The Church of Laodicea

[Eliyahuw]

I'm glad to see someone correctly identified the fact that the church at Laodecia is a false, unsaved, apostate church - a church of the unsaved.

I have seen this verse misused so many times to try to scare people by saying "if you are not as on fire for God as you should be, He is disgusted with you and will spit you out of His mouth."

Should Christians be on fire for God? Absolutely. Is that what this verse is saying? No. But there are lots of verse that do say this - there's no need to yank this one out of context and make it say something it doesn't.

Laodecia is saved. If they were unsaved they would of not been referenced as a church at all.

Let's not add or take away from scripture. It is a letter to a church...let's leave it at that.

Uhh noo their not. In fact, it doesn't mention any believers whatsoever. In all hte others it has an admonition to each churchs believers except for the laodicians. there is no admonition to the belivers as their not even there. they have been taken away by christ at this point.

[exrockstar]

So, you're content with suggesting that "vomit you out of my mouth" is a picture of those who are saved?

Revelation 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Don't confuse "church" with "saved", they are not necessarily one and the same. The church becomes guilty with smugness, even though their works continue to be those of wickedness.

I think that is evident in the Matthew 7 passages, you know, "Lord, Lord, didn't we......." AND "depart from me, you workers of iniquity"

In His Love,

Suzanne

Yeah, "vomit out of your mouth" is Christ being disgusted with characteristic of this Church age.

But this is not different than, again, as a parent that has two kids. One of them is so out of line

that the parent is addressing them by pointing out what issues he has with them.

Nevertheless, they are his kids.

Right? You have two children. One of them is does drugs, is pregnant (or expects a child), no money, no career, nevertheless...

it is your child. Thing is that you may put up with so much from them whereas God will not abandon.

As for the passage that I used in Matthew 7...it isn't that I was trying to tie this with the Church of Laodecia but more trying to show

the acknowledgement with Christ and those saved. He acknowledges EVERYONE in His church but don't confuse that

with a church with walls. This forum has many members that are part of the church yet it has no walls.

I think that when you start breaking down what the issue with this church age when you start piecing what makes Him want to vomit.

That is where the awe really is.

Just one more thing to add about what we're talking about:

When Christ says "18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;"

This ties into:

1 Cor 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Again, Christ said in the letter "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich;"

This still strengthens what I am saying that everyone in the Laodecian age is saved. They all have the foundation which

is Jesus Christ. It is a matter of what are they building on that foundation.

If you're foundation is not Jesus Christ...you are not saved. Christ is not saying they have no foundation. Christ is addressing

what should be built on that foundation.

Why is it hard to believe that everyone in the Laodecian church is saved?

Maybe because people have this view that when Christ comes for His church that the ones that make Him

vomit will go to? That is a different topic all together......

God bless you

Edited March 27, 2007 by exrockstar

[exrockstar]

I'm glad to see someone correctly identified the fact that the church at Laodecia is a false, unsaved, apostate church - a church of the unsaved.

I have seen this verse misused so many times to try to scare people by saying "if you are not as on fire for God as you should be, He is disgusted with you and will spit you out of His mouth."

Should Christians be on fire for God? Absolutely. Is that what this verse is saying? No. But there are lots of verse that do say this - there's no need to yank this one out of context and make it say something it doesn't.

Laodecia is saved. If they were unsaved they would of not been referenced as a church at all.

Let's not add or take away from scripture. It is a letter to a church...let's leave it at that.

Uhh noo their not. In fact, it doesn't mention any believers whatsoever. In all hte others it has an admonition to each churchs believers except for the laodicians. there is no admonition to the belivers as their not even there. they have been taken away by christ at this point.

I'm just putting out there and you can dismiss it if you want but dismiss it with scripture.

This letter would of been written to the world and minus well include unsaved, non believers, other religions, etc.

But it is a letter to His Church and you can filter that down if you want to but I am going to take it at face value.

[exrockstar]

Why the Church of Laodecia are saved. (even though it's acknowledged as a "Church" by Christ already...)

Before addressing the churches in Rev 1:19-20, John says: " 19Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Hebrews 1:13-14 identifies these ministering angels:

"13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

So when John says in Rev 3:14 "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

1. That angel is sitting in Christ's right hand.

2. That angel is sent forth to minister to the Laodecians.

3. The Laodecians are heirs of salvation (Heb 1:14).

As bad as they (we) are. Salvation is sealed but Christ has a few things to say.

You guys can conclude that Laodecians are unsaved but I am showing all sorts of scripture that is saying otherwise.

Actually, I have soooo much info to offer about this church but I think this is my last post here because I feel as

I am coming off as someone crazy. lol I feel that from the feedback (or the lack of).

I just joined the board so maybe I shouldn't post so much.

Great convo. though

Edited March 28, 2007 by exrockstar

[None]

1. What is the "gold" and how does one buy it?

Since it is Jesus saying, "I counsel you to buy from me..."

Then the "gold" is the Word of Truth and Wisdom Jesus is offering us when we come to Him alone and worship directly,

on our knees.

When we do this, we are "buying" His perfect "gold".

When we share it, we are "selling" and earning "treasures in Heaven".

That's how it makes sense to me.

Edited March 29, 2007 by None

[patricia1]

What kind of fire tests faith? Faith seems to exists spiritually with physical evidence while fire is only physical.

To continue in Peter..

2 Peter But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed it's coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Is this the same fire that will refine our faith to be like that of pure gold?

Revelation 11 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great

Somewhere in the major upheaval on the earth we will receive our rewards. Paul (in the above Corinthian verse) said this comes through fire. With the flames of Jesus, all of the temporary and worthless items (gold, wealth) are consumed. Poor Laodicea-- they really are poor!

well first they had earthly riches but not spiritual riches...thats first

[patricia1]

What kind of fire tests faith? Faith seems to exists spiritually with physical evidence while fire is only physical.

To continue in Peter..

2 Peter But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed it's coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Is this the same fire that will refine our faith to be like that of pure gold?

Revelation 11 The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great

Somewhere in the major upheaval on the earth we will receive our rewards. Paul (in the above Corinthian verse) said this comes through fire. With the flames of Jesus, all of the temporary and worthless items (gold, wealth) are consumed. Poor Laodicea-- they really are poor!

well first they had earthly riches but not spiritual riches...thats first. I think it would potray the apostate church. they were near ephesus and about 30 miles or more away from philadelphia and probably one of the richest of all the cities mentioned It was the banking center from what I remember. To be naked there is the greek word ' gumnotes which comes fromgumnos which actually meansbeing destitute of spiritualclothing of righteousness which is by faith. , naked of the imputed righteousness of faith. Lord I did a study and teaching on this in the late 80's. Brings back old memories. patricia

[exrockstar]

1. What is the "gold" and how does one buy it?

Since it is Jesus saying, "I counsel you to buy from me..."

Then the "gold" is the Word of Truth and Wisdom Jesus is offering us when we come to Him alone and worship directly,

on our knees.

When we do this, we are "buying" His perfect "gold".

When we share it, we are "selling" and earning "treasures in Heaven".

That's how it makes sense to me.

when we buy gold its because we're on our knees?

consider this scripture:

"1 Cor 3:12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

one recieves gold for certain type of "work."

the question is what kind of "work" gets one gold, silver, precious stones that wont burn in the fire.

[David L]

I really would like to see if anyone here would be interested in seeking this out with me. It is a study on these passages and what they mean. With particular interest on the bolded areas:

Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write,'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked-- 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." ' "

I want to look closely at the disillusion of this particular church, and the remedy offered by Jesus.

To pay close attention to the reality of their standing mentioned, as wretched, miserable, poor, blind and naked.

Also these meanings:

1. What is the "gold" and how does one buy it?

2. What is the refining in the fire mean?

3. White garments?

4. Eye Salve?

Also, the misquoted use of verse 20, in today's churches. It is frequently implied that this verse is for the lost, rather than the church herself.

Leave to you to Suzanne to ask thought provoking questions!!

1. Gold is often used in the bible to illustrate that which is eternal. No matter how many times it becomes polluted you can always put it through the fire and purify it. The gold Jesus was talking about was that which is eternal. Silver is temporary and always eludes to something of temporary value. Thus, Jesus was betrayed for silver, something of temporary value.

Gold however is a metal that never loses its value. It's value is eternal. The salvation through Jesus Christ is the gold He is speaking of to the Laodiceans. Salvation through Jesus Christ, like gold, has eternal value.

Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy..

We must understand that Laodicea or "Peoples Opinions" will always betray Jesus for something of temporary value. Something this world has to offer of temporary value. Wealth is something of temporary value. It is the silver that betrayed Jesus then and will continue to betray Him until the Last Day.

2. This is partially covered by the previous answer. Let's look at scripture.

For You have tried us, O God; You have refined us as silver is refined. Psalm 66:10

It's clear and simple. Refining the gold is just what God is doing in the life of one who is born again. You refine gold because the finished product has everlasting or eternal value. This is all illustrative of the things which have already been said in plain and simple language.

"Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. Isaiah 48:10

6 "Your dwelling is in the midst of deceit; Through deceit they refuse to know Me," declares the LORD.

7 Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, I will refine them and assay them; For what else can I do, because of the daughter of My people? Jeremiah 9:6-7

"Some of those who have insight will fall, in order to refine, purge and make them pure until the end time; because it is still to come at the appointed time. Daniel 11:35

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name,And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people, 'And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.'" Zechariah 13:9

"But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap. Malachi 3:2

..and it goes on and on until the gold is pure.

3. Again! The reference is to the garments of salvation in Isaiah. It is not that the Laodiceans weren't saved but that they had taken off the garments of their salvation. Salvation is not lost but is rejected or trampled under foot according to Hebrews 10 by some Christians. This is the peril of falling away.

I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels. Isaiah 61:10

4. Eye salve so you may see?

Because of the backslidden condition of Laodicea they are unable to understand the scriptures. Remember the foolish virgins? They needed oil in their lamps to see in the coming darkness of the night. The night is something often used in scripture to typify the Great Tribulation - the Time of Jacob's Trouble. Different liquids typify the Holy Spirit in the different aspects of His ministry such as water, oil, wine, etc. In this case Jesus is using something that was well known in that day as a remedy for the eyes. Remember each church was threatened to repent or have the lampstand removed which is yet another reference to the presence of the Holy Spirit.

I'm pressed for time or I'd further expound the subject. This is most enjoyable... I need to get out of the debates and join the bible studies.

Edited August 25, 2007 by David L

[tsth]

Wonderful response David. I'm going to dig back into this one. I will hopefully be able to devote some time into thought and meditation on this, after I get some things finished with my kids. I'd like to think more on this, it is encouraging.

In His Love,

Suzanne