The rapture theory: True or false?

[mevosper]

Sorry for the delay.

 

First and foremost it is applicable to be sure that God’s name is glorified. It is because of His grace that we are. May His name be praised always. It is not about us at all. For we are “unprofitable servants doing what we have ought to do. (Luke 17:10)”

 

 

 

Never going to win this argument concerning the rapture.

 

There is no winning, This isn't a game.  We are searching for TRUTH!

 

On this earth, if christians are divided, there is no winning. It just means there is deception that needs to be "scratched". It is ultimately about glorifying the name of God.

 

It is amiss to ignore the words of our Christ in which he suffered the children to come unto him (this is not meant as a hijack):

 

Matthew 19:14 “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven”

 

Is the kingdom of heaven but a bunch of children running around? Of course not. So why is Christ indicating that heaven is made of such? Because of the innocence of little children. Because of the naivete of little children. The thought processes of little children. Think Adam and Eve before partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

 

Genesis 2:25 “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” Being naked! Not Ashamed! Innocent! Pure!

 

 

 

Tribulation

But let’s first discuss this great tribulation. A quick search of all the references in the KJV of the word “tribulation”:

1. None is capitalized except Romans 2:9, and that because it is the first word in a sentence. It is never used in terms of an “end-of-the-world time of terrible trouble” in which saints will be escaped from.  
2. Most indications of the word “tribulation” are aimed at the difficulties, oppressions, distresses that are placed upon saints and believers. Never is it used as "wrath of God" on the wicked.  
3. 1 Thess 5:9-10 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath...that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.” The “appointment to wrath” is the perishing, second death, for unbelievers. The flip side, and the hope of christians, is they will not be left in the grave to perish, but that “whether we wake or sleep, we (will) live together with him”. Not die forever without him. Verses 3 and 4 do not qualify verses 9 and 10 for the rapture theory.  

 

In the KJV, the phrase “great tribulation” is used in Matt 24:21, Rev 2:22, and Rev 7:14.

(As I wanted to get something posted, these verse are not being ignored, but are placed on the back burner for this post)

 

 

Wrath of God

I think it is important to understand exactly what the “wrath of God” is. Where is this particular phrase used in the the New Testament? And how?

There are 30 verses in the KJV with the phrase “wrath of God”. I’m not going to list them all here. Being good “Bereans”, Christians will do their own research. But here are a few of them that pertain, perhaps, to this discussion:

 

John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This verse is talking about everlasting life (having part in the resurrection spoken of in 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4:13-18), or not having everlasting life.

 

Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience

The things being talked about are discussed in the previous verse, and are those things that would keep one out of the kingdom of heaven (see Rev 21:8).

 

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

The same are those wearing the mark of the beast, of which Paul talks about in Col 3:5. Again, Rev 14:11 talks about their torment ascending forever and ever - like in a lake that burns with fire and brimstone (Rev 21:8). Of interest is to note that verse 8 indicates that Babylon also has a “wine of wrath”.

 

The wrath of God is the punishment known as the second death, the lake of fire and brimstone, the absence of being included in the resurrection. God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29, ref 2 Sam 6:7).

 

This is just the beginning of trying to untangle this deception called the rapture. It's a fishing line tangle of mess. It's a puzzle within a puzzle. And the best way to start is having correct definitions and rightly dividing.

 

 

 

[Enoch2021]

Sorry for the delay.

 

First and foremost it is applicable to be sure that God’s name is glorified. It is because of His grace that we are. May His name be praised always. It is not about us at all. For we are “unprofitable servants doing what we have ought to do. (Luke 17:10)”

 

 

 

Never going to win this argument concerning the rapture.

 

There is no winning, This isn't a game.  We are searching for TRUTH!

 

On this earth, if christians are divided, there is no winning. It just means there is deception that needs to be "scratched". It is ultimately about glorifying the name of God.

 

It is amiss to ignore the words of our Christ in which he suffered the children to come unto him (this is not meant as a hijack):

 

Matthew 19:14 “But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven”

 

Is the kingdom of heaven but a bunch of children running around? Of course not. So why is Christ indicating that heaven is made of such? Because of the innocence of little children. Because of the naivete of little children. The thought processes of little children. Think Adam and Eve before partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil:

 

Genesis 2:25 “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” Being naked! Not Ashamed! Innocent! Pure!

 

 

 

Tribulation

But let’s first discuss this great tribulation. A quick search of all the references in the KJV of the word “tribulation”:

1. None is capitalized except Romans 2:9, and that because it is the first word in a sentence. It is never used in terms of an “end-of-the-world time of terrible trouble” in which saints will be escaped from.  
2. Most indications of the word “tribulation” are aimed at the difficulties, oppressions, distresses that are placed upon saints and believers. Never is it used as "wrath of God" on the wicked.  
3. 1 Thess 5:9-10 “For God hath not appointed us to wrath...that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.” The “appointment to wrath” is the perishing, second death, for unbelievers. The flip side, and the hope of christians, is they will not be left in the grave to perish, but that “whether we wake or sleep, we (will) live together with him”. Not die forever without him. Verses 3 and 4 do not qualify verses 9 and 10 for the rapture theory.  

 

In the KJV, the phrase “great tribulation” is used in Matt 24:21, Rev 2:22, and Rev 7:14.

(As I wanted to get something posted, these verse are not being ignored, but are placed on the back burner for this post)

 

 

Wrath of God

I think it is important to understand exactly what the “wrath of God” is. Where is this particular phrase used in the the New Testament? And how?

There are 30 verses in the KJV with the phrase “wrath of God”. I’m not going to list them all here. Being good “Bereans”, Christians will do their own research. But here are a few of them that pertain, perhaps, to this discussion:

 

John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

This verse is talking about everlasting life (having part in the resurrection spoken of in 1 Cor 15, 1 Thess 4:13-18), or not having everlasting life.

 

Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience

The things being talked about are discussed in the previous verse, and are those things that would keep one out of the kingdom of heaven (see Rev 21:8).

 

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

The same are those wearing the mark of the beast, of which Paul talks about in Col 3:5. Again, Rev 14:11 talks about their torment ascending forever and ever - like in a lake that burns with fire and brimstone (Rev 21:8). Of interest is to note that verse 8 indicates that Babylon also has a “wine of wrath”.

 

The wrath of God is the punishment known as the second death, the lake of fire and brimstone, the absence of being included in the resurrection. God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29, ref 2 Sam 6:7).

 

This is just the beginning of trying to untangle this deception called the rapture. It's a fishing line tangle of mess. It's a puzzle within a puzzle. And the best way to start is having correct definitions and rightly dividing.

 

 

=======================================================================================

 

 

In the KJV, the phrase “great tribulation” is used in Matt 24:21, Rev 2:22, and Rev 7:14.

(As I wanted to get something posted, these verse are not being ignored, but are placed on the back burner for this post)

 

I'll post it....

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

 

GREAT TRIBULATION is distinct from (persecution/sufferings/trials/tribulation Little "t");  the latter comes from the World, the former is directly sourced by GOD.

 

This is the last 3 1/2 Years of Daniel's 70th Week (SEE: Daniel 9: 25-27)

 

 

The wrath of God is the punishment known as the second death

 

You are incorrect here.  The WRATH of GOD is the Seals Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation.

 

(Luke 21:23) " But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

 

(Romans 2:5) "But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;"

 

(Revelation 6:16) "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

(Revelation 6:17) "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

(Revelation 11:18) "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."

 

(Revelation 14:10) "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:"

 

(Revelation 14:19) "And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

 

 

***(1 Thessalonians 5:9) "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"   Speaking of "The Church" here.

[Babbler]

I guess I am an atheist and an antichrist. I must lack discernment because I will never go back to those errors so many ascribe to. Been there done that. Ignorance once dispelled can never be regained.

[Enoch2021]

I guess I am an atheist and an antichrist. I must lack discernment because I will never go back to those errors so many ascribe to. Been there done that. Ignorance once dispelled can never be regained.

 

===============================================================================

 

 

I guess I am an atheist and an antichrist.

 

I never said you were

 

 

I will never go back to those errors so many ascribe to.

 

What errors?  List a few and Lets reason together.

 

Been there done that. Ignorance once dispelled can never be regained.

 

Go ahead with the dispelling.

 

Somebody once said:   Ignorance isn't a barrier to knowledge, The True Barrier is thinking you already have the Truth when you don't. (Unknown)

[mevosper]

 

I'll post it....

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

 

GREAT TRIBULATION is distinct from (persecution/sufferings/trials/tribulation Little "t");  the latter comes from the World, the former is directly sourced by GOD.

 

This is the last 3 1/2 Years of Daniel's 70th Week (SEE: Daniel 9: 25-27)

 

Where do we find that "great tribulation" is sourced from God?

If, as you say, this is "the great tribulation", wouldn't this be brought on by the antichrist after the abomination of desolation? And if that is the case, it wouldn't be from God. 

 

 

Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20-21 record the same event, each a little bit differently. Matthew mentions the Daniel prophecy as you have noted. This happened in 70 a.d. when the Roman army ransacked and destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. This event cannot be ignored as being a fulfillment of this prophecy. Especially in light of Christ's words:

 

Luke 21:32 "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"

 

And when this event happened, was there not great tribulation? Whether this event happens again or not is yet to be determined.  

Edited April 6, 2014 by mevosper

[mevosper]

 

And let me expand Briefly on a few Very Key Patterns.  Everything from Revelation Chapter 4 onward is "Heavily Jewish".

 

The First 3 Chapters are dealing with the 7 Churches....more on these in a moment.

 

This is very interesting and to drive home the Point.  Jesus has, by my count, 24 Titles in the First 3 Chapters ......NONE Are Jewish.

 

Every Title from Chapter 4 on ................................................................................................................................ALL Are Jewish.

 

 

That's good deduction right there. Did you also notice that everything from Chapter 4 onward is related to the Jews. The temple, the 24 elders, the altar. So this just tells me I need to :

 

Quote

Do I need to know this to get into Heaven?

 

Do you need to Know about the Rapture to be Saved?  NO.  However, HE PUT it in HIS WORD and TOLD US for a REASON.....

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 

 

(2 Timothy 3:16) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

 

(2 Timothy 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

 

And, so you will not be Deceived.   Increased FAITH and HOPE

 

...prove all things

...be instructed by the word of God

...study to shew myself approved unto God. 

 

So I did this with Revelation starting with a self study of the temple - specifically the tabernacle as God gave to Moses. Very enlightening little study. This lead to a little self study of the Feasts of the Lord. Both of which I'm still working on, and both have been incredibly eye-opening. Having even a small understanding of the original tabernacle, beyond the fact that it was built as a movable tent, opens doors to the book of The Revelation of Jesus Christ that are incredibly...ummm... revealing. 

 

Concerning John being whisked away in the spirit in the 4th chapter, he was also in the spirit in Rev 17:3, and Rev 21:10, both being carried away to different places. 

[mevosper]

Quote

What really happens to one when they die

 

Now that's a QUESTION!!!    My "guess", we are in Spirit and are immediately with HIM (No Spiritual Bodies Yet).  Also HE and Heaven are outside the Time Domain...that is to say, from GODS Perspective.....somebody could die 1200BC and somebody could die Tomorrow and both arrive in Heaven @ the "SAME TIME" for the lack of a better Phrase. 

 

Well, according to Job, Psalm, and Ecclesiastes, the body of the saints and believers await for the resurrection.

 

Job 14:13 "O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!" Oh, look, God's wrath. God is a consuming fire remember. His wrath is a consuming fire. So in the parable of the tares, what happens? The tares get harvested and burned.

 

Psa 6:5 "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" In the grave, there is no remembering or giving thanks. This all seems obvious, I know. There is no mention of a spirit going to be with God or a soul being with Jesus. So what happened at Christ's resurrection. We'll get to that part.

 

Psa 49:14 "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling" The wording "dominion over them in the morning" is prophetic in that Christ is the Morning Star (2 Pet 1:19, Rev 2:28, Rev 22:16) and will give the power to be priests and kings (Rev 1:6) after Christ's resurrection (Matt 28:18).

 

Psa 49:15 "But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me" Oh look, a soul trapped by the power of the grave. But what did Christ do? He conquered the grave. And that puts us right back to 1 Cor 15:54,55. 

 

1 Cor 15:54, 55 "...Death is swallowed up in victory (Isa 25:8). (55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" 

 

Study to show thyself approved. Meat not milk. Be a good Berean. My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. 

The question remains - when is the resurrection? 

 

Are there at least two resurrections,  in which the first were resurrected right after Christ's resurrection, fulfilling the feast of the barley wave (during passover)?

 

Matt 27:52-53 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, (27) and came out of the graves after his resurrection..."  

 

Is the second at the harvest according to the parable of the Wheat and the Tares? (Matt 13:24-30)

 

The rapture theory is just that - a theory, and a false teaching.  

[Montana Marv]

Lazarus went back into the grave after his resurrection.  These individuals who came to live also went back to the grave.  They had the same body and soul they had before they died.  They did not receive new Resurrected Body as Jesus Christ did.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ENOCH2010]

Marv, you know the Bible doesn't say that, that is your opinion.

[Montana Marv]

Marv, you know the Bible doesn't say that, that is your opinion.

So were they able to walk through walls, Scripture does not say.  Yet, these individuals came alive out of their tombs at Jesus Christ's death (Matt 27:53).  Jesus had not yet risen or received His Glorified Body, being the First Fruit of the Resurrection for the Just.  So where does this put these individuals, the First Fruits before Christ.  God Forbid.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv