Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Matt36]

 

 

 

 

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Just a couple.  It's one thing to struggle @ times with Scripture....it's quite another to give personal advice authoritatively based on contrived opinions.

 

 

Target audience is everyone Enoch. And its a mute point anyway.

 

Why because you said so?  Or that it's written in Greek?  And, how can the point be Silent?  Mute = Silent. 

 

If you were going for "moot" here, it's often practice to provide rationale...... otherwise, it's just Baseless Labeling.

 

Beast as in the AC, i already showed you that the greek translates as a dominion of a man. You cannot bring in private interpretation of scripture, you must use the original words, not english translation words to find the real meaning. You must allow scripture to interprete scripture.

 

 

Strong's 2342   //  yhrion  //  therion   //  thay-ree'-on  //

 

1) an animal

2) a wild animal, wild beast, beast

3) metaph. a brutal, bestial man, savage, ferocious

 

(Revelation 14:11) "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

 

(Revelation 13:4) "And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?"

 

(Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

 

(Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

 

(Revelation 13:18) "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six."

 

All the same word in the Greek.  Context is King.

 

 

Are you saying that the antichrist comes from the bottomless pit? Daneil clearly states he is a man and so does revelation.

 

What Bible are you reading?  See Response and Scriptures above....with Special Attention to Rev 11:7, 13:18, 13:4.  The ac is a Hybrid (Beast and man) and so are the 10 Kings....Including the Final 7, 8 (little horn) counting the ac.... See Dan 2:43.

Bud, ill start answering any more questions you have when you have watched the video by chriss white. Reason is i need you to fully have a grasp of my position cause otherwise i need to take alot of time answering your questions that i dont have. If you want to remain pre trib then thats fine. But im interested in decent discussion and not just back and forth banter. if you really do want to know the truth or discuss with me then please watch the video. Sorry man, no offence intended, just sayin.

 

Edit: all those words for beast you posted in those verses as in anti christ are on the greek "therion" So....yes context is king, can you show me where in the context we are talking about animals and not end time destruction starring the antichrist? Remember seal 1 is already talking about the antichrist!!!

Edited April 19, 2014 by Matt36

[Montana Marv]

 

 

Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

Spock

 

By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved)  Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found).  Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations.  His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.  With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

Wow, you see or infer all that in those verses. Interesting. (Spock scratching his head shrugging his shoulders bewildered.)

I guess you guys see all the land masses as they are now just mystically moving across the ocean to reunite as Pangea. That sounds intriguing, but you don't see the problems that can occur with that happening so fast?

It looks like some of you have an even greater imagination than me, and yet I'm Spock! Lol

 

Spock

 

The earthquakes of the of the 6th Seal and 7th Bowl, could easily each last a week or more.  Think about it, All civilized structure will be brought down.  No power plants, water systems, sewage systems, natural gas and oil lines.  Power lines down, bridges down, highways gone, City and county streets gone.  Rivers impassable. Fires in large cities, no way to put them out.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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ill start answering any more questions you have when you have watched the video by chriss white. Reason is i need you to fully have a grasp of my position cause otherwise i need to take alot of time answering your questions that i dont have.

 

You sure had enough time to post Chris White's Biblically Unsupported Position before.  As mentioned, I have reviewed his material in the past and found it wanting (That's putting it Lightly)

 

 

But im interested in decent discussion and not just back and forth banter.

 

Translation: As long as we agree on Chris White's Biblically Unsupported Banter....we can then have a "decent" discussion.

 

 

if you really do want to know the truth

 

Yes, I do.  And I have it sitting right here in front of me.....it's of the Absolute Variety, called The Holy Bible.

 

 

can you show me where in the context we are talking about animals

 

Yes, for the 3rd time....

 

(Revelation 6:8) "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

 

It's in Context.

 

As opposed to he the ac/beast.....

 

(Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

 

See the Context?

 

 

Remember seal 1 is already talking about the antichrist!!!

 

Putting exclamation points on the end of statement doesn't offer any veracity, thereof.  It smacks of desperation.  And can you explain how the Antichrist is revealed in Seal #1 when the ac isn't released from the bottomless pit until after the 5th Trumpet Sounds?? ....

 

(Revelation 9:1) "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."

 

(Revelation 11:7) "And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them."

 

See the connection...... Bottomless Pit and Beast?

[Spock]

Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

Spock

 

By two specific earthquakes; The first being, 6th Seal - every mountain and island was removed from its place (islands are found, but moved)  Secondly, 7th Bowl - Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. (islands are not found).  Zech 9:10b - He will proclaim peace to the nations.  His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of the earth.  With all the continents reunited, Jerusalem will be the center of the land masses.  Zech 14:16 - Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

In regards to the Islands not being found i beleive that the earth quake preceeding it will cause tsnami and wipe those islands out. Just my opinion. I find it difficult to beleive that the continents will reconnect, but its only a small issue, not something to fight about.

Bingo! You and I are one on this issue, Matt. I think these tsunamis we have witnessed the past ten years are a preview of bigger things to come which will wipe out all islands.

If I'm living in Hawaii, I might be thinking of moving to Montana. (In honor of my dear brother here.)

[Enoch2021]

Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

Let me ask one simple question for anyone. Some believe the continents will be reunited. Please explain how and when that is going to happen? Also, where in scripture is that?

Thanks.

 

 

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Wow, this thread is pretty hard to follow with all of these broken quotes.

 

Allow me to lift the fog for you....

 

When you see a Quote Box....like this:

 

xxxxxxxxxx

 

This is when you take what the responder says "Specifically" then beneath you list either support or refutation in bullet statements....

 

 

yyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

yyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

yyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

It's particularly useful when the responder responds with many points regarding either The Main Subject, connections to the Main Subject, or sidetracks.  It affords focus on Specifics and minimizes confusion and convolutions.

 

Think of them as Transitions.  Like a written Exam with many questions and the answers directly underneath.

 

Savvy?

[ARGOSY]

 

I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way.

As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating.

 

 

Point me to the post where you showed me how the events of Rev 6:15-17 come before the second coming. I haven't yet heard your or Enoch2021's explanation of Rev 6:15-17. I prefer to discuss these issues and not debate them but to discuss issues there has to be an exchange of conversation. I have given my version of Rev 6:15-17, still awaiting your version?  If you think it occurs before the second coming, why are is mankind hiding from the face of God, and the wrath of the Lamb?

[ARGOSY]

 

I believe I find the truth through prayer and reading the scriptures. Faith comes from hearing the word, and this is the manner in which I find truth, and have faith in such truths.

 

Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means. Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming. I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming. If you do have the truth on this, could you kindly communicate it to those following this thread.

Yes, as we do read in Romans 10:17 "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.", yet the verse does not say that truth comes this way.

As for being told how your theory is wrong, you have been, many times. Unfortunately, you have not been listening, only debating.

 

 

 

I have been deliberately ignoring all the side issues you and Enoch2021 have been introducing, in order to hear what your view is on mankind hiding in caves on a day of wrath, and how this can possibly occur before the second coming.  Until you can explain this, all your other side issues are minor compared to your view that there is a day God's of wrath at the 6th seal and also again at the 7th bowl.

[ARGOSY]

 

 

 

 

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Could you kindly tell me what you believe Rev 6:15-17 means.

 

Sure no problem, See Below

 

 

Mankind hides in caves before the presence of the Lamb on a day of wrath. You believe this occurs before the second coming.

 

What in the World is this? 

 

I have never made such a nonsensical claim.  In fact, this is your position.....

 

"I'm saying that the second coming definitely occurs in Revelation 6 during the 6th seal...."   Here...

 

and here:  

 

I do believe that all the Seals/Trumpets/Vials occur Prior to the Second Coming in Rev 19.  Which I've been saying for over 50 posts and 3 weeks

 

 

The "Presence" of the Lamb??  The "Presence" is something you just added.  Can you show me where in these passages where Christ is Present on the Earth??....

 

(Revelation 6:15-17) "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

It say's Hide us from the "face of Him" that sitteth on the Throne.  So the Father is still on the Throne in Heaven.  "and from the wrath of the Lamb"....where does it say Christ is on the Earth?

 

Moreover, this is in response to the 6th Seal being opened and these events.....

 

(Revelation 6:12-14) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

 

 

Furthermore the 7th Seal is yet to be open here.....you still have the 7th Seal, 7 Trumpets and 7 Vials (Filled with GOD'S WRATH)... Who's GOD'S Wrath being poured out on here? ....

 

(Revelation 15:7) "And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever."

 

According to your Position, Christ's Second Coming occurs in-between the 6th and 7th Seal 

 

And, To name just a few......

 

The 144,000 haven't been Sealed Yet.  The Tribulation Saints haven't been killed yet.  The ac/beast and the locusts aren't released from the Bottomless Pit until after the Fifth Trumpet in Chapter 9.  The Grapes and Vine are yet to be tossed into the Great Winepress. The 2 Witnesses have yet to make an appearance.  Babylon has even yet to be mentioned. Not to mention everything that happens to: the sea, the earth, sun/moon.  The Great River Euphrates drying up.  The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven with the Church and Christ with the armies that follow HIM (Including HIS wife) in Chapter 19.

 

I could have went on here for quite some time.... hopefully you get the picture.

 

 

I believe you are supporting a strange doctrine if you believe that there is a day of wrath and appearance of the Lamb before the second coming.

 

No, I surely don't. It's you looking @ yourself in the mirror then projecting.

 

The Wrath of GOD are the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials (It's called the Great Tribulation).......Culminating in the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in Rev 19:

 

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

 

Thanks for your explanation Enoch, but I don't think your explanation is complete , because you are not really explaining what happens here, when the "heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place." And also when "the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us  from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come"

 

Do you believe that some time before the second coming, the heavens will recede like a scroll? Do you believe when they hide from the "face of him who sits on the throne" this is symbolic and not literal? When I read these verses I regard the heavens literally receding like a scroll, and mankind literally hiding from God, a second coming type event, and I'm battling to understand what you believe is happening during the context of that earthquake?

[Enoch2021]

 

 

 

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No I believe all those things are very literal.

 

 

For the great day of their wrath has come"

 

Yes, this is where GOD's Wrath Begins.  But there is much more Wrath to come with the: 7th Seal, 7 Trumpets, and Seven Vials ("Filled Up" with the Wrath of GOD Rev 15:1)

 

John tells you "After these".  After what?  What's the Antecedent? ---------> After the 1st - 6th Seals.  That means it's continuing.....

 

(Revelation 7:1) "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

 

When I read these verses I regard the heavens literally receding like a scroll, and mankind literally hiding from God, a second coming type event,

 

The Second Coming is Coming....just not then.  If it was HIS Literal Second Coming then Chapter 8 would be this right after the Marriage Supper.....

 

(Revelation 19:11-16) "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.  {12} His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.  {13} And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.  {14} And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.  {15} And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

Then Chapter 9 would be The Millennium.

 

As mentioned previously; where do these occur in your scenario (just a few).....

 

The 144,000 haven't been Sealed Yet.  The Tribulation Saints haven't been killed yet.  The ac/beast and the locusts aren't released from the Bottomless Pit until after the Fifth Trumpet in Chapter 9.  The Grapes and Vine are yet to be tossed into the Great Winepress. The 2 Witnesses have yet to make an appearance.  Babylon has even yet to be mentioned. Not to mention everything that happens to: the sea, the earth, sun/moon.  The Great River Euphrates drying up.

 

 

and I'm battling to understand what you believe is happening during the context of that earthquake

 

That's easy, What does it say.....

 

(Revelation 6:12-17) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:  {17} For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

That's exactly what I believe  :rolleyes: .

 

Anything more than what it says is contrived and Adding to The WORD.  I will warn you also.....not a good idea (Revelation 22:18) "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

 

Then John, in the very next Passage immediately after the events of the 6th Seal, Basically Says; Lets Continue, it's not over.....

 

(Revelation 7:1) "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree."

 

Implying that they must have come out because we have 13 More Chapters to go until Christ Rides the White Horse with the armies (Including "The Church") following HIM.

[Montana Marv]

Spoke

 

Here is your quote from post # 74 -  If I'm living in Hawaii, I might be thinking of moving to Montana. (In honor of my dear brother here.)

 

I do not think one wants to be in the Western Hemisphere.  Based on what I think;  The 4th Seal, Rev 6:8b - They were given power over 1/4th of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by wild beasts of the earth.  The approximate population of the Western Hemisphere (including Australia) is fairly close to 1/4th of the present world population.  Yet this same area is exactly 1/3rd of the total world land mass.  The 1st Trumpet of Rev 8:7 - 1/3rd of the earth was burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.  What usually happens when there is a sever plague (in the past);  Bodies were burned to help cleanse.

 

Really there is no safe area.  The area East of the Euphrates River and past India are where the 1/3rd of mankind is killed by the 200,000,000 army from the East (Rev 9:18, 5th Trumpet), by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that come out of their mouths (horses).

 

In Christ

Montana Marv