confession that yes I am a sinner and I need you to save me from my sin (not just the final consequence, but that you are willing for Him to change you such that you are moving away from sin). I have heard the teaching the in order to be saved, one must admit to being a sinner, and some say one must confess all of their sins Yes, this is a little off topic. When I accepted Jesus, I was reading the NT testament, and I came to the conclusion that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. I also wondered how we missed it, when we, as a people, were waiting and watching for the Messiah, yet He had already come. I did not confess I was a sinner, nor was I confessing all of my sins. Given the common teaching in the church, I have thought about my own salvation. Looking back, I realized that what I did was move from unbelief to belief. Unbelief is a sin, and I was in unbelief of Who Jesus was, and I confessed my unbelief, because I now believed. Looking at the minimum required for salvation, one must believe. Have faith in Jesus completed work. I think each person will be different. For me, I read in the NT, that Jesus was claimed to be the Messiah, so the question became, was Jesus the Messiah or not. Christians have added to what is required at the moment of salvation, but since salvation is the work of God, and each persons previous understanding and history will mean a potentially different view to hook into Jesus, the minimum needed for salvation is often far less then a definition of theology suggests, when salvation in action occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have heard the teaching the in order to be saved, one must admit to being a sinner, and some say one must confess all of their sins Yes, this is a little off topic. When I accepted Jesus, I was reading the NT testament, and I came to the conclusion that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. I also wondered how we missed it, when we, as a people, were waiting and watching for the Messiah, yet He had already come. I did not confess I was a sinner, nor was I confessing all of my sins. Given the common teaching in the church, I have thought about my own salvation. Looking back, I realized that what I did was move from unbelief to belief. Unbelief is a sin, and I was in unbelief of Who Jesus was, and I confessed my unbelief, because I now believed. Looking at the minimum required for salvation, one must believe. Have faith in Jesus completed work. I think each person will be different. For me, I read in the NT, that Jesus was claimed to be the Messiah, so the question became, was Jesus the Messiah or not. Christians have added to what is required at the moment of salvation, but since salvation is the work of God, and each persons previous understanding and history will mean a potentially different view to hook into Jesus, the minimum needed for salvation is often far less then a definition of theology suggests, when salvation in action occurs. OK, but what does it mean to you to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldSchool2 Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 7 Topic Count: 701 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,511 Content Per Day: 1.34 Reputation: 1,759 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/16/2009 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/18/1955 Share Posted February 26, 2014 I have repeatedly told you and others where I stood on so-called Lordship Salvation, which is what this thread has supposedly been about since post #1.This thread is not about me, or my beliefs.I am not on trial here -- Lordship Salvation is.Seriously. But we're also talking about what salvation is and is not ...... salvation is not "faith plus," at least not according to the Apostle Paul who has already refuted what he believed wasn't true in his letter to the Galatians.Having begun in the Spirit, are we now perfected in the flesh? The truth is that for orthodox Christians, this is a rhetorical question!What could possibly be unclear about that? What is not clear is that it sounds as if you believe one does not need to confess that they have a sin problem ...Why would anyone come to Christianity if they didn't believe sin was a problem?Wouldn't they instead become a Buddhist where sin is considered to be just an illusion, or at worst, a "moral error"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 26, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Old School, all I am asking is that you clarify what you believe, yet you keep beating around the bush. I still don't understand why you won't speak about Romans10:9,10. Never mind, this is going nowhere. There's nothing here to speak about anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2014 I have heard the teaching the in order to be saved, one must admit to being a sinner, and some say one must confess all of their sins Yes, this is a little off topic. When I accepted Jesus, I was reading the NT testament, and I came to the conclusion that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah. I also wondered how we missed it, when we, as a people, were waiting and watching for the Messiah, yet He had already come. I did not confess I was a sinner, nor was I confessing all of my sins. Given the common teaching in the church, I have thought about my own salvation. Looking back, I realized that what I did was move from unbelief to belief. Unbelief is a sin, and I was in unbelief of Who Jesus was, and I confessed my unbelief, because I now believed. Looking at the minimum required for salvation, one must believe. Have faith in Jesus completed work. I think each person will be different. For me, I read in the NT, that Jesus was claimed to be the Messiah, so the question became, was Jesus the Messiah or not. Christians have added to what is required at the moment of salvation, but since salvation is the work of God, and each persons previous understanding and history will mean a potentially different view to hook into Jesus, the minimum needed for salvation is often far less then a definition of theology suggests, when salvation in action occurs. OK, but what does it mean to you to believe in Jesus as the Messiah. The OT established by prophesy, that God would send His Messiah. In the prophesies, it gives various things which will be true of the Messiah and if a person claims to be the Messiah but fails to live up to the prophesy, then they are not the Messiah. The Messiah would be born of a women, young maid (not married but of the age to marry and qualified so therefore a virgin), of the line of Abraham, Judah, David. etc etc etc. The Messiah would die for and from the sins of others while being innocent himself. The Messiah will teach and explain, expound on scripture. The Messiah will attract Gentiles. The Messiah will triumphantly defeat the enemies of Israel and vindicate Israel. So, if Jesus is the Messiah, which He is, and He will bring in a New Covenant which is not like the Mosaic covenant but not much more is given, and the Messiah will explain scripture accurately, accepting that Jesus is the Messiah, and then learning from and of Jesus, is being a disciple of Jesus. Having faith in Him. The actual understanding of everything else is NT, but at the time of Jesus, there was no NT, so, what did the first believers understand when they were saved? And what must a person believe and understand to receive the gift of salvation, which includes the Holy Spirit who is the teacher? My contention is that a person might be saved with far less understanding then some of Christianity assumes, but once saved, the person will learn the rest. I know people who were saved and later asked if Jesus was God. Once the scriptures were shown, they then realized that Jesus is God. They had no previous education which would have taught that Jesus is God, so at the point of salvation, it was not a concept they would have known or thought about. For me, I was reading the NT, but my view was that it was a Gentile anti-semitic book based on past experience but not knowing what was in it. I only read it so I would be a little familiar with what I thought most Gentiles believed. Very quickly, the NT uses common Jewish expressions, arguments, lifestyles and concerns. The questions introduced very quickly, is Jesus the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 27, 2014 My contention is that a person might be saved with far less understanding then some of Christianity assumes, but once saved, the person will learn the rest. True, but what you understood about Messiah is actually even more than the rudimentary understanding of sin and surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2014 My contention is that a person might be saved with far less understanding then some of Christianity assumes, but once saved, the person will learn the rest. True, but what you understood about Messiah is actually even more than the rudimentary understanding of sin and surrender. Interesting take. I had no real understanding of sin and surrender. I did not confess to sin or being a sinner, and that is the main issues presented by many Christians when they give the gospel presentation and question. That seems to be the measuring stick of some, but I know many Christians who did not come from a Christian style religion, who would flunk that 'test'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,232 Content Per Day: 7.98 Reputation: 21,485 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted February 27, 2014 My contention is that a person might be saved with far less understanding then some of Christianity assumes, but once saved, the person will learn the rest. True, but what you understood about Messiah is actually even more than the rudimentary understanding of sin and surrender. Interesting take. I had no real understanding of sin and surrender. I did not confess to sin or being a sinner, and that is the main issues presented by many Christians when they give the gospel presentation and question. That seems to be the measuring stick of some, but I know many Christians who did not come from a Christian style religion, who would flunk that 'test'.I do not wish to but in between you and Neby but to say this-> without the understanding of the worthless one cannotreceive the Object of New Birth which 'IS' the without end in value!2 Cor 7:1010 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.KJV According to God's Word there is no other path than this to salvation!Love, Steven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 27, 2014 My contention is that a person might be saved with far less understanding then some of Christianity assumes, but once saved, the person will learn the rest. True, but what you understood about Messiah is actually even more than the rudimentary understanding of sin and surrender. Interesting take. I had no real understanding of sin and surrender. I did not confess to sin or being a sinner, and that is the main issues presented by many Christians when they give the gospel presentation and question. That seems to be the measuring stick of some, but I know many Christians who did not come from a Christian style religion, who would flunk that 'test'. I do not wish to but in between you and Neby but to say this-> without the understanding of the worthless one cannot receive the Object of New Birth which 'IS' the without end in value!2 Cor 7:10 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. KJV According to God's Word there is no other path than this to salvation! Love, Steven Love, Steven There are many scripture verses which tell us the workings of salvation. Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: We are also told that there is only one way to God, and that is through Jesus. John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. So what is repentance? The Hebrew word is shuv, which means 'to turn'. So when God showed me that Jesus was the Messiah, I turned away from unbelief to Jesus Who is the Messiah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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