Post Tribbers - Please explain

[Montana Marv]

 

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand the point of the question. What does an angel spreading the gospel have to do with whether post-tribbers are there or not?

By the way, I'm not a post-tribber, nor a pre-tribber, I'm just not sure what your post is asking?

 

Oakwood

 

My point being; if an angel is now proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission is now closed for the Church.  For that was our duty.  Also if the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols, the Post -Trib group would have to be included in the "rest of mankind".  I am trying to sway them away from their doctrine.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[OakWood]

 

 

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand the point of the question. What does an angel spreading the gospel have to do with whether post-tribbers are there or not?

By the way, I'm not a post-tribber, nor a pre-tribber, I'm just not sure what your post is asking?

 

Oakwood

 

My point being; if an angel is now proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission is now closed for the Church.  For that was our duty.  Also if the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols, the Post -Trib group would have to be included in the "rest of mankind".  I am trying to sway them away from their doctrine.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Why so?

A Trib church would be in no position to preach the gospel anyway , at least not openly, nor to a wide audience. They would be under the thumb of the Beast. They would be in hiding or at the very least subjected to serious restrictions. They could witness locally, but they would have no Global reach. Why do you think that just because God provides alternative witnesses that this would mean that the Church will not be present? If an angel is sent to preach or even the two witnesses are sent, why do you automatically assume that all the other Christians have been raptured?

[Montana Marv]

 

 

 

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand the point of the question. What does an angel spreading the gospel have to do with whether post-tribbers are there or not?

By the way, I'm not a post-tribber, nor a pre-tribber, I'm just not sure what your post is asking?

 

Oakwood

 

My point being; if an angel is now proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission is now closed for the Church.  For that was our duty.  Also if the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols, the Post -Trib group would have to be included in the "rest of mankind".  I am trying to sway them away from their doctrine.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Why so?

A Trib church would be in no position to preach the gospel anyway , at least not openly, nor to a wide audience. They would be under the thumb of the Beast. They would be in hiding or at the very least subjected to serious restrictions. They could witness locally, but they would have no Global reach. Why do you think that just because God provides alternative witnesses that this would mean that the Church will not be present? If an angel is sent to preach or even the two witnesses are sent, why do you automatically assume that all the other Christians have been raptured?

 

Oakwood

 

If there were to be a tribulation Church; The Great Commission would still be in effect.  Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel.  In prison, at home, at work.  We are His light where ever we are.  There would be no need for an angel flying in midair to also proclaim this same gospel.  No angel doing this proclaiming of the Gospel over the past 1980 or so years since the beginning of the Church.  Now when the Bride/Church is gone, there would be a need for an angel to proclaim this same Gospel.  The Bride is in the Fathers House, we are gone, no one left to proclaim the gospel, except an angel flying in midair to replace the duties of the Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Matt36]

 

 

 

 

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand the point of the question. What does an angel spreading the gospel have to do with whether post-tribbers are there or not?

By the way, I'm not a post-tribber, nor a pre-tribber, I'm just not sure what your post is asking?

 

Oakwood

 

My point being; if an angel is now proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission is now closed for the Church.  For that was our duty.  Also if the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols, the Post -Trib group would have to be included in the "rest of mankind".  I am trying to sway them away from their doctrine.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Why so?

A Trib church would be in no position to preach the gospel anyway , at least not openly, nor to a wide audience. They would be under the thumb of the Beast. They would be in hiding or at the very least subjected to serious restrictions. They could witness locally, but they would have no Global reach. Why do you think that just because God provides alternative witnesses that this would mean that the Church will not be present? If an angel is sent to preach or even the two witnesses are sent, why do you automatically assume that all the other Christians have been raptured?

 

Oakwood

 

If there were to be a tribulation Church; The Great Commission would still be in effect.  Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel.  In prison, at home, at work.  We are His light where ever we are.  There would be no need for an angel flying in midair to also proclaim this same gospel.  No angel doing this proclaiming of the Gospel over the past 1980 or so years since the beginning of the Church.  Now when the Bride/Church is gone, there would be a need for an angel to proclaim this same Gospel.  The Bride is in the Fathers House, we are gone, no one left to proclaim the gospel, except an angel flying in midair to replace the duties of the Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

Hey Montana.

 

Nice work on rightly dividing the word.

 

I feel you are spot on the money and i myself had not seen that inf that passage of scripture that you mentioned, good job.

 

So you feel that that passage shows that the angels are proclaiming the gospel because the church age is over this the church is NOT present. I agree with this entirely.

 

I guess where we differ is that if your pre trib then you say the church isnt present during the tribulation at all. Where as i believe they are present but not at the time of the angels proclaiming the gospel in  ^Rev14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

 

My view is that the church is present right up to chapter 10 which is before 14.

 

^Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

It is well established that the Mystery is the church and called a mystery by the prophets because it was not revealed at that time what it was. Now we know what that mystery is and it ends in REV 10:7 BEFORE the restoration of Israel.

[Matt36]

OK Enoch, lets Rock and Roll once again My words are in Blue.

 

 

The context of thess is jacobs trouble shown here, 2 thess2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; ....7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 

 

So we clearly see that the restrainer is NOT taken away untill AFTER the man of sin is revealed which happens mid point in the trib.

2. "and at that time thy people shall be delivered," and so they are during Jacobs trouble.

 

You are not rightly dividing The WORD as I have mention numerous times.  Daniel is speaking of "His" People------------Israel.  2 Thess is speaking to "The Church".   Daniel couldn't speak to "The Church" because The "Mystery' wouldn't be "revealed" until Eph 3.   Also, please review 2 Thess 2:3-9 it clearly shows the "he" is removed (Holy Spirit), THEN that Wicked is Revealed.

 

Also please review "Falling Away" (Apostasia) and what it may mean: 

 

And it's not mid-point of "tribulation" it's mid Daniel's 70th Week.  Only the Last Half of that week is Great Tribulation.

 

"Jacobs Trouble" is referring to Israel sir, not the Church.

 

Rightly dividing the word means that we use scripture to interpret scripture. We dont let "church doctrine" interpret scripture.

 

I totally agree that Dan is speaking to Israel hence why i used the term "Jacobs trouble". You are also correct that in Thess the target audience is the church. But if the church is still present in rev until chapter 10 when the mystery ends and both are speaking of the same topic, the ac, then i dont see any issues, You only get a conflict if your pre trib and you have to wiggle around the scripture to make it all work.

 

Please tell me how the 70th week which is jacobs trouble, 7 years long and the ac covenant 7 years long how shall the mid point not be in the middle??? I just dont follow your math here. 7 years fits into 7 years with the same start/end point simultaneously, proving without a doubt that the ac is revealed mid point. We know for a fact that the ac is present doing his thing in the first seal. But i dont beleive he is revealed untill later, i think he works behind the scene. Rev 6:1  And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

² And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

If the last half is great tribulation and it is but its not called that, then where does the day of the Lord fit in? Remember its at least 5 months long, propably much much longer.

 

In rev 6 we see the inhabiters of the earth proclaiming that the WRATH OF GOD has arrived.  ^Rev6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Then in chapter 8 we see it being implemented for the first time in revelation. Thus this is the beginning of the Day of the Lord.

 

Now if the people of the earth are claiming the Day of Wrath has just arrived, what was going on BEFORE this?? I mean we had 6 seals opened but none of which were seen as Gods wrath. So as you see, scripture interprets scripture and thats "rightly dividing the word."

 

 

You said that the restrainer restrains satan, I also agree. But what is satan doing during the tribulation?  Rev 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

One would think he would need restraining at one point, especially Rev 12:7 7

 

 

Why?  "He" (The Restrainer) Left with "The Church" prior to Daniel's 70th Week.  There is no more "Restraining" needed.  Why would the Holy Spirit be restraining GOD'S WRATH?

 

And this "satan's Wrath" thing is getting on my last nerve.  satan can do nothing without GOD letting him do it or empowering him to accomplish GOD'S Purpose!!  The Great Tribulation is GOD'S Wrath the Whole Book of Revelation is GOD'S Wrath.

