The_Patriot21 Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,738 Content Per Day: 2.44 Reputation: 8,551 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Online Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 9, 2014 Changing laws can and does change people. Furthermore it gets the churches name out there. You don't reach souls by sitting quietly and minding your own business you reach souls by getting out there. By feeding the needy. By preaching to the lost. And yes, by changing laws for the benefit of Christ. Changing laws change actions, not hearts. God changes hearts. Not too many examples of anyone in the New Testament out there trying to change laws, in fact there are none. yet, there are countless examples of followers of Christ in government roles in the Old Testament, countless. Did you ever consider those? Jesus did away with the old covenant-not the old testament. If your not called to be politically active, then thats fine, but don't diss on those that are-because Jesus is needed in politics to. I agree, only the holy spirit can change hearts-changing laws doesn't change the heart, but changing laws, and influencing them, can help change hearts-for example, christians in politics can make it easier for churches to go out there and preach, they can influence what is taught in our public schools, they can even help change the hearts of other politicians. and dont get me started on westboro. I did not say that Christians should not be politically active, I said that churches should not. There is a time and a place for everything, church is not the place for political activity. the church is the people within not the building, so if you say the people can be politically active and not the church is contradictory. People often try to differentiate between the two-and theyre wrong, christians and the church should be one and the same-if they are not, then that is why the church is inneffective and not reaching people, not whether theyre politically active or not. The church, as in the people within should be reaching out in all areas-politics and non politics. period. not everyone in the church needs to be active-thats why its called a church body, different people have different gifts, some may choose to work the food kitchen others may choose to be active in politics. A well working church body should be able to do all of the above. It should be able to spread Gods love both to each other, to people in their community, as well as into politics, if it is not capable of working as such a body then the church has issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookingForAnswers Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,033 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 67 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2014 how about the church make a spiritual statement instead. Seems to be more in line with what Jesus would expect. Jesus didn't commission the church to make political statements, He did so to win over the lost. You cannot serve two masters, either a church is political or it is spiritual. There you go again with the misconception that a church can't be involved in politics and spread Christ's love. When in reality a church should be willing to do both there is no reason why you can't spread Gods love through politics-in fact churches being politically active can do a great many things, in fact if more churches were politically active our government wouldnt be nearly as corrupt, perhaps we even have outlawed abortion and we wouldn't be teaching kids that their a bunch of animals that evolved by chance from a random explosion x amount of years ago. Any time spent being politically active is time spent not trying to save souls. Being politically active might change laws but it does not change people. If the church worried more about saving souls and less about changing laws the latter would take care of itself. The time you spend reading a book, watching tv, posting on this forum is time wasted not spreading the gospel. To paraphrase you, you should worry more about saving souls and less about convincing folks that you are right on this forum, I never claimed to be innocent of this myself. And I have never tried to convince anyone that I am right, I am merely expressing my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookingForAnswers Posted March 9, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,033 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 67 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 9, 2014 Changing laws can and does change people. Furthermore it gets the churches name out there. You don't reach souls by sitting quietly and minding your own business you reach souls by getting out there. By feeding the needy. By preaching to the lost. And yes, by changing laws for the benefit of Christ. Changing laws change actions, not hearts. God changes hearts. Not too many examples of anyone in the New Testament out there trying to change laws, in fact there are none. yet, there are countless examples of followers of Christ in government roles in the Old Testament, countless. Did you ever consider those? Jesus did away with the old covenant-not the old testament. If your not called to be politically active, then thats fine, but don't diss on those that are-because Jesus is needed in politics to. I agree, only the holy spirit can change hearts-changing laws doesn't change the heart, but changing laws, and influencing them, can help change hearts-for example, christians in politics can make it easier for churches to go out there and preach, they can influence what is taught in our public schools, they can even help change the hearts of other politicians. and dont get me started on westboro. I did not say that Christians should not be politically active, I said that churches should not. There is a time and a place for everything, church is not the place for political activity. the church is the people within not the building, so if you say the people can be politically active and not the church is contradictory. People often try to differentiate between the two-and theyre wrong, christians and the church should be one and the same-if they are not, then that is why the church is inneffective and not reaching people, not whether theyre politically active or not. The church, as in the people within should be reaching out in all areas-politics and non politics. period. not everyone in the church needs to be active-thats why its called a church body, different people have different gifts, some may choose to work the food kitchen others may choose to be active in politics. A well working church body should be able to do all of the above. It should be able to spread Gods love both to each other, to people in their community, as well as into politics, if it is not capable of working as such a body then the church has issues. I am speaking gathering of a group of people who have come together to worship the Lord and be with each other and hopefully show the love of Christ to those who do not know it. It is a time and a place set aside for a specific activity. I am a CBIP by trade but when I gather with other Christians in a church service I am not there to do ply my trade or to watch football or read SiFi books, we are there to worship the Lord. There is a time and a place for everything. Why would we want to take a time set aside for God and give it over to political talk? There is no love in politics, and thus one cannot spread God's love while engaging in political activity or discussion. Just look at this forum, we are for the most part all believers and even when we discuss politics there rarely love. It is hard to tell someone they do not deserve the same tax breaks as you and convince them God loves them at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,738 Content Per Day: 2.44 Reputation: 8,551 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Online Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 10, 2014 and why cant you worship God and be politically active at the same time? as far as your heated debate assault-yes, we discuss politics, and yes sometimes it gets out of hand. we are human. it happens in church to, we dont always express love. But the flip side of it is, there have also been multiple times on here where a viewpoint is expressed without a personal attack and the other side takes offense at it. Happens in the real world to, people often think that if one disagrees then one must hate you, and its not true and maybe we need to learn to grow some thicker skins. Just because I told you that you were wrong on something doesnt mean I think your a horrible person, it means I disagree with you and think you are wrong. But that is all beside the point-just because we cant all get along is not an excuse not to get involved in politics, it just means we need to learn how to do it better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmuffet Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 34 Topic Count: 1,996 Topics Per Day: 0.48 Content Count: 48,693 Content Per Day: 11.68 Reputation: 30,343 Days Won: 226 Joined: 01/11/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2014 This has just turned out to be another heated debate thread.Mods why don't you delete it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Patriot21 Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 27 Topic Count: 338 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 15,738 Content Per Day: 2.44 Reputation: 8,551 Days Won: 39 Joined: 10/25/2006 Status: Online Birthday: 02/27/1985 Share Posted March 10, 2014 This has just turned out to be another heated debate thread.Mods why don't you delete it? it is a debate, and it is heated, but were not attacking each other? why do you think it should be deleted just because we don't agree on it? should we censor everything we don't agree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 10, 2014 But even so, when a person gives a tithe or an offering, it is given to the Lord and the work of His ministry. Are you fine with a portion of the money you gave to the church to give to the food bank to be given instead to the government? If my church were to leave the realm of religion and enter the secular realm i would be fine with it. Ah, so you are a believer in separating the "sacred" from the "secular"? That isn't Biblical. It is not my distinction, it is the worlds. So, you're OK with the world's distinctions running the church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I did not say that Christians should not be politically active, I said that churches should not. There is a time and a place for everything, church is not the place for political activity. What is "the church" but the congregation? And what is the "congregation" but the people? In this instance it is the gathering of a group of people who have come together to worship the Lord and be with each other and hopefully show the love of Christ to those who do not know it. It is a time and a place set aside for a specific activity. I am a CBIP by trade but when I gather with other Christians in a church service I am not there to do ply trade or to watch football or read SiFi books, we are there to worship the Lord. There is a time and a place for everything. Why would we want to take a time set aside for God and give it over to political talk? Because politics affects our lives. How many churches were involved in the Civil Rights Movement? Let's say we were in the 60's debating this topic, and the church issue was preaching pro-Civil Rights and encouraging people to be politically active to bring about Civil Rights. Would you favor the church losing its tax exempt status for this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest P_W Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think this has been a good debate and would be disappointed to see it go. I have learned a few things and strengthened my own position. I think those who read this will also learn, or at least be encouraged to think through some of these issues we face today. Nebula has brought up a very good point concerning civil rights and the churches of that time. I hope we never forget the bombings that took place during that period and the lives that were lost for taking a stand for freedom. We need to remember that many were killed while attending church. These were saints who were martyred for a necessary cause and among these noble people were little children. We face a situation now when many Pastors are being forced to recognize unholy unions and marry gay couples. The ACLU would be right there filing the first law suit, if they have not already, if a Pastor refuses. It is possible that they could be fined, jailed, or who knows, if they refuse to comply. It is not too far reaching to consider this a possibility all over the USA should this become law of the land. This administration has already gone against several states that only recognize traditional marriage. What more are they prepared to do to force this upon us? Should the church remain silent on issues such as these, we could all be forced to accept a practice that God calls an abomination. The next step taken by homosexuals could be to have various parts of the Bible that speak out against sexual sin considered as hate speech. It is similar to being forced to pay for abortion. If I were the Pastor of a church, I would gladly give up my 501c3 status to stand against such evil. Shalom, Prair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LookingForAnswers Posted March 10, 2014 Group: Seeker Followers: 0 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,033 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 67 Days Won: 2 Joined: 12/26/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2014 But even so, when a person gives a tithe or an offering, it is given to the Lord and the work of His ministry. Are you fine with a portion of the money you gave to the church to give to the food bank to be given instead to the government? If my church were to leave the realm of religion and enter the secular realm i would be fine with it. Ah, so you are a believer in separating the "sacred" from the "secular"? That isn't Biblical. It is not my distinction, it is the worlds. So, you're OK with the world's distinctions running the church? I have been thinking about this a bit more deeply and I think my answer is flawed. First, Jesus himself made the distinction, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. Second even you made the distinction above, the money you give to your church is given to God while I am assuming the money you paid for your groceries you do not view as money given to God. Our churches are set apart by this distinction, they are tax exempt, and you seem to think that this distinction is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts