nebula Posted February 27, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 27, 2014 You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT. He was the word from the beginning. So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam. Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane. We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection. He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham. Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all. Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. Scripture interprets itself. I thought so too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitfull77 Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 132 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 25 Days Won: 1 Joined: 06/09/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT. He was the word from the beginning. So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam. Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane. We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection. He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham. Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all. Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. Scripture interprets itself. I thought so too. You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT. He was the word from the beginning. So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam. Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane. We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection. He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham. Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all. Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. Scripture interprets itself. I thought so too. Only generalizing some questions-it's not about you personally. But what do you think was God's purpose for making a covenant with Abraham ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? *** Removed link to SDA teaching *** What does this have to do w/ the SDA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT. He was the word from the beginning. So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam. Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane. We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection. He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham. Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all. Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. Scripture interprets itself. I thought so too. You do know that Jesus was the God of Abraham-He was the one that made the covenants with those in the OT. He was the word from the beginning. So now in the NT we have Abraham's God, Jesus Christ , the same person who thundered the 10 Commandments and made agreements with Noah and Abraham going back to Adam. Jesus is the sole ultimate and highest authority on scripture, the inspiration behind it. If He is magnifying the terms and enhancing the spiritual elements of OT agreements He has that power.God's plan has progressed past the physical and has now enter into a higher plane. We have Jesus leading the way with all His covenants transformed into a greater way towards perfection. He is the master and the keeper of the covenants. OK - what makes you think I am denying or disbelieving any of this? As Paul says those who are Christ's by faith are indeed also the children of Abraham. Correct - the key were here being "also" - not "instead of." It's hard to let go for some people that their rights and claims are not to be shared by all. Please explain to me what rights and claims you believe me to be denying anyone. Scripture interprets itself. I thought so too. Only generalizing some questions-it's not about you personally. But what do you think was God's purpose for making a covenant with Abraham ? I am failing to see what your question has to do with the enjoining vs. transferred issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remnantrob Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,029 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 261 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/25/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/23/1982 Author Share Posted February 28, 2014 Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? *** Removed link to SDA teaching *** What does this have to do w/ the SDA? I inadvertently posted a link to the sermon that I mentioned I heard this topic from. I thought it would be interesting to post it so that the reader could get the context of what I was saying. It was removed because it is a sermon by an sda minister. I apologize for that but if you're interested in getting the context of why I started this thread inbox me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qnts2 Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 20 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,875 Content Per Day: 0.71 Reputation: 1,336 Days Won: 9 Joined: 03/13/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 Abraham received several promises from God. One in particular is directed to people from all nations. What is translated as nations in the OT comes from the Hebew word goy (goyim is plural). Goy refers to a people group or ethnic group which starts from a common ancester. The children of Israel is an ethnic group with a linage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob was renamed Israel, so it follows that children of Israel are direct descendents of Jacob/Israel. Israel is often used in scripture as a short form of children of Israel, and Israel refers to the ethnic group. Jews or better phrased, Jewish people, comes from a slang expression which was first used in Babylon, referring to the children of Israel who lived in Judea and was not used in scripture until the Babylonian captivity, with the first use in the book of Esther. The confusion comes in because the Gentiles, who believe on Jesus, are called children of Abraham but are never called children of Israel. Some people confuse Abraham and Israel. Another confusion has to do with the NT, as it seems some people forget that the 'Church' was first made up of children of Israel and Gentiles were added later. Some of the NT books, address children of Israel/Jews and Gentiles separately. Gentiles simply means 'not Jewish' or 'not children of Israel'. When scripture addresses a group as Gentile, because Gentile refers to people who are 'not children of Israel', that automatically distinguishes the two groups. When NT scripture addresses Jews/children of Israel, it is not talking to Gentiles. In the NT, these 'labels' continue from Matthew, thru Genesis. So, when Paul is called the apostle to the Gentiles, it means his main mission was to non-Israel. However, Paul did start every mission trip by speaking to the Jews, as in 'to the Jews first. While children of Israel lived around Jerusalem, most actually did not live in that region. The Jewish people were scattered throughout the Roman empire. One of the larger populations outside of Jerusalem lived in Rome. Jerusalem and Rome had a rocky relationship, and there was a time when there was great unrest in Jerusalem. After Rome clamped down on Jerusalem, Jews who lived in Rome were expelled for about 3 years. Among the population of Jews in Rome, of course some were Messianic, or believed in Jesus. The church in Rome started as a Jewish church and Jewish people were in leadership, as Gentiles joined the church in Rome. When the Jewish people were expelled from Rome, that included the Jewish believers, so Gentile believers found themselves without the Jewish leadership. Three years later, when the Jews were allowed back in Rome, the Jewish believers returned, but the Gentile believers were resistant in allowing them back into the church. So Paul wrote the book of Romans, speaking alternately to Jewish believers and Gentile believers. In particular, Paul explained to Gentile believers, the place of the Jewish people in general, and their place in light of the existance of the Jewish people, whether unsaved or saved. Romans 11 deals particularly with the issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnochBethany Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 1 Topic Count: 8 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 649 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 99 Days Won: 3 Joined: 02/21/2014 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2014 Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? *** Removed link to SDA teaching *** What does this have to do w/ the SDA? I inadvertently posted a link to the sermon that I mentioned I heard this topic from. I thought it would be interesting to post it so that the reader could get the context of what I was saying. It was removed because it is a sermon by an sda minister. I apologize for that but if you're interested in getting the context of why I started this thread inbox me. OK, thanks for the response. As to the blessings of Israel: IMHO: The Church has not been promised real estate on earth -- our citizenship is in Heaven. But we do come under the universal provision of the Abe covenant: I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donibm Posted February 28, 2014 Group: Removed from Forums for Breaking Terms of Service Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 246 Content Per Day: 0.07 Reputation: 44 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/11/2014 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/09/1974 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Heard a sermon about this topic and was wondering what you guys thought. Abraham was given blessing that he tried to give to Ishmael by his own work and God said no, it was going to Isaac even though he was the second born. I've heard in that culture in those days that the first born was always entitled to the inheritances of the father. We go down the lineage a little and see that the blessing was supposed to go to Esau goes to the second born Jacob. Adam is the first man and Jesus is the second man and he gets the blessing(or is the blessing). Could it be possible that the blessings/promises of Israel could be transferrable to the church? *** Removed link to SDA teaching *** Yes AND no. Here's why. 1) God PROMISED Abraham. It's not about Jews or the Church. It's about His PROMISE to Abraham. Over and over we see how the Jews are unworthy. God even threatened to wipe them out, and would have, IF it weren't for His PROMISE to Abraham and His own names sake (read Ezekiel). The 144,000 in Revelation is proof of it. They are not "righteous". They are not "deserving". They are chosen. Observe how they are virgins and have never told lies? I believe they are babies or very young males because of this. Why? Because everyone tells a lie at some point. And most men are probably no longer a virgin after the age of 20. 2) Well, you have to consider the Covenant to know what is and what is not 'transferable'. The Scriptures tell us about how the Covenant of the Land is clearly the Jews. It is an unconditional promise. People tend to get this confused for the promise of SALVATION. However, Scriptures do say that what is of them will be "TAKEN" and given to another nation or strange tongues. So, yes, there is inclanation that it will be taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles. It is very clear about the branches that are broken off (jews) and branches that are engrafted (gentiles) ... UNTIL THE FULL NUMBER HAS COME IN. However, while most Jews will see Hellfire, Gods PROMISE to Abraham remains. A remnant WILL be saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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