A little freaked out

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

 People keep mentioning the Nazarene doctrine of sanctification.....   I thought it might be a good thing to post it.

 

 

13. We believe that [entire] sanctification is [that] the [act] work of God[, subsequent to regeneration, by] which transforms believers into the likeness of Christ. It is wrought by God’s grace through the Holy Spirit in initial sanctification, or regeneration (simultaneous with justification), entire sanctification, and the continued perfecting work of the Holy Spirit culminating in glorification. In glorification we are fully conformed to the image of the Son.

We believe that entire sanctification is that act of God, subsequent to regeneration, by which believers are made free from original sin, or depravity, and brought into a state of entire devotement to God, and the holy obedience of love made perfect.

It is wrought by the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit, and comprehends in one experience the cleansing of the heart from sin and the abiding, indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, empowering the believer for life and service.

Entire sanctification is provided by the blood of Jesus, is wrought instantaneously by grace through faith, preceded by entire consecration; and to this work and state of grace the Holy Spirit bears witness.

This experience is also known by various terms representing its different phases, such as “Christian perfection,” “perfect love,” “heart purity,” “the baptism with or infilling of the Holy Spirit,” “the fullness of the blessing,” and “Christian holiness.”

 

 

Is it not a strange incense to believe in both

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

?

 

Of course none of the verses listed teach any such things.

 

 

Do you not believe that the 'old man' is dead? Or that we are new creations?   

 

What of this scripture?

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Again, entire sanctification is not sinless perfection. It is Gal 2:20. It is no longer being in Adam, but now being in Messiah.

 

But friend, your vss do say,

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Constant faith is required to realize the ideal of Christ living in me -- that is abiding in Christ.  The Chr life is like Peter walking on the waves.

 

Dead does not mean non-existent.  Death is a separation.  When Christ died, He took everyone who has been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ with Him.  This is not a special thing for an elite "sanctified" group.  All Christians enjoy this baptism (1 Cor 12:13).

 

Christians are new creations. And we are told to know no man after the flesh in effect.  But the Old Man remains, exerting his opinion.  The flesh won't keep its mouth shut.  In many ways we all stumble (James).

 

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves & the truth is not in us.  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit & the Spirit against the flesh -- this is a continuing process.

 

Do you mind my asking where you would go if you died tonight & how you know?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

Is it not a strange incense to believe in both

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

?

 

Of course none of the verses listed teach any such things.

 

 

Do you not believe that the 'old man' is dead? Or that we are new creations?   

 

What of this scripture?

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Again, entire sanctification is not sinless perfection. It is Gal 2:20. It is no longer being in Adam, but now being in Messiah.

 

But friend, your vss do say,

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Constant faith is required to realize the ideal of Christ living in me -- that is abiding in Christ.  The Chr life is like Peter walking on the waves.

 

Dead does not mean non-existent.  Death is a separation.  When Christ died, He took everyone who has been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ with Him.  This is not a special thing for an elite "sanctified" group.  All Christians enjoy this baptism (1 Cor 12:13).

 

Christians are new creations. And we are told to know no man after the flesh in effect.  But the Old Man remains, exerting his opinion.  The flesh won't keep its mouth shut.  In many ways we all stumble (James).

 

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves & the truth is not in us.  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit & the Spirit against the flesh -- this is a continuing process.

 

Do you mind my asking where you would go if you died tonight & how you know?

 

 

To answer you last question, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. How do I know? I have been born again, and His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit.

 

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

 

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.  

 

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

I also believe there is continuing sanctification, which is obvious in scripture also, but more people emphasize continuing sanctification and ignore entire sanctification. Without both, people tend to be trying to do what God has already accomplished in entire sanctification.

[enoob57]

To answer you last question, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. How do I know? I have been born again, and His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit.

 

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

 

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.  

 

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

I also believe there is continuing sanctification, which is obvious in scripture also, but more people emphasize continuing sanctification and ignore entire sanctification. Without both, people tend to be trying to do what God has already accomplished in entire sanctification.

As this is my present state of being as the blue is Me born again and the Seal of

The Holy Spirit of God I am kept in that birth- untouchable

John 10:28-30

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,

neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father,

which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to

pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

KJV

Rom 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels,

nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to

separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

KJV

the soul: my mind, will, emotion now

has two portals in which to view things from either through the body and world

from past learning or inner man of Spirit and Word to what really 'IS'...

this is the renewing of the mind

Rom 12:2

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the

renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable,

and perfect, will of God.

KJV

As we in obedience exist here in the world but living in the light of where we

truly are in the Heavenlies

Col 3 all

it is accomplished by our focus of obedience to Him no matter what comes against us

here... Love, Steven

[EnochBethany]

 

 

 

 

Is it not a strange incense to believe in both

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

?

 

Of course none of the verses listed teach any such things.

 

 

Do you not believe that the 'old man' is dead? Or that we are new creations?   

 

What of this scripture?

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Again, entire sanctification is not sinless perfection. It is Gal 2:20. It is no longer being in Adam, but now being in Messiah.

 

But friend, your vss do say,

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Constant faith is required to realize the ideal of Christ living in me -- that is abiding in Christ.  The Chr life is like Peter walking on the waves.

 

Dead does not mean non-existent.  Death is a separation.  When Christ died, He took everyone who has been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ with Him.  This is not a special thing for an elite "sanctified" group.  All Christians enjoy this baptism (1 Cor 12:13).

 

Christians are new creations. And we are told to know no man after the flesh in effect.  But the Old Man remains, exerting his opinion.  The flesh won't keep its mouth shut.  In many ways we all stumble (James).

 

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves & the truth is not in us.  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit & the Spirit against the flesh -- this is a continuing process.

 

Do you mind my asking where you would go if you died tonight & how you know?

 

 

To answer you last question, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. How do I know? I have been born again, and His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit.

 

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

 

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.  

 

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

I also believe there is continuing sanctification, which is obvious in scripture also, but more people emphasize continuing sanctification and ignore entire sanctification. Without both, people tend to be trying to do what God has already accomplished in entire sanctification.

 

None of your verse state either

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

You have to prove your claims from the Bible.

 

Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

 

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

[Qnts2]

 

 

 

 

 

Is it not a strange incense to believe in both

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

?

 

Of course none of the verses listed teach any such things.

 

 

Do you not believe that the 'old man' is dead? Or that we are new creations?   

 

What of this scripture?

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Again, entire sanctification is not sinless perfection. It is Gal 2:20. It is no longer being in Adam, but now being in Messiah.

 

But friend, your vss do say,

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

 

Constant faith is required to realize the ideal of Christ living in me -- that is abiding in Christ.  The Chr life is like Peter walking on the waves.

 

Dead does not mean non-existent.  Death is a separation.  When Christ died, He took everyone who has been baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ with Him.  This is not a special thing for an elite "sanctified" group.  All Christians enjoy this baptism (1 Cor 12:13).

 

Christians are new creations. And we are told to know no man after the flesh in effect.  But the Old Man remains, exerting his opinion.  The flesh won't keep its mouth shut.  In many ways we all stumble (James).

 

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves & the truth is not in us.  The flesh lusts vs the Spirit & the Spirit against the flesh -- this is a continuing process.

 

Do you mind my asking where you would go if you died tonight & how you know?

 

 

To answer you last question, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. How do I know? I have been born again, and His Spirit bears witness with my Spirit.

 

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

 

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.  

 

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

I also believe there is continuing sanctification, which is obvious in scripture also, but more people emphasize continuing sanctification and ignore entire sanctification. Without both, people tend to be trying to do what God has already accomplished in entire sanctification.

 

None of your verse state either

 

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

You have to prove your claims from the Bible.

 

Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

 

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

 

For the last question, the reason I will be let in is because of Jesus complete work.

 

Without going ino the 'sin nature', sanctification means separation for a purpose. In the Temple there were vessels which were sanctified, separated for use of honoring God in the Temple. Identical vessels could have been made, but they were not sanctified, so there was nothing special about the vessels. What made them special was God. They had been separated, sanctified, for Gods purposes.

 

Entire sanctification is separating people for Gods purposes. Sanctification means we are now new creations, no longer in Adam, but made new, sanctified for Gods purposes. This is done at salvation by God, with no work of our own. We were not partially sanctified. We were entirely sanctified for Gods purposes and we can not add to or take away from our new position.

 

Since that is a part of what God does in order to save us, there is no work, nothing, that we do to earn it.

 

At this point I have given a verse saying that the old man is dead, co-crucified with Jesus. That we no longer live, Jesus lives in us. That we are new creations, which includes the old having past away.

 

Romans 6:6

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

 

Gal 2:20

I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

    

 

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

 

So far that is three verses.

 

Here is a new one, which says we are sanctified. Note, the tense in the following verse. It is not future, but now. We are sanctified:

 

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

 

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

 

The following verse is really quite mind blowing: 

 

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

Yes, that verse actually says God has perfected those who are sanctified. Perfected means to be made whole. How were we made whole? The old man is dead and we are now new creations, made whole. Jesus lives in those who are born again, those who have received salvation.

 

 

.

[EnochBethany]

But friend, your vss do say,

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also
2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

None of my vss say that at all.

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.

 

And thus it has nothing to do with a special category of elite Christians who have been "sanctified."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

It is called positional based on the fact that it is due to being in Christ.  It is true, just as our being raised with Christ is also true, & our being seated on the right hand of God in Christ is true.  All these things that are true of our Head are true of all Christians.  But our condition is that we have not yet been raised from the dead.



Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

For the last question, the reason I will be let in is because of Jesus complete work.

 

Are you saying that because Christ paid for your sins on the cross, you should be forgiven & let in?

Without going ino the 'sin nature', sanctification means separation for a purpose. In the Temple there were vessels which were sanctified, separated for use of honoring God in the Temple. Identical vessels could have been made, but they were not sanctified, so there was nothing special about the vessels. What made them special was God. They had been separated, sanctified, for Gods purposes.

 

And they were not morally righteous, as inanimate objects.

Entire sanctification is separating people for Gods purposes. Sanctification means we are now new creations, no longer in Adam, but made new, sanctified for Gods purposes. This is done at salvation by God, with no work of our own. We were not partially sanctified. We were entirely sanctified for Gods purposes and we can not add to or take away from our new position.

Since that is a part of what God does in order to save us, there is no work, nothing, that we do to earn it.

 

Indeed true.

At this point I have given a verse saying that the old man is dead, co-crucified with Jesus. That we no longer live, Jesus lives in us. That we are new creations, which includes the old having past away.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

So far that is three verses.

Here is a new one, which says we are sanctified. Note, the tense in the following verse. It is not future, but now. We are sanctified:

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The following verse is really quite mind blowing:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, that verse actually says God has perfected those who are sanctified. Perfected means to be made whole. How were we made whole? The old man is dead and we are now new creations, made whole. Jesus lives in those who are born again, those who have received salvation.

 

Great truths.  But what does this have to do with the theories that

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also
2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

I was arguing against those 2 claims.  Now I am confused.  You reject them too?

[Qnts2]

But friend, your vss do say,

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

None of my vss say that at all.

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.

 

And thus it has nothing to do with a special category of elite Christians who have been "sanctified."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

It is called positional based on the fact that it is due to being in Christ.  It is true, just as our being raised with Christ is also true, & our being seated on the right hand of God in Christ is true.  All these things that are true of our Head are true of all Christians.  But our condition is that we have not yet been raised from the dead.

Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

For the last question, the reason I will be let in is because of Jesus complete work.

 

Are you saying that because Christ paid for your sins on the cross, you should be forgiven & let in?

Without going ino the 'sin nature', sanctification means separation for a purpose. In the Temple there were vessels which were sanctified, separated for use of honoring God in the Temple. Identical vessels could have been made, but they were not sanctified, so there was nothing special about the vessels. What made them special was God. They had been separated, sanctified, for Gods purposes.

 

And they were not morally righteous, as inanimate objects.

Entire sanctification is separating people for Gods purposes. Sanctification means we are now new creations, no longer in Adam, but made new, sanctified for Gods purposes. This is done at salvation by God, with no work of our own. We were not partially sanctified. We were entirely sanctified for Gods purposes and we can not add to or take away from our new position.

Since that is a part of what God does in order to save us, there is no work, nothing, that we do to earn it.

 

Indeed true.

At this point I have given a verse saying that the old man is dead, co-crucified with Jesus. That we no longer live, Jesus lives in us. That we are new creations, which includes the old having past away.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

So far that is three verses.

Here is a new one, which says we are sanctified. Note, the tense in the following verse. It is not future, but now. We are sanctified:

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The following verse is really quite mind blowing:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, that verse actually says God has perfected those who are sanctified. Perfected means to be made whole. How were we made whole? The old man is dead and we are now new creations, made whole. Jesus lives in those who are born again, those who have received salvation.

 

Great truths.  But what does this have to do with the theories that

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

I was arguing against those 2 claims.  Now I am confused.  You reject them too?

 

The NT gives no indication that entire sanctification which we receive at salvation is in the future. The verses I gave are in the present tense. It is true of us now. We are new creations now. Our old man was crucified with Jesus. We are separated (sanctified) for Gods use and purposes right now.  Repeatedly scripture speaks of sanctification in the present tense, so moving that to the future alters plain scripture.

 

As far as the sin nature, the only translation which uses that term is the NIV. No other translation speaks about a sin nature. What you are supporting is a dual nature. A person can not be in Adam and in Jesus at the same time. It is one or the other. The sin nature is the Adamic nature.  A person can not be a son of the devil and a son of God at the same time.

 

As far as a person who is saved ending up in the lake of fire, that is impossible and unscriptural.  Entering into a discussion about eternal security is definitely off topic for this thread, so if you want that discussion, I would suggest you start a new thread.      

[Qnts2]

I'll just add one more verse and leave it at that.

 

The book of Jude 1:1 -

  Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

 

The book of Jude is addressed to Christians, those that are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus, and called. It is not addressed to those who do not meet this criteria. So, it is up to each of us to decide if the book of Jude is addressed to us. Do we qualify? 

[EnochBethany]

 

But friend, your vss do say,

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

None of my vss say that at all.

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.

 

And thus it has nothing to do with a special category of elite Christians who have been "sanctified."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

It is called positional based on the fact that it is due to being in Christ.  It is true, just as our being raised with Christ is also true, & our being seated on the right hand of God in Christ is true.  All these things that are true of our Head are true of all Christians.  But our condition is that we have not yet been raised from the dead.

Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

For the last question, the reason I will be let in is because of Jesus complete work.

 

Are you saying that because Christ paid for your sins on the cross, you should be forgiven & let in?

Without going ino the 'sin nature', sanctification means separation for a purpose. In the Temple there were vessels which were sanctified, separated for use of honoring God in the Temple. Identical vessels could have been made, but they were not sanctified, so there was nothing special about the vessels. What made them special was God. They had been separated, sanctified, for Gods purposes.

 

And they were not morally righteous, as inanimate objects.

Entire sanctification is separating people for Gods purposes. Sanctification means we are now new creations, no longer in Adam, but made new, sanctified for Gods purposes. This is done at salvation by God, with no work of our own. We were not partially sanctified. We were entirely sanctified for Gods purposes and we can not add to or take away from our new position.

Since that is a part of what God does in order to save us, there is no work, nothing, that we do to earn it.

 

Indeed true.

At this point I have given a verse saying that the old man is dead, co-crucified with Jesus. That we no longer live, Jesus lives in us. That we are new creations, which includes the old having past away.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

So far that is three verses.

Here is a new one, which says we are sanctified. Note, the tense in the following verse. It is not future, but now. We are sanctified:

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The following verse is really quite mind blowing:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, that verse actually says God has perfected those who are sanctified. Perfected means to be made whole. How were we made whole? The old man is dead and we are now new creations, made whole. Jesus lives in those who are born again, those who have received salvation.

 

Great truths.  But what does this have to do with the theories that

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

I was arguing against those 2 claims.  Now I am confused.  You reject them too?

 

The NT gives no indication that entire sanctification which we receive at salvation is in the future. The verses I gave are in the present tense. It is true of us now. We are new creations now. Our old man was crucified with Jesus. We are separated (sanctified) for Gods use and purposes right now.  Repeatedly scripture speaks of sanctification in the present tense, so moving that to the future alters plain scripture.

 

As far as the sin nature, the only translation which uses that term is the NIV. No other translation speaks about a sin nature. What you are supporting is a dual nature. A person can not be in Adam and in Jesus at the same time. It is one or the other. The sin nature is the Adamic nature.  A person can not be a son of the devil and a son of God at the same time.

 

As far as a person who is saved ending up in the lake of fire, that is impossible and unscriptural.  Entering into a discussion about eternal security is definitely off topic for this thread, so if you want that discussion, I would suggest you start a new thread.      

 

I confess to being confused as to what position you are defending. I thought you were defending the theological position that there is a 2nd blessing sanctification in this life in which the sin nature is eradicated, while also holding that such persons can end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

"Take away our bent to sinning,

Alpha & Omega be." Wesley

 

Maybe we are talking past each other.

 

Sanctification is presented in the Bible as past, present, progressive, & future.  I don't have the ambition at the moment to quote you all the scripture.  You can check a concordance & draw your own conclusions.  I can't believe that you don't think Christians can sin as totally sanctified when they are born again saved.

 

I spent many years studying the doctrine of Flesh, which occurs mostly in Paul's writings, sarx.  I came to the conclusion that it means the Old Human Adamic nature and the same thing as the Old Man.  I could not find any mutually exclusive characteristics between flesh & Old Man.  Both the flesh & the Old Man are said to have been virtually crucified.  But dead does not mean non-existent.  The flesh lusts (expresses strong desires) vs the Spirit & vice versa.  This is true of all Chrstians & cannot be escaped in this life.

 

I would not put "human nature" in a translation, since that is too interpretive.  The "human nature" interpretation of flesh is not a new interpretation; it has a long history.  IMHO, you either must interpret sarx (when it is responsible for sin) as the human nature, or as physical tissue (the body).   And I find the latter interpretation impossible.  Note that the works of the flesh are not all physical.

 

I am afraid that it would take me a lot of ink here to present my conclusions on this subject & defend them. 

 

The clearest passages I know of are Romans 6:18-19

 

Ἀνθρώπινον λέγω διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν.

the -in (-inos) suffix denotes adjective of material, only here the material is man-material.

 

and in  Ephesians 2:

 

the spirit that now works in

the sons of [expession denoting nature] disobedience;  among whom we also all once lived in

the lusts of our flesh, doing

the desires of the flesh even of the 

mind, and were

by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

Have you heard of "the mind of the flesh"?

The mind of the flesh is enmity vs. God.

 

Note that in the past tense Christians crucified the flesh; but despite this crucifixion (death) the flesh still exists as an active force for evil -- the death of the Old Man & of the flesh is the same, due to Christ's crucifixion & our inclusion in His death.  There is no more ground to teach the annihilation of the Old Man than of the flesh; which certainly is not annihilated!

 

 But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.  18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.  19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,  20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions,  parties,  21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I  forewarn you, even as I did  forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.  24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

 

Compare:

 our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

 

Ephesians:  But ye did not so learn Christ;  21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus:  22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt [right now the Old Man is active!] after the lusts of deceit;  23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

 

 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Rom 13

 

In Eph it is new man vs old man;

In Rom 13 it is Christ vs flesh.

 

The parallelism between Old Man & flesh is too striking to deny they are something different.  Death means separation, not annihilation.  I see the Old Man = flesh as the Old Gestalt, Old Morphe of the Christian, hovering like a hostile ghost ready to spring into action & live, while the Christian suffers temporary death:  Awake thou that sleepest & Christ will shine upon thee.

 

I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. (Rom 7)  "I am carnal, sold under sin."  I see the Christian living A Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde existence; the Dr. Jekyl aspect mediated by transformation.  Christians need transformation in the present tense, long after salvation -- Rom 12:1-2; 2 Cor 3:18; Eph 3:14-19.  Faith is the key to being filled to all the fullness of God, not always experienced.  Paul said he was in travail until Christ be FORMED (morphe) in his readers.  The Christ morphe was lacking in the readers!  Metamorphosis is something that requires daily attention, like Peter walking on the water.  Agents of mediating the transformation include the love of Christ which constrains & beholding God's glory as in a mirror (2 Cor 3:18).  In his law he mediates day & night (mirror = word of God).

 

Perhaps you should clarify just what your position is.

[Qnts2]

 

 

But friend, your vss do say,

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire

 

None of my vss say that at all.

As far as the Old Man, let me just quote some scriptures:

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Note, that the old man is crucified with Him. That occurs at the point of salvation.

 

And thus it has nothing to do with a special category of elite Christians who have been "sanctified."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Again, there is entire sanctification when we are saved. Some like to call this positional sanctification, but I dislike that term as I think it emphasis makes it sound like God views us as sanctified but it really isn't true. If the bible says it, I take it as truth, and there are too many verses which speak of us being a new creation using differing descriptions.

 

It is called positional based on the fact that it is due to being in Christ.  It is true, just as our being raised with Christ is also true, & our being seated on the right hand of God in Christ is true.  All these things that are true of our Head are true of all Christians.  But our condition is that we have not yet been raised from the dead.

Now pardon me for asking, & this is just a hypothetical:

If you were at the pearly gates wanting entrance to Heaven and you were asked why you should be let in, what would you say?

For the last question, the reason I will be let in is because of Jesus complete work.

 

Are you saying that because Christ paid for your sins on the cross, you should be forgiven & let in?

Without going ino the 'sin nature', sanctification means separation for a purpose. In the Temple there were vessels which were sanctified, separated for use of honoring God in the Temple. Identical vessels could have been made, but they were not sanctified, so there was nothing special about the vessels. What made them special was God. They had been separated, sanctified, for Gods purposes.

 

And they were not morally righteous, as inanimate objects.

Entire sanctification is separating people for Gods purposes. Sanctification means we are now new creations, no longer in Adam, but made new, sanctified for Gods purposes. This is done at salvation by God, with no work of our own. We were not partially sanctified. We were entirely sanctified for Gods purposes and we can not add to or take away from our new position.

Since that is a part of what God does in order to save us, there is no work, nothing, that we do to earn it.

 

Indeed true.

At this point I have given a verse saying that the old man is dead, co-crucified with Jesus. That we no longer live, Jesus lives in us. That we are new creations, which includes the old having past away.

Romans 6:6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal 2:20I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

So far that is three verses.

Here is a new one, which says we are sanctified. Note, the tense in the following verse. It is not future, but now. We are sanctified:

1 Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1 Cor 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

The following verse is really quite mind blowing:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Yes, that verse actually says God has perfected those who are sanctified. Perfected means to be made whole. How were we made whole? The old man is dead and we are now new creations, made whole. Jesus lives in those who are born again, those who have received salvation.

 

Great truths.  But what does this have to do with the theories that

1) complete eradication of the sin nature in this life by "sanctification" and also

2) nevertheless, such a person can "lose his salvation" & end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

I was arguing against those 2 claims.  Now I am confused.  You reject them too?

 

The NT gives no indication that entire sanctification which we receive at salvation is in the future. The verses I gave are in the present tense. It is true of us now. We are new creations now. Our old man was crucified with Jesus. We are separated (sanctified) for Gods use and purposes right now.  Repeatedly scripture speaks of sanctification in the present tense, so moving that to the future alters plain scripture.

 

As far as the sin nature, the only translation which uses that term is the NIV. No other translation speaks about a sin nature. What you are supporting is a dual nature. A person can not be in Adam and in Jesus at the same time. It is one or the other. The sin nature is the Adamic nature.  A person can not be a son of the devil and a son of God at the same time.

 

As far as a person who is saved ending up in the lake of fire, that is impossible and unscriptural.  Entering into a discussion about eternal security is definitely off topic for this thread, so if you want that discussion, I would suggest you start a new thread.      

 

I confess to being confused as to what position you are defending. I thought you were defending the theological position that there is a 2nd blessing sanctification in this life in which the sin nature is eradicated, while also holding that such persons can end up in the Lake of Fire.

 

"Take away our bent to sinning,

Alpha & Omega be." Wesley

 

Maybe we are talking past each other.

 

Sanctification is presented in the Bible as past, present, progressive, & future.  I don't have the ambition at the moment to quote you all the scripture.  You can check a concordance & draw your own conclusions.  I can't believe that you don't think Christians can sin as totally sanctified when they are born again saved.

 

I spent many years studying the doctrine of Flesh, which occurs mostly in Paul's writings, sarx.  I came to the conclusion that it means the Old Human Adamic nature and the same thing as the Old Man.  I could not find any mutually exclusive characteristics between flesh & Old Man.  Both the flesh & the Old Man are said to have been virtually crucified.  But dead does not mean non-existent.  The flesh lusts (expresses strong desires) vs the Spirit & vice versa.  This is true of all Chrstians & cannot be escaped in this life.

 

I would not put "human nature" in a translation, since that is too interpretive.  The "human nature" interpretation of flesh is not a new interpretation; it has a long history.  IMHO, you either must interpret sarx (when it is responsible for sin) as the human nature, or as physical tissue (the body).   And I find the latter interpretation impossible.  Note that the works of the flesh are not all physical.

 

I am afraid that it would take me a lot of ink here to present my conclusions on this subject & defend them. 

 

The clearest passages I know of are Romans 6:18-19

 

Ἀνθρώπινον λέγω διὰ τὴν ἀσθένειαν τῆς σαρκὸς ὑμῶν.

the -in (-inos) suffix denotes adjective of material, only here the material is man-material.

 

and in  Ephesians 2:

 

the spirit that now works in

the sons of [expession denoting nature] disobedience;  among whom we also all once lived in

the lusts of our flesh, doing

the desires of the flesh even of the 

mind, and were

by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

Have you heard of "the mind of the flesh"?

The mind of the flesh is enmity vs. God.

 

Note that in the past tense Christians crucified the flesh; but despite this crucifixion (death) the flesh still exists as an active force for evil -- the death of the Old Man & of the flesh is the same, due to Christ's crucifixion & our inclusion in His death.  There is no more ground to teach the annihilation of the Old Man than of the flesh; which certainly is not annihilated!

 

 But I say, Walk by the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.  18 But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.  19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,  20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions,  parties,  21 envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I  forewarn you, even as I did  forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.  22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,  23 meekness, self-control; against such there is no law.  24 And they that are of Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with the passions and the lusts thereof.

 

Compare:

 our old man was crucified with him, that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin;

 

Ephesians:  But ye did not so learn Christ;  21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus:  22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt [right now the Old Man is active!] after the lusts of deceit;  23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,  24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.

 

 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof. Rom 13

 

In Eph it is new man vs old man;

In Rom 13 it is Christ vs flesh.

 

The parallelism between Old Man & flesh is too striking to deny they are something different.  Death means separation, not annihilation.  I see the Old Man = flesh as the Old Gestalt, Old Morphe of the Christian, hovering like a hostile ghost ready to spring into action & live, while the Christian suffers temporary death:  Awake thou that sleepest & Christ will shine upon thee.

 

I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived & I died. (Rom 7)  "I am carnal, sold under sin."  I see the Christian living A Dr Jekyl & Mr Hyde existence; the Dr. Jekyl aspect mediated by transformation.  Christians need transformation in the present tense, long after salvation -- Rom 12:1-2; 2 Cor 3:18; Eph 3:14-19.  Faith is the key to being filled to all the fullness of God, not always experienced.  Paul said he was in travail until Christ be FORMED (morphe) in his readers.  The Christ morphe was lacking in the readers!  Metamorphosis is something that requires daily attention, like Peter walking on the water.  Agents of mediating the transformation include the love of Christ which constrains & beholding God's glory as in a mirror (2 Cor 3:18).  In his law he mediates day & night (mirror = word of God).

 

Perhaps you should clarify just what your position is.

 

 

I will simply say that you are repeating things which are incorrect about my view. And things I have stated very clearly.

 

Christians are not living a Dr. Jekyl and Mr Hyde existence. Ot as I call it, good dog/bad dog  All I can say is if you believe what you are saying, then there can be no rest in Jesus as you constantly have to be fighting and working to suppress or overcome. That was the existance in the Mosaic covenant. A set of laws which had to be lived, and many desired to be obedient but had a nature contrary to the laws.

 

Metamorphisis as you call it is done by God, not us.

 

The question is, who are you. If you are a believer, born again, based on that, and all that it means, who are you now? From the moment before that happened to the moment after, had anything changed?