The tribulation Saints

[OneLight]

 

 

 

Revelation 20:4-6 tells us who is in the first resurrection.

 

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

So who is this seated on the thrones and given judgement? I imagine the raptured Saints.

"And they lived and reigned with Christ.." - they? The martyred trib saints? I thought raptured Saints would also live and reign 1k years with Christ?

 

 

I find it best to be silent when scripture is silent, so will I in this case.  Scripture does not say who is sitting on the thrones.  We do know that we will judge angels, nothing about us judging anything else.

 

As for who will reign with Christ for the 1000 years, scripture tells who that will be. Throughout my studies, I have not found scripture telling me that anyone else but those mentioned above will live and reign with Christ during the millennium.  If you have found scripture saying so, please provide it. 

 

Matthew 19:28

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes ofIsrael.

 

 

The saints will judge the wicked both angels and humans 

 

Matthew 12:41-42

King James Version (KJV)

41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

 

 

 

First, there is no mention of how many thrones was seen in Revelation 19.  Second, those being judged are specifically named, not the whole world for all time.

 

Blanket statements can't be made in this judgement.

[missmuffet]

 

 

Thunder

 

All the Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments will be dealt out.  It is prophecy.  Jacobs trouble lasts for how long?  3 1/2 years.  When does it start?  When the A/D is set up.  When does it all end, At Armageddon.  If one looks at the first three Trumpet blasts.  The First is 1/3rd of the earth is burned up;  The second, something like a huge mountain, all ablaze.  The third, and a great star, blazing like a torch.  Now go to the 4th Trumpet - 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars were struck, so that a 1/3rd of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.  1/3 less daylight.  Matt 24:22 - If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive; but for the sake of the elect (Israel) those days will be shortened.

 

For when Israel sees the A/D standing flee,  How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers.  For then there will be great distress, unequaled.  All of mankind living on this planet gets a full blast of these judgments, Israel is protected from them, the rest of mankind is not.  The judgments do not stop.  They all unfold to their full extent.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Matthew 24:19 I wonder what this is saying,I wonder what will happen. 

 

Bopeep

 

Inadequate diet, extreme stress, hardship.  More pronounced with a women with one in the hopper or one trying to make milk for her infant.  Changing diapers, with what.  Most everything left on the shelf at home.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Makes sense Marv  People are really confused about the disappearance of the Malaysian plane and there were only a handful of people compared to the disappearance of many more in the rapture.

[rebbell]

There will be blood as deep as the bridle bits. 144,000 will be sealed. Sealed? Hum, the Word tells us; we are sealed by the Holy Ghost. Hum. 144,000 out of 14 billion, close to that, in the world right now. Looks kinda like in the days of Noah, when 8 people were saved from the flood. This time it will be fire. Fire will rain from the heavens. God is going to cleanse the land again. There will be blood as deep as the bridle bits. Are you sealed, knowing the KING and the Spirit of Truth that ministers to you the Truth of His Word?  Are you ready? Do you know the KING? KNOWING HIM and knowing about Him are two different kinds of knowing. Jesus the Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. HE, alone, is the open door.

 

God bless

[missmuffet]

 

The expression "falling away" also means "depart" in Greek. The antichrist cannot appear as long as the 'church' is here. The church has to "depart" before the tribulation can begin.

 

As to whether pregnant mothers and the unborn children - they will both be alive and most likely the same. Do you think for one moment that God would let a christian mother not see or get to know the child she was carrying when the rapture occurred? Just as an aborted child will be in heaven so will the unborn. God who made man and woman to have children would not separate the family.

 

In the Greek, the word is apostasia, apostasy in English ( or "from-standing"), G646.  This is not pointing to the rapture, but a forsaking from the truth.

 

Apostasy means "a defiance of an established system or authority;a rebellion;an abandonment or breach of faith".

Apostasy will only get worse as Christ's return approaches Matthew 24:10 This could very well point to the tribulation after the rapture.

[OneLight]

 

 

The expression "falling away" also means "depart" in Greek. The antichrist cannot appear as long as the 'church' is here. The church has to "depart" before the tribulation can begin.

 

As to whether pregnant mothers and the unborn children - they will both be alive and most likely the same. Do you think for one moment that God would let a christian mother not see or get to know the child she was carrying when the rapture occurred? Just as an aborted child will be in heaven so will the unborn. God who made man and woman to have children would not separate the family.

 

In the Greek, the word is apostasia, apostasy in English ( or "from-standing"), G646.  This is not pointing to the rapture, but a forsaking from the truth.

 

Apostasy means "a defiance of an established system or authority;a rebellion;an abandonment or breach of faith".

Apostasy will only get worse as Christ's return approaches Matthew 24:10 This could very well point to the tribulation after the rapture.

 

 

Sorry Sister, that does not make sense.  How can people turn away when they were never following?  In other words, if the saved are all taken, who is left with fain to turn from faith???  That is why is cannot mean what you suggested.

 

In 2 Thess. 2:3 (Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition), the word apostasia does not refer to genuine Christians who depart from the faith, but mere professors who, without divine grace, succumb to the Satanic deception of the Antichrist.   (The Complete Word Study Dictionary)

[missmuffet]

Matthew 13:24-30

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares

²⁴ Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; ²⁵ but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. ²⁶ But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. ²⁷ So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ ²⁸ He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ ²⁹ But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

[Montana Marv]

Or could it be the falling away to evolution and away from creation.  Oh I trust in Jesus, I just don't believe God in the 7 days thing.  This would be a so-so type of believer.   Or I trust in Jesus, but I don't believe in the virgin birth.  Or I trust in Jesus, I just don't believe that God will send anyone to the Lake of Fire.  Or  I trust in Jesus, I just don't believe what the Bible says.  Too much of, I trust, but I do not believe.

 

This could be Apostasy.  I trust, but I don't believe.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[missmuffet]

1 John 2:19 Pretend believers.Those who turn away from Christ never trusted Him to begin with.Those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers,and they never were.

[Littlelambseativy]

The best and fullest explanation  of "falling away" is Jack Kelly's below.

 

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure?

Tuesday, June 30th, 2009

 

• Interpreting Verses
• New Testament
• Rapture

Q.  The other night I was listening to (a well known teacher)  concerning the rapture. He brought up 2nd Thess. 2:3 where in a lot of translations it’s called the falling away or the “apostate Church! He said that the Greek word  seemed to also mean “departing” which would be more evidence for the pre – tribulation rapture. I have the Geneva translation and they use “the departing” instead of “the falling away”!  I’m sure that  others have written to you concerning this! I do think that as the days progress with time closing in that not only is this great news but we will have more understanding concering the times (as long as it’s fitting in the scriptures).

 

A. One of the roots of the Greek word apostasia in 2 Thes. 2:3 is aphistemi.  It can mean to withdraw, depart, or remove, in addition to falling away.  Before the King James was published, departure was the accepted translation for apostasia.  Another related word is apostasion.  It’s the masculine form of apostasia, and is the Greek word for divorce.  Since all three of these words convey the idea of a change of mind, it appears that falling away is the more appropriate translation.

As tempting as it is to use the pre-King James understanding of 2 Thes. 2:3, you don’t need it to show that Paul taught the Thessalonians a pre-trib rapture.  Paul said that before the Day of the Lord can come, there has to be a falling away and the anti-Christ has to be revealed. Then in verse 7 he said that before the anti- Christ can be revealed the restrainer has to be taken out of the way (literally taken from among).  This restrainer is widely accepted to be the Holy Spirit resident in the Church. If so Paul was telling them that the church will have to be gone before the anti-Christ can be revealed.

In 1 Thes. 1:10 he promised that the Lord will rescue us from the time of His wrath. In 1 Thes. 2:19 He said we will be with Jesus when He comes, and in 1 Thes. 3:13 he said we’d be in the Presence of God when the time comes for the 2nd Coming. In 1 Thes. 4:16-17 he described how the Lord will take us to be with Him, and in 1 Thes. 5:9 he repeated that we’re not appointed to suffer wrath.  Since the time of wrath will have already come by the end of Rev. 6, and since the Church is in view in Heaven in Rev. 5, that puts the rapture in Rev. 4 taking us away from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath.

 

When you read the two letters together, you can see that  the second letter would have been unnecessary unless he had taught them that the rapture would precede the End Times judgments.

[rollinTHUNDER]

The best and fullest explanation  of "falling away" is Jack Kelly's below.

 

2 Thes. 2:3, Falling Away Or Departure?

Tuesday, June 30th, 2009

• Interpreting Verses
• New Testament
• Rapture

Q.  The other night I was listening to (a well known teacher)  concerning the rapture. He brought up 2nd Thess. 2:3 where in a lot of translations it’s called the falling away or the “apostate Church! He said that the Greek word  seemed to also mean “departing” which would be more evidence for the pre – tribulation rapture. I have the Geneva translation and they use “the departing” instead of “the falling away”!  I’m sure that  others have written to you concerning this! I do think that as the days progress with time closing in that not only is this great news but we will have more understanding concering the times (as long as it’s fitting in the scriptures).

 

A. One of the roots of the Greek word apostasia in 2 Thes. 2:3 is aphistemi.  It can mean to withdraw, depart, or remove, in addition to falling away.  Before the King James was published, departure was the accepted translation for apostasia.  Another related word is apostasion.  It’s the masculine form of apostasia, and is the Greek word for divorce.  Since all three of these words convey the idea of a change of mind, it appears that falling away is the more appropriate translation.

As tempting as it is to use the pre-King James understanding of 2 Thes. 2:3, you don’t need it to show that Paul taught the Thessalonians a pre-trib rapture.  Paul said that before the Day of the Lord can come, there has to be a falling away and the anti-Christ has to be revealed. Then in verse 7 he said that before the anti- Christ can be revealed the restrainer has to be taken out of the way (literally taken from among).  This restrainer is widely accepted to be the Holy Spirit resident in the Church. If so Paul was telling them that the church will have to be gone before the anti-Christ can be revealed.

In 1 Thes. 1:10 he promised that the Lord will rescue us from the time of His wrath. In 1 Thes. 2:19 He said we will be with Jesus when He comes, and in 1 Thes. 3:13 he said we’d be in the Presence of God when the time comes for the 2nd Coming. In 1 Thes. 4:16-17 he described how the Lord will take us to be with Him, and in 1 Thes. 5:9 he repeated that we’re not appointed to suffer wrath.  Since the time of wrath will have already come by the end of Rev. 6, and since the Church is in view in Heaven in Rev. 5, that puts the rapture in Rev. 4 taking us away from the time, the place and any relation to God’s Wrath.

 

When you read the two letters together, you can see that  the second letter would have been unnecessary unless he had taught them that the rapture would precede the End Times judgments.

I'm sure many pre-trib fans will fall for this hook, line and sinker. I just wonder, though, will they ever stop trying to find clever ways to promote this myth? This just confirms what Paul said:

2 Timothy 4:1-4

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

Some may receive the term "falling away" as meaning departure from the earth (rapture), but scripture plainly says that there will be a departure or falling away from the faith.

 

1 Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

How ironic it would be if the believers who fall for this theory, are the very same ones who fall away when they see the seven year covenant signed and they are still here.  Undoubtedly, many of them won't be prepared for what lies ahead, because they have been taught that they won't see any hard times at all because the rapture is imminent and nothing else needs to happen before the rapture.  Then the world economy will collapse and they will be needing many essentials to provide for their families, but won't be able to get them without taking the mark of the beast.  Wake-up people!  Don't put your faith in something that is so uncertain.  It's nothing more than gambling.  The wise virgins were ready because they prepared and were able to endure to the end. I'm not saying this to provoke anyone to anger, but hopefully some of you will consider the cost.

 

 

Cheers