 

No the entire book is NOT God wrath, thats only in the Day of the Lord. See last comment.

 

 

No, again your english translation is incorrect. Ill explain it again and ill try to be a little clearer as i wasnt that clear last time. [ ] here is the proper text:

 

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song , saying, “ Worthy are you to take  the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every language, people, and nation. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament)

 

The word FOR that is in bold in the verse the greek word is Ho. The english translation has it as "us" but that is incorrect. Here is the meaning of "Ho", ὁ δέ," the one ... the other, some ... others, but he, but others". Now-where in the greek does it mean "US".

 

My AKJV is spot on!!

 

(Revelation 5:9) "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

 

Firstly,  the word "for" isn't in contention??    The word "us" is (in your mind).  And it's "hemas" Strong's # 2248....it means "Us"

 

Second and more importantly....What Codices is the Interlinear using? If it's part of The Westcott and Hort ensemble, you have Major Problems (See here): 

 

Well i guess strongs is incorrect also as no other translation has it as "Us". Only the King James.

 

New International Version
And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

New Living Translation
And they sang a new song with these words: "You are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.

English Standard Version
And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

New American Standard Bible
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

King James Bible
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And they sang a new song: You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slaughtered, and You redeemed people for God by Your blood from every tribe and language and people and nation.

International Standard Version
They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered. With your blood you purchased people for God from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

 

American Standard Version
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou was slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

 

English Revised Version
And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation,

 

Matthew Henry's interpretation,

And didst redeem unto God by thy blood out of every kindred, etc. Though the reading "us" is supported by various manuscripts, and similarly the first person is used in ver. 10. yet, on the whole, it seems better to omit it, the phrase being taken in a partitve sense - "Thou didst redeem unto God by thy blood some out of every kindred, etc., and hast made them, etc., and they shall reign." Again, "Thou didst purchase us at the price of thy blood" would, perhaps, give the sense more correctly; for such is the force of the words, "in thy blood" (ἐν τῷ αἵματι).

 

So again, the correct terms are as follows,

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song , saying, “ Worthy are you to take  the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every language, people, and nation. (Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament)

 

The word FOR that is in bold in the verse the greek word is Ho. The english translation has it as "us" but that is incorrect. Here is the meaning of "Ho", ὁ δέ," the one ... the other, some ... others, but he, but others". Now-where in the greek does it mean "US".

 

 

Because while yes they are tribulation saints after all the rapture is after the mid point so yes they would be tribulation saints. If you got raptured after the mid point wouldnt that make you a tribulation saint Enoch??

 

This is a Logical Fallacy: Affirming The Consequent:

 

If the Rapture is after the midpoint then we would observe Saints after the midpoint.

 

If P then Q.
Q.
Therefore P.

 

First you must prove "The Rapture" is after the "Mid-Point".  More Importantly........Tribulation Saints are not "The Church".

 

We do see saints after the mid point, and i have proved the rapture is after the mid point, its in chapter 7 in between seal 6 and 7.

 

What scripture do you have to support your theory that tribulation saints are not the church. Ive proven WITH SCRIPTURE and not church doctrine that the church is present until Rev 10. ^Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

I mean that is as clear as day. No church doctrines, no fudging, just letting scripture interpret scripture, rightly dividing the word.

 

 

God doesnt pour out his wrath on the church. thats why my view is named PRE_WRATH. The purpose is multiperpose and takes too long to list and explain.

 

GOD's Wrath is being poured out @ the Opening of the Seals.....@ the Latest the 6th Seal, because he says so:

 

(Revelation 6:12-16) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

You say your view is "Pre-Wrath" but then say The Tribulation Saints are the Raptured in Rev 7:14    And they came out of Great Tribulation....

 

(Revelation 7:14) "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

How can they come "out of Wrath" and be Pre-Wrath??

 

Also, Please show me Jesus coming in the Clouds with the Trump of GOD in Revelation 7?

 

The Purpose of Great Tribulation is.....  (Hosea 5:15) "I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early."

 

Lol Enoch, you so funny bro Here you back me up again, you really ought to stop this Enoch. Its bad for the pre trib doctrine.

 

Yes the wrath og God starts in the seals and you Rightly (this time) use Rev 6 as the start point for his wrath. Previously you claimed all the seals from the begining of the trib was Gods wrath. But you beginning to get a grasp of the pre wrath view now, thats good bud, good stuff.

 

But like i said before, seal six shows that the wrath of God is only imminent, they see its about to be unleashed. Rev 8 when the 7th seal is opened is the actual works of the wrath of God and the beginning of the Day of the Lord. Chapter 7 in the middle is the rapture.

 

I cant show a verse that shows Jesus coming in the clouds in chapter 7 which is during seal 6 and before seal 7. But we do see the skys open as a scroll and the sun not giving its light and the moon turning to blood. So if thats not clouds, major ones, than im lost to what it might be.

 

However, can you show a verse thats before the tribulation that A. we get raptured out beforehand. B. That it has clouds.

 

Now lets backtrack a little, here is the verse you are refering too,

 

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

Opps, thats MATTHEW TWENTY FOUR VERSE THIRTY!!!  Surely Enoch you remember claiming that Matt 24 had nothing to do with the church as it was written to the Jews and when i tryed to use Matt 24 you admonished me saying :thats for the Jews"

 

You cant have it both ways Enoch my buddy. Holes holes holes as all i see in church doctrines.

 

Well i should be the one asking that question Enoch and i will, Can you show me in the "Original Texts",  where it says "Harpazo" ?? Or show the LORD "Coming in the Clouds" and the "Trump of GOD" before the tribulation starts?

 

It's Right here (and it Pre-70th Week of Daniel).....

 

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  {17} Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

 

(2 Thessalonians 2:5-8) "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  {6} And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.  {7} For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.  {8} And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"

 

caught up = "harpazo"

 

"The Church" = The 24 Elders, and they are already in Heaven in Chapter 4 when John arrives.

 

Ive proven that incorrect, yes they are elders but they are not the church and your whole church dictrine is centered around one word which is the incorrect one as i have shown above.

 

Where is this event in Revelation?  Well, it's not.....Therefore, it had to happen before.  What's not said is sometimes just as important as what is said.

 

Well you quoted the rapture, but i asked you to show me where the rapture is shown to be PRE TRIB in scripture. Your verses dont seem to have any pretribulational theme. I mean if your referring to the Holy spirit in your terms that somehow proves its pre tribulational, well that doesnt hold water unless you have a verse that shows he is taken out before the trib starts and you didnt supply any scripture showing this.

 

The wicked being revealed in mid trib, you cannot show a verse that says otherwise. But if you look at my other comments you see he isnt revealed toll mid term.

 

But in answer to your question, YES i can but its in rev 6 during the 6th seal, not 7.

 

Obviously the Day of the Lord ends at Armageddon. Its time period is some time after the mid point of the 70th week and continues until Armageddon is over.

 

You have obviously moved past your previous thought of "the day of the LORD" as 5 Months?

 

So the Day of the LORD is not a Specific Day it's a Time Period?  Probably The Great Tribulation in TOTO?  I can live with that.

 

I suppose I'm splitting hairs but Armageddon is a staging area, where the ac armies launch there attack on the believing Jewish Remnant.  The Lord Returns to Bozrah-----Petra Today:

 

(Isaiah 63:1-6) "Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.  {2} Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?  {3} I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.  {4} For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.  {5} And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.  {6} And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth."

 

and Marries up with....

 

(Revelation 19:15-16) "And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.  {16} And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

 

 

I never ever said it was 5 months, i have always maintained it is a least that long, up to 3.5 years long.

 

Note, fulness of the Gentiles. This was my context, the fullness of the gentiles comes in at Rev 10,

 

Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

So we see Enoch that the fullness of the gentiles is completed in Rev 10 when it says, the mystery of God should be finished. This gets in the way of your pre tribulation rapture doesnt it. Because you beleive the rapture finished the times of the church, but not so.

 

 

What in the World is This?

 

As I said, You're Equivocating (Fallacy): The "Mystery of GOD" in Rev 10 with the "Mystery of Israel's Blindness" in Romans. 

 

As I said, The Mystery is Israel's Blindness..... and the Mystery was revealed in the same Passage Romans 11:25.  To arbitrarily relate the two above is sloppy Exegesis @ best and incoherent @ worst.

 

In effect, you're saying: the "Mystery of GOD" in TOTO  = The "Mystery of the Fullness of the Gentiles"  

 

The only thing that this gets in the way of is Pedestrian Exegesis.

 

Exactly, once again brother Enoch, your backing me up lol

 

The mystery is the church and we all know that blindness has happened to Israel as foretold by the prophets during the "CHURCH AGE". After the mystery is finished, the angels start to proclaim the gospel and israel is saved. Thanks to Montana Marv for that one.

 

[Matt36]

I guess we havnt spoken alot about the doctrine of imminence, which in my view is exactly that, church doctrine.

 

Time to take a look at this because i believe its a fallacy and is NOT of God. This view is held by pre tribbers and only exists to serve that doctrine. However, lets take a look at what the bible actually says.

 

Lets set out what the pre trib doctrine actually teaches first.

 

According to popular belief the pre tribbers arrive at their conclusion by quoting Matt24, something they at the same time attribute as being written the the jews and is NOT relevant to the church.

 

^Matt24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

³⁰ And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

³¹ And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

⁴³ But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

 

 

But what people fail to realise is that Jesus is still talking about a post tribulation gathering.

 

The imminence doctrine rips this verse severely out of context and tries to attribute it to a pre tribulational rapture of the church.

 

Christ reminds the church of Sardis, ^{Rev 3:3} Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

 

So he is saying "WATCH"  or i will come upon you as a thief. After all Christ can only come as a thief in the night if you are found NOT watching for his return.

 

Paul says in ! Thess 5:2 ² For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

^{1 Thess 5:3} For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

The TRUTH is that Jesus Christs return is IMMINENT ONLY for those who are NOT watching. He then reassures the believers at Thessalonica with the following verse,

 

^{1 Thess5:4} But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

 

The return of the Lord cannot catch us off guard if you are watching because,

 

⁵ Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

⁶ Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

 

So what is it we are supposed to watch for? (If your a pre trib, there is nothing you can watch for if you believe in imminence as no signs can be given otherwise it cant be imminent right)

 

 

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

 

When the sky is darkened and the moon appears as blood. That is THE SIGN of his coming and that it is even at the door.

 

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

Now lets not forget also that many events MUST take place BEFORE Christ can return.

 

There are many events that must take place but lets just look at an obvious one.

 

The jews return to the Land. How can we have the events of revelation with no jews in the Land. Without Jews in the Land there is simply NO ISRAEL.

 

Now the doctrine of imminence alludes that the rapture is imminent all the way from the time Christs assention  till he actually returns.

 

How then could the doctrine of imminence be an effectual doctrine if prior to 1948 when Israel once again arrived on the scene and jews flocked from all over the planet to their homeland, how could he come if Israel wasnt there???

 

He cant can he! there is no way Christ can return without Israel being back in the land.

[OakWood]

 

 

 

 

As per Rev 14:6,7 - Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth; to every nation, tribe, language and people.  He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.  Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

v 9 - A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice; "If anyone worships the beast, and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he too will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath", v 12 - This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

 

And then Rev 9:20 - The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands, they did not stop worshiping demons and idols..........

 

So where do you Post Tribbers fit in to all this.  For this is all happening near the onset of the 70th Week, except for Rev 9:20. The Church spreading the gospel is now dispelled by an angel spreading the gospel.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

I don't understand the point of the question. What does an angel spreading the gospel have to do with whether post-tribbers are there or not?

By the way, I'm not a post-tribber, nor a pre-tribber, I'm just not sure what your post is asking?

 

Oakwood

 

My point being; if an angel is now proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Great Commission is now closed for the Church.  For that was our duty.  Also if the rest of mankind did not stop worshiping demons and idols, the Post -Trib group would have to be included in the "rest of mankind".  I am trying to sway them away from their doctrine.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Why so?

A Trib church would be in no position to preach the gospel anyway , at least not openly, nor to a wide audience. They would be under the thumb of the Beast. They would be in hiding or at the very least subjected to serious restrictions. They could witness locally, but they would have no Global reach. Why do you think that just because God provides alternative witnesses that this would mean that the Church will not be present? If an angel is sent to preach or even the two witnesses are sent, why do you automatically assume that all the other Christians have been raptured?

 

Oakwood

 

If there were to be a tribulation Church; The Great Commission would still be in effect.  Go out into all the world and preach the Gospel.  In prison, at home, at work.  We are His light where ever we are.  There would be no need for an angel flying in midair to also proclaim this same gospel.  No angel doing this proclaiming of the Gospel over the past 1980 or so years since the beginning of the Church.  Now when the Bride/Church is gone, there would be a need for an angel to proclaim this same Gospel.  The Bride is in the Fathers House, we are gone, no one left to proclaim the gospel, except an angel flying in midair to replace the duties of the Church.

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

 

 

Possibly, I guess. I've never thought of it like that, but I'm still undecided. At the moment Christian countries are the most powerful on Earth but they'll be oppressed under the Beast and God will be trying to gather as many of his lost sheep as possible, so he could send an angel even if we were still here. The Tribulation will not be like any time ever seen on Earth before.

[Montana Marv]

Matt

 

There are also two other warning angels (Rev 14:8-13);  The second foretelling Babylons fall, and the Third warning people not to take the mark of the beast or worship him.  In Rev 13 we see the mark of the beast being issued near the onset of the 70th week.  The beast had a fatal wound by a sword and was headed of this wound.  All the world was astonished and followed this beast.  A time of peace, and for only 3 1/2 years.  This same individual affirms or makes a 7 year decree or covenant with many,  This same individual breaks this covenant/decree when he sets up the A/D at the mid point of the week per (Dan 9:27).  This same individual was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. Some are killed with the sword, others go into captivity.

 

One must also understand Rev 12:12-14 - But woe to the earth and sea, because the devil has gone down to you.  He is filled with fury, because he knows his time is short.  When the dragon was that he had been hurled to earth, he perused the woman (Israel) who had given birth to the male child.  v14 The woman fled into the desert where she might be taken care of for 3 1/2 years.  This coincides with Matt 24:15-20, where they are to flee when the A/D is set up.  Who begins to chase them, not the one who set the A/D up, but the one who was hurled down out from Heaven (the devil or dragon which is Satan) and for 3 1/2 years they are protected.

 

So we see that the beast with the fatal wound has power for 3 1/2 years (first half of the week, peace of sorts), then another more powerful one comes on the scene (the devil, dragon or Satan) which tries to harm Israel for  3 1/2 years (second half of the week, total chaos begins).  This is where my timeline is viewed from.  This is how I see an overview of the 70 Week of Daniel. 

 

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Enoch2021]

 

 

===========================================================================================

 

 

You call this Rock & Roll?

 

 

Rightly dividing the word means that we use scripture to interpret scripture. We dont let "church doctrine" interpret scripture.

 

Thanks, when are you gonna start?  "Church Doctrine"?  Which Church are you referring to?

 

 

But if the church is still present in rev until chapter 10 when the mystery ends and both are speaking of the same topic, the ac, then i dont see any issues, You only get a conflict if your pre trib and you have to wiggle around the scripture to make it all work.

 

Still not letting go of the Fallacious Equivocation Between the "Mystery Of GOD" in Rev 10 with the "Mystery of Israels Blindness" in Romans, I see.  Then you admonish me on "wiggling"    

Pot meet Kettle.

 

Please tell me how the 70th week which is jacobs trouble, 7 years long and the ac covenant 7 years long how shall the mid point not be in the middle???

 

What is this, the 3rd or 4th time? (and Last).  Daniels 70th Week is 7 Years long.  Jacob's Trouble (nice stick save with Israel, by the way) is the last half of that 3 1/2 year period called by Jesus, the Great Tribulation.  It starts right after the Abomination of Desolation.

 

The first 3 1/2 Years Beginning with confirming the covenant is fallaciously called "Tribulation".  Please provide Scripture stating the First 3 1/2 years is called "Tribulation" (Last Time)??

 

proving without a doubt that the ac is revealed mid point.

 

Well the you have to subscribe to a "secret" covenant or one done via ESP.  Kind of hard to swallow, when he (the ac) is known as Mister Big Mouth in a Ton of Scriptures. 

 

 

If the last half is great tribulation and it is but its not called that

 

It's not called that, eh?  Except by Jesus HIMself.....

 

(Matthew 24:15-21) " When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)  {16}  Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:  {17}  Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:  {18}  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.  {19}  And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!  {20}  But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:  {21}  For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

Lets see if this will help:

 

Confirming of The Covenant  Then Immediately  Daniel's 70th Week Begins.

 

Abomination of Desolation  Then Immediately  Great Tribulation.

 

Is it Clear now?

 

 

then where does the day of the Lord fit in? Remember its at least 5 months long, propably much much longer.

 

The Day of the LORD = GOD'S Wrath, Rev Chapter 6 to the Culmination..... Jesus Second Coming in Rev Chapter 19.

 

Back to the 5 months again, eh? So the time of the Locusts tormenting men is the Day of The Lord?

 

In rev 6 we see the inhabiters of the earth proclaiming that the WRATH OF GOD has arrived.  Rev6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? Then in chapter 8 we see it being implemented for the first time in revelation.

 

I mean we had 6 seals opened but none of which were seen as Gods wrath.

 

So you say the Wrath of GOD has Arrived in Rev 6 but............"then in Chapter 8 we see it implemented for the first time"   Are you serious with this?

 

ahhh, cause you have to with your (self-concocted) Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Tribulation Saints in Chapter 7.  You can't have GOD'S Wrath being poured out before Your "Rapture" scenario.

 

This "New" concocted scenario is no doubt a result of my 2 previous responses to you, that went something like this....

 

You say your view is "Pre-Wrath" but then say The Tribulation Saints are the Raptured in Rev 7:14    And they came out of Great Tribulation....

 

(Revelation 7:14) "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

 

How can they come "Out of Wrath" and be Pre-Wrath??

 

Also, Please show me Jesus coming in the Clouds with the Trump of GOD in Revelation 7?

 

 

Unfortunately (for your "New" conjecture), GOD'S WORD puts a Exclamating Halt.....

 

(Revelation 6:12-16) "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  {13} And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  {14} And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  {15} And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  {16} And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

 

So "6 seals opened but none of which were seen as Gods wrath", eh??    :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Except for: the Kings/Great Men/Rich Men/Chief Captains/Mighty Men/ "Every" Free Man/Bondman. Who's left that didn't see?? What were they Hiding from? Lets see: Great Earthquake, Stars falling from Heaven, Heaven departing as a Scroll, Every mountain an island moved from their place..... "the wrath of the Lamb".  Wrath already started.....You need a "New Conjecture".

 

 

Well i guess strongs is incorrect also as no other translation has it as "Us". Only the King James.

 

Strongs and The Authorized King James Version are incorrect, eh?  You didn't click on that link I provided, did you?  Lets have a look see....

 

 

*Codex Alexandrinus: found around 1630 brought to England.  A fifth Century Manuscript containing the Entire New Testament.

 

*Codex Siniaticus: found early 1800's by German Scholar Constantin von Tischendorf discovered it in a trash can in St Catherine's Monastery @ the Traditional Mt Sinai.  Dated around 350 AD, is one of the 2 Oldest manuscripts of the Greek New Testament.

 

*Codex Vaticanus: in the Vatican Library since @ least 1481 but not made available to scholars until the middle of the 19th Century.  Dated around 325 AD, complete Greek New Testament.

 

All three believed to originate in Alexandria Egypt. Home of the Gnostics.  See 1 John 1:1, 4:2,3: shows a Rebuttal of Gnosticism.

 

In 156 AD, Irenaeus (talking about the Gnostics): "Wherefore they and their followers have betaken themselves to mutilating the Scriptures which they themselves have shortened."

 

*** There are over 3,000 confirmed contradictions between the Vaticanus and Siniaticus in the Four Gospels alone!!!!

 

All modern translations have their Primary Source documents buried in those 3 codices including the NIV.

 

Two Names to keep in mind who are basically the Fathers of all New Translations...... Brooke Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort....(affectionately known as Westcott and Hort) I would suggest you do your own Due Diligence with these 2 gentleman and come to your own conclusion, it won't take long (Their own words condemn them)....

 

Start here:

 

Ghostly Guild

Hermes Club

The Eranus Club....with Arthur Balfour

F.J.A Hort, The First Epistle of Peter, p. 39

Arthur Fenton Hort, Life and Letters of F.J.A. Hort, vol 1

F.J.A. Hort, Life of Hort, Vol 1 and 2

B.F. Westcott, Life and Letters of Wescott

B.F. Westcott, The Epistles of St. John

B.F. Westcott, The Epistle to the Hebrews

 

Also, Helena Blavatsky continues to "Pop Up" in connection with these 2 Gentlemen.  (DEFCON 1000000000000 Alert!!!!!!)

 

If you are reading these Bibles, I would suggest to STOP what you are doing this second and conduct an IN-DEPTH study of Westcott and Hort......

(NIV, NASB, NKJV, NRSV, NAB, REB, RSV, CEV, TEV, GNB, LIVING, PHILLIPS, NEW JERUSALEM, NEW CENTURY, and the New Word Translation) These are just some, check all source documents for your specific Bible.

 

 

***Last 12 Verses of Mark (16:9-20) Most Modern Translations there will be a marginal notation that these verses were added later and question the authenticity. They are not found in the 3 codices.

In 150 AD, several Centuries before these Codices,  Irenaeus quotes these verses in his commentary!  ahhh, Houston we have a problem!

2nd Century AD Hypolatus also comments on these verses.

 

 

Who would do a Dastardly thing like "Change GOD'S WORD? .......

 

(Genesis 3:1-4) "Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?  {2} And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:  {3} But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.  {4} And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"

 

satan's Classic Tactics 101:

 

1.  Create Doubt

2.  Outright Denial (Changing GOD'S WORD)

 

You have been so admonished...

 

(Proverbs 18:13) "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him."

 

(1 Thessalonians 5:21) "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good."

 

 

We do see saints after the mid point, and i have proved the rapture is after the mid point, its in chapter 7 in between seal 6 and 7.

 

What scripture do you have to support your theory that tribulation saints are not the church. Ive proven WITH SCRIPTURE and not church doctrine that the church is present until Rev 10. Rev10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

I mean that is as clear as day. No church doctrines, no fudging, just letting scripture interpret scripture, rightly dividing the word.

 

So your "clear as day" is a proven Twin Logical Fallacy Family (Affirming the Consequent and an Equivocation).  And you then you label it: no fudging, just letting scripture interpret scripture, rightly dividing the word?? Mind Boggling Preposterous-ness is my label.

 

 

Previously you claimed all the seals from the begining of the trib was Gods wrath.

 

Do me a Favor.  The next time you have the inclination to say "you claimed" go ahead and "Quote" Exactly VERBATIM, what I wrote.  It's more than irritating to correct what you've conjured.

 

 

Scratch that...  This is my last reply to you concerning this issue, it's well beyond tedious.  With the convolutions/contradictions/ and the incessant "You just backed me up bro" with a direct contradiction staring you in the face is well beyond reason. The Record is quite clear if anyone wishes to read.

 

Hope you Find The TRUTH

[mevosper]

 

 

when he (the ac) is known as Mister Big Mouth in a Ton of Scriptures

 

Enoch2021 - could you list these 'Ton of Scriptures' please? Thank